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Anatolian Hypothesis: Lord Renfrew still a partial holdout

MOESAN said:
Yetos 1- a too common and unique word for a precise and limited meanings field with few phonetic changes is rather the proof of « recent » borrowing, I think (see the words for ‘wine’ concerning meaning) – as a relatively recent discovery and trade matter, metals had more chances to keep relatively homogenous even if I believe it’s not the case for every metal – BTW a society where horse is common tends naturally to have more than a term for gender, age, function and so on… for metals it’s not the same case ? 2- ‘horse’ : *marc is Celtic too (maybe more for stallions?) – the root *ekw- (old spelling) seems having been common from Ireland to Indo-Iranic – kobyla has the same root as capal/ceffyll/cabal (Gaël/Welsh/Lat) - ‘horse’ is from *hros- ← *kurs- ; 3- ‘wheel’ : I see only two roots : *roth-H2- (Sanskrit ràthah : ‘charriot’, Gaulish reda : -id-, Britt- r(h)od : ‘wheel’, Latin rota : -id-, Britt- red- : ‘race’, ‘to run’, maybe Scot.Gaël rathad : ‘road’) and something like *kʷékʷlo- / *kʷol-o- (semantically, there are bridges between ‘wheel’ and ‘cart’ and between ‘car(t)’ and ‘road’ or ‘car(t)’ and ‘race’, don’t wait too much strictness and stability concerning meanings) - If we search only strict meanings strictly linked to one form among modern langages we are sure to find a great heterogeneity – but if we search on a larger scale, we see the great malleability, and we can fill up the « holes » in the series of words : Breton jaw, surely a recent romance loanwords for every kind of mount, today for ‘horse’ ; marc’h rather for ‘stallion’ today ; ebeul (*ep-) for ‘foal’, ‘colt’ ; ‘mare’ is translated ‘kaseg’, so the root *kapal/kabal seems definetely lost but we have kefelleg/kevelleg : ‘woodcock’ (!) based upon *kefel – so we have to be cautious when we state « holes » in the PIE chains of words (same words are the same for a fish and a bird today!!!) ; that said even well spred words among the IE langages can be of not-PIE origin ; it needs very deep studies in ancient and modern langages AND small dialects too ! Genuine PIE words could have disappeared very soon in some langages...concerning localization of PIE I 'll post later, just to express my doubts rather than to affirm something
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my friend
wheel
except the strange word kuklos of Greek
there is also the Tocharian kukale.

chariot and horse
strange all the analysis ofrom ekwos to *hros
but what about Tocharian warkant.

there is a strange connection among what the as I call old languages (Greek Anatolian Armenian Aryan)
a strange connectivity, that has nothing to do with steppe

the other strange is celtic,which I accept the more possible Yamnaa origin due to Taranis=Thor
but what about the Nemeton // to Nemesis?

I do not think word kuklos is imported to Greek
cause then Helix and Kohlias has no meaning
as also the Tocharian Ko(ku)kale might be different

from all this I think we must reconsider the thesis that IE was a steppe origin language
and not tie our hands, with a sterile thesis,
yes steppe people spread IE to most of Europe's surface.
but I do not think IE was a steppe language
just search the word kumis,in IE languages, where?

it is a complicated puzzle,
Renfrew theory explain very well the agicultural part
but can not explain the metals etc etcthat is why is rejected,

steppe people and expand can explain well the metal expansion (except gold and silver)
but not the vocabulary of 'old' languages
besides the lack of gedrosian in some as the lack of Caucasus to other makes things much complicated.

PSIE
*roteh
Greek τροχος trohos wheel
τρεχω treho I run
 
Yetos, I think you should really look for the most usually proposed etymologies for the words you use as bases for your hypotheses and lines of reasoning. "Helix", for example, is usually regarded as coming from wel- (to turn, to rotate), what makes much a lot of sense in terms of semantics and also makes more sense than a previously unattested change from [kw] to [h] in just that Greek word. As for "kochlías", it makes as much or even more sense to derive it from a word that demonstrably would have a "ch" sound and is directly related to its meaning, which is the more usually given etymology related to a suffixation of the Ancient Greek "kónche", than to imagine that somehow the sound rules of Greek that worked for some words were just forgotten for this word.

Anyway, I am still trying to get what is exactly your proposal. I know your arguments, the examples you give for them, but I still am trying to get exactly what purpose they are serving. What do you want to say with all these (not so reliable in some cases) etymologies and supposed relations between different words or roots?
 
