• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

What's the misrepresentation? You claimed that the Triballi are mentioned by plenty of authors and I showed that during the era of Appian, they truly did vanish as Appian recorded it.
The map which I posted comes from Fingerprinting the Iron Age: Approaches to identity in the European Iron Age: Integrating South-Eastern Europe into the debate
Cătălin Nicolae Popa (Editor); Simon Stoddart (Editor), Oxbow Books, 2014.
triballi.png

It is the most recent critical examination of Papazoglu based on her full work, so yes, the map which I posted is reliable and what you posted only differs in expanding the Triballi towards Macedonia, something which archaeologists today reject. If you don't like it, that's your problem but it's dishonest to pretend that archaeology today supports something which it doesn't just because you want it to be true.
Even the map you posted still doesn't show the Triballi as being any major group in eastern Serbia and they didn't even exist past early Roman times.
The conclusion is that the Triballi had their base in northwestern Bulgaria and they were annihilated by the Roman era. The Triballi must have had considerable Celtic admixture from the Scordisci as seen in the overlapping with Celts during their incursion in eastern Serbia. Nothing in the history and the extinction of the Triballi connects them to Albanians.
You are wrong about Eastern Serbia, because there are new excavations which prove the presence of the Ferigile culture which being commonly associated with the Triballi.

In more recent times the elements o Ferigile culture thatare confirmed with certainty in the Serbian Danube valley and eastern parts o the central Balkans areadded to the rather broad area o distribution o Basarabi culture elements westward o Oltenia andRomanian Banat.

https://www.academia.edu/30554381/B...Contribution_to_the_Early_Iron_Age_Chronology
 
I've seen other posts where he mocks Johane and the Bosnian how they got banned, even though they mainly collided with Brumi, through his asiatic spirit he reveals himself of who he is.
I don't know about JohaneDerite's and Bruzmi's quarrels as I have joined anthrofora in late 2021. But that Aspurg/OrokuSaki/Huban is a Serb and has posted lots of derogatory, chauvinist stuff against Albanians and Albanian victims of the 90s war on this forum and I can only imagine on the other forum as well. That led to him being rightfully banned here.

That weasel is a disgusting person. Reminds me of the video of some Slavic "men" living in so called "North Macedonia" chanting anti-Albanian slogans towards some Albanian girls when one Iliridas man comes with his motorcycle and they shush like little girls and literally flee away in fear :lol2:
 
I don't know about JohaneDerite's and Bruzmi's quarrels as I have joined anthrofora in late 2021. But that Aspurg/OrokuSaki/Huban is a Serb and has posted lots of derogatory, chauvinist stuff against Albanians and Albanian victims of the 90s war on this forum and I can only imagine on the other forum as well. That led to him being rightfully banned here.

That weasel is a disgusting person. Reminds me of the video of some Slavic "men" living in so called "North Macedonia" chanting anti-Albanian slogans towards some Albanian girls when one Iliridas man comes with his motorcycle and they shush like little girls and literally flee away in fear :lol2:

Mount he was harsh and cruel, but I am not going to say it was entirely undeserved, Brumi and his minions constantly provoked and never debated in good faith. I had to hold myself back with them, I don't see why someone who has nothing to do with us would not take the opportunity to trash them without mercy.
 
@PaleoRevenge

I cannot comment on that as I don't know what argument some users have had in the past hence my disclaimer in the beginning.

There definitely is no justification for that crackpot's behavior here.
 
Scholars like Schramm, Wilkes, Hauzinski, etc, point to this zone in central/north-Albania (from Shkumbin almost up to Lezha) that has place names ending in "-esh" (derived from Vulgar Latin. -esis) as being the original zone of settlement of the proto-Albanians in Albania.

This area coincides more or less with the ancient Arbanon region, and the expansion of proto-Albanians from this region would explain why this would become the ethnonym of both Tosks and Gegës later on.

Schramm argued that this distribution of toponyms terminating in -esh (Qyqesh, Gërdhesh, Zgërdhesh, Mollagjesh, etc) pointed to the area where Byzantium settled Bessi immigrants (proto-Albanians according to him).


He argued the settlement of Bessi immigrants in Arbanon explains why the Bulgarians were only able to open up access to the Adriatic south of Arbanon.