Yetos said:
strange all the analysis ofrom ekwos to *hros
but what about Tocharian warkant.
Click to expand...

There is no *ekwos to *hros. Proto-Germanic had *hrussã from an earlier root that in Pre-PGM must've been something like *krussom or even earlier, realistically, considering that Pre-PGM regularly put an epenthetic *u where PIE had a syllabic consonant (see *wlkwós > *wulfaz), something like *krsom. This has generally been regarded as much more clearly related to PIE *k'ers- (the same root for Latin "curro" and hence Spanish/Portuguese "correr"), "to run, to be swift". So this would be a newer root referring to the main quality (rapid mobility) of the animal. PIE *ek'wos, as I've said, is more realistically related to PGM *ehwaz, which still meant "horse" (maybe a different kind of horse, or possibly a more technical, neutral term whereas "horse" was more endearing) as we can still see attested in Gothic "aihus", in Old Norse "jór", in English "eoh" and in Old Saxon "ehus-kalk", 'horse rider' (thanks Wiktionary).
 
Yetos said:
from all this I think we must reconsider the thesis that IE was a steppe origin language
and not tie our hands, with a sterile thesis,
yes steppe people spread IE to most of Europe's surface.
but I do not think IE was a steppe language
just search the word kumis,in IE languages, where?
Click to expand...

I didn't understand this point. Should IE languages have preserved a word for "kumis" even if they don't use that any longer after milennia living outside the steppes and under different cultures and environments? It's not a basic and universal lexeme, but rather one very very very attached to one specific custom. Also, how sure are we that "kumis" even existed by the time of PIE? I made a short research on it and it seems the first proofs of the existence of kumis come only from the 5th century BC. Should it be really a common feature of PIE society?
 
Ygorcs said:
I didn't understand this point. Should IE languages have preserved a word for "kumis" even if they don't use that any longer after milennia living outside the steppes and under different cultures and environments? It's not a basic and universal lexeme, but rather one very very very attached to one specific custom. Also, how sure are we that "kumis" even existed by the time of PIE? I made a short research on it and it seems the first proofs of the existence of kumis come only from the 5th century BC. Should it be really a common feature of PIE society?
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yes
cause steppe kumis
is the horse milk yogurt.

and is considered a basic food of early steppe people who lived nearby with horses
 
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Ygorcs said:
There is no *ekwos to *hros. Proto-Germanic had *hrussã from an earlier root that in Pre-PGM must've been something like *krussom or even earlier, realistically, considering that Pre-PGM regularly put an epenthetic *u where PIE had a syllabic consonant (see *wlkwós > *wulfaz), something like *krsom. This has generally been regarded as much more clearly related to PIE *k'ers- (the same root for Latin "curro" and hence Spanish/Portuguese "correr"), "to run, to be swift". So this would be a newer root referring to the main quality (rapid mobility) of the animal. PIE *ek'wos, as I've said, is more realistically related to PGM *ehwaz, which still meant "horse" (maybe a different kind of horse, or possibly a more technical, neutral term whereas "horse" was more endearing) as we can still see attested in Gothic "aihus", in Old Norse "jór", in English "eoh" and in Old Saxon "ehus-kalk", 'horse rider' (thanks Wiktionary).
Click to expand...

in an anatolian language the chariot is yer-kwant
and in another war-kant
not the horse, but the chariot.
 
bicicleur said:
and is kumis an IE word or Turkic ?
Click to expand...

AFAIK kumis is common only among Mongol and Turkic steppe peoples. It doesn't seem to be common anywhere else, even places that also have semi-arid steppes. I still have my doubts if kumis can be considered a typical ancient product of the IE steppe peoples. Its earliest attestation is quite late (5th century BC) and it's now only associated with Turko-Mongol cultures. Not very reliable as a necessary marker of PIE culture.
 
Again about Yamnaya as source of IE languages and it's two most common "admixtures"

According to Jones et al. (2015) and Haak et al. (2015), autosomic tests indicate that the Yamnaya-people were the result of admixture between two different hunter-gatherer populations: distinctive "Eastern European hunter-gatherers" with high affinity to the Mal'ta-Buret' culture or other, closely related people from Siberia and a population of "Caucasus hunter-gatherers" who probably arrived from somewhere in the Near East, probably the Caucasus.

Lazaridis et al. (2016) proposes a different people, likely from Iran, as the source for the Middle Eastern ancestry of the Yamna people, finding that "a population related to the people of the Iran Chalcolithic contributed ~43% of the ancestry of early Bronze Age populations of the steppe."That study asserts that these Iranian Chalcolithic people were a mixture of "the Neolithic people of western Iran, the Levant, and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.
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I doubt that this "other" EHG component of Yamnaya population is source of IE languages

According to Haak et al. (2015), "Eastern European hunter-gatherers" who inhabited today's Russia were a distinctive population of hunter-gatherers with high affinity to a ~24,000-year-old Siberian from Mal'ta-Buret' culture, or other, closely related people from Siberia.[3][web 1] Remains of the "Eastern European hunter-gatherers" have been found in Mesolithic or early Neolithic sites in Karelia and Samara Oblast, Russia, and put under analysis.
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This is how the intrusion was going

A7000-BC-gene-map-s.gif



Iran/EHG hybrid will later become the Yamnaya IE speaking


4000-BC-gene-map.gif


In my amateur opinion for now i think that the intrusion people might be or maybe not be related to the people that formed the Maykop culture and came probably from Western Iran,Armenia,Kurdistan (that area) this is where the CHG admixture appeared in Yamna likely from this area,and this population was source of IE languages.
The Greek and Armenian language and perhaps the Anatolian languages never went north of the Caucasus.

It was the most advanced culture in the region with first wheel there,first bronze and perhaps the kurgan burials.

I am not saying that R1a and R1b won't appear there but i guess the "original" IE clades will.

I think that the ultimate IE homeland is Armenia,Western Iran,parts of Kurdistan.
Making Armenian hypothesis most likely.
 
A7000-BC-gene-map-s.gif


I don't understand why Anatolia and the Levant have the same colour.
When the Lazaridis paper was discussed here on Eupedia, I allready told that apart from Levant and Iran neolithic there should be another G2a2 based neolithic, who were ancestral to EEF.
Soon after the paper with Boncüklü and Tepecik-Ciftlik DNA was released with the population I had predicted.
That this population was not included is a major flaw in the Lazaridis paper and admixture diagram with only 4 corners.
The map above suggests that Levantine neolithic and EEF are the same. It is not.
 
Milan.M said:
4000-BC-gene-map.gif


In my amateur opinion for now i think that the intrusion people might be or maybe not be related to the people that formed the Maykop culture and came probably from Western Iran,Armenia,Kurdistan (that area) this is where the CHG admixture appeared in Yamna likely from this area,and this population was source of IE languages.
The Greek and Armenian language and perhaps the Anatolian languages never went north of the Caucasus.

It was the most advanced culture in the region with first wheel there,first bronze and perhaps the kurgan burials.

I am not saying that R1a and R1b won't appear there but i guess the "original" IE clades will.

I think that the ultimate IE homeland is Armenia,Western Iran,parts of Kurdistan.
Making Armenian hypothesis most likely.
Click to expand...

that could be the case for the Anatolian branch, which may have seperated from proto-IE before the formation of the EHG/Iran hybrid in Khvalynsk culture
for Greek/Armenian who seperated later and have common vocabulary for the wheel with other IE languages, seperation prior to the formation of the EHG/Iran hybrid north of the Caucasus is not possible
 
bicicleur said:
A7000-BC-gene-map-s.gif


I don't understand why Anatolia and the Levant have the same colour.
When the Lazaridis paper was discussed here on Eupedia, I allready told that apart from Levant and Iran neolithic there should be another G2a2 based neolithic, who were ancestral to EEF.
Soon after the paper with Boncüklü and Tepecik-Ciftlik DNA was released with the population I had predicted.
That this population was not included is a major flaw in the Lazaridis paper and admixture diagram with only 4 corners.
The map above suggests that Levantine neolithic and EEF are the same. It is not.
Click to expand...
I posted this mostly for the CHG and EHG ancestry in Yamnaya,somehow they were illustrated good in this maps.
 
bicicleur said:
that could be the case for the Anatolian branch, which may have seperated from proto-IE before the formation of the EHG/Iran hybrid in Khvalynsk culture
for Greek/Armenian who seperated later and have common vocabulary for the wheel with other IE languages, seperation prior to the formation of the EHG/Iran hybrid north of the Caucasus is not possible
Click to expand...
The vocabulary for wheel could have been carried very well from the south to north Caucasus "Maykop" anyway the wheel probably developed in the Near east,so even after the separation the reconstructed word for wheel remained the same.

Precursors of wheels, known as "tournettes" or "slow wheels", were known in the Middle East by the 5th millennium BCE (one of the earliest examples was discovered at Tepe Pardis, Iran, and dated to 5200–4700 BCE). These were made of stone or clay and secured to the ground with a peg in the center, but required significant effort to turn. True (freely-spinning) potter's wheels were apparently in use in Mesopotamia by 3500 BCE and possibly as early as 4000 BCE,[4] and the oldest surviving example, which was found in Ur (modern day Iraq), dates to approximately 3100 BCE
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The first evidence of wheeled vehicles appears in the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, near-simultaneously in Mesopotamia (Sumerian civilization), the Northern Caucasus (Maykop culture) and Eastern Europe (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture), so the question of which culture originally invented the wheeled vehicle is still unsolved.
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So the word for wheel was alive even before "vehicles" appear,not matter where.
 
@Milan.M,
The problem is that the "Hybrids" in the Maps should be very ubiquitous in your comments.
At Best, this could be a Maps for, say, 9000BC, while talking about events 4000-2000bc?!?! Makes no sense. By those dates, for instance I believe there would be all sorts of Hybrids, specially some nobody talks about, like a Hybrid of WHG/CHG/EEF in the south and west shores of Black sea. I would even had a bit of EHG (from Balkans) to the mix.

Anyways, the guys you talk about “ultimate IE homeland is Armenia,Western Iran,parts of Kurdistan” have a name! – Shulaveri-Shomu. And I demand they be respected! (Kidding 😊 )
 
Milan.M
Man where did you take this Tournettes or Slow wheels stuff from?
Not really something you see mentioned in many places! not really in this sort of forums, where mostly there are a ton of guys saying Steppe, IE, Wheel, Steppe, IE, Wheel,Steppe, IE, Wheel...

For a guy who thinks the Shulaveri were "it", having those things in/near their territory makes all the difference. - And the other guy (sorry dont remember is name) was right, about the word wheel and Snail being connected, right?!
 
Milan.M said:
The vocabulary for wheel could have been carried very well from the south to north Caucasus "Maykop" anyway the wheel probably developed in the Near east,so even after the separation the reconstructed word for wheel remained the same.






So the word for wheel was alive even before "vehicles" appear,not matter where.
Click to expand...

so you think Armenian/Greek could have seperated from proto-IE prior to the Khvalynsk culture?

the wheel spread very fast indeed, and it's origin is unknown
if I recall well also in TRB culture there is very early evidence
absolutely impossible to tell wether it travelled from south to north Caucasus or vice versa
 
Olympus Mons said:
Milan.M
Man where did you take this Tournettes or Slow wheels stuff from?
Not really something you see mentioned in many places! not really in this sort of forums, where mostly there are a ton of guys saying Steppe, IE, Wheel, Steppe, IE, Wheel,Steppe, IE, Wheel...

For a guy who thinks the Shulaveri were "it", having those things in/near their territory makes all the difference. - And the other guy (sorry dont remember is name) was right, about the word wheel and Snail being connected, right?!
Click to expand...

the other guy is me

and I suggest notice who the steppe model 'wheel' will enter Greek
how it is.
and very strange !!!! at all,
the snail in South Slavic shows the aspiration that should have in Greek
but does not !!!!!!!

if you understand the above,
It is obvious that there is something hidden
that we did not see yet,

besides Leyla teppe is a perfect place for IE speakers homeland,
remember that IE and Turkish show strange Summerian vocabulary, even in far North,
which surely may not be from steppe but from the Tocharians devastation

on the other hand you can tell me about the Finnokarelian vocabulary in IE
but hoe deep it is.

if IE was a steppe language,
then trees and animals that do not exist at steppe would not had IE simmilar names.

understanding that is a good start to understand the culture movement
and genneticks do not exclude a non steppe IE language
as some wanted.

in the conguest of N America
the pionners were Spanish Francais Dutch British even Swedish etc etc even Russians to Alaska,
but except 2-3 territories were Francais or Spanish or Russian still are spoken
all the land speaks English (USA dialects)

in the conguest of Europe and India is the oposite
there should be 1 pionner
 
I would just point that unfortunetaly, one of the main region in the Pontic Steppe that could be the mix of EEF/EHG/CHG is by now flooded, if you look at a Blac Sea map, Azov Sea and West of Crimea would have be before 3000BC a continuation of the Pontic Steppe and certainly one of the hotspot for Balkans and Caucasus people to meet, at the shore of the sea or lake.
 
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