F01HPMSXoAQsrLN

v
F01a_PhXoAEL5H8
 
Scholars like Schramm, Wilkes, Hauzinski, etc, point to this zone in central/north-Albania (from Shkumbin almost up to Lezha) that has place names ending in "-esh" (derived from Vulgar Latin. -esis) as being the original zone of settlement of the proto-Albanians in Albania.
This area coincides more or less with the ancient Arbanon region, and the expansion of proto-Albanians from this region would explain why this would become the ethnonym of both Tosks and Gegës later on.
Schramm argued that this distribution of toponyms terminating in -esh (Qyqesh, Gërdhesh, Zgërdhesh, Mollagjesh, etc) pointed to the area where Byzantium settled Bessi immigrants (proto-Albanians according to him).
He argued the settlement of Bessi immigrants in Arbanon explains why the Bulgarians were only able to open up access to the Adriatic south of Arbanon.
F01HPMSXoAQsrLN

v
F01a_PhXoAEL5H8
R1b-Z2705's most recent common ancestor was ~1450 years ago.
This means around ~573 AD.
Given that Z2705 is found in both Tosks & Gegës, this is likely to have been a dominant lineage in the Albanian ethnogenesis.
Did he live in that yellow zone?
http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/
Also, note a new R1b-Z2705* from Sofia, Bulgaria.
 
I don't know about JohaneDerite's and Bruzmi's quarrels as I have joined anthrofora in late 2021. But that Aspurg/OrokuSaki/Huban is a Serb and has posted lots of derogatory, chauvinist stuff against Albanians and Albanian victims of the 90s war on this forum and I can only imagine on the other forum as well. That led to him being rightfully banned here.

Just to set a record straight mr. lier.

I am not a Serb, and I do not nor I have identified with the Serb ethnicity. Understandable. My father is of Montenegrin extraction, my mother Bosniak. But my father was a member of Bosnian muslim military, while my closest relatives were murdered by Serbs. At poreklo some call me "anti-Serb".

I made no derogatory statement on Albanian war victims. I made "derogatory statement" on Albanian origins, saying Albanians were "slaves of Illyrians" which is actually the truth, though unpolitely spoken. If Albanians do not descend of Illyrians proper, or the Thracians, and that is the case, then they were under political dominance of Illyrians/Thracians, especially Illyrians.

You and other Albanians thought I was a Serb, so just like you try with other Serbs of "non-Slavic" origin to troll them and make them feel bad by invoking Albanian and other origins. In my case, Albanian origin is not bad origin as my family had some Kuci tradition which seemed dubious even before the DNA, I started learning Albanian 7 years ago, just in case I was actually Kuci and was even willing to make it part of my heritage. But my line is not Albanian.
It appears quite clearly Bulgarian, and of Cuman or the like Bulgarian extraction. Also found in families in a village founded by the Pechenegs, but with Serbs it is almost impossible to cooperate on researching origin other than Slavic. Cuman because in oldest strata of names Cuman are as common as Bulgarian. Such as Huban and now more recently evidence suggests my own village was settled by the descendants of certain Shishman.

I have some "extremists Bosniak" background which says Turks are best, the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans is the best thing that has ever happened. So the best origin is Turkish or related, that's one part of pursuing Cumans/Pechenegs.

The other part is that I am not a whiner like you, most Serbs, most Albanians, and most ethnicities are. I like players and Cumans were the players. I am not fond on identities built by Abrahamic religions, whose exposure, deconstruction is my hobby, so having ties with peoples who had no such (only lip service at best) identification is great. Pechenegs, Cumans behaved opposite to religious morality, some would say like modern extreme Western liberals.

When you go 800 years back, most peoples were just a bunch of sedentary "losers" trying to survive and following these laws of morality, they would fit as modern day religious Conservatives.

The main reason for trouble is you saying I'm not connected to Cumans and the like. That's very unlikely. The worst-case scenario is that I am some proto-Vlach assimilated into nomads, no village of my genetic cluster has relation with the Vlachs. The best case, I have no relation to Vlachs.. Actually most of Vlach pale-Balkan clades, including the V13 have genetic relatives in Albanians with TMRCA of 800, 1000, 1500 years. I don't.. So I am either from Dacian territory or from the Mysian territory, as so far (thousands of tested) no members of my cluster ended up in proto-Albanians.

Btw I don't care being banned from a forum nobody frequents (like this one). Btw if I wanted, I could come back at anthrogenica.. There were sock puppet Albanians there.

That weasel is a disgusting person. Reminds me of the video of some Slavic "men" living in so called "North Macedonia" chanting anti-Albanian slogans towards some Albanian girls when one Iliridas man comes with his motorcycle and they shush like little girls and literally flee away in fear :lol2:

Cuman hunters don't mind the prey calling them names.:bigsmile: After all they were the rulers of those Bulgarian lands..
 
Last edited:
Reason for deletion: responding to banned user @Aspurg, now under the sock puppet account @Oroku Saki
 
Last edited:
I made no derogatory statement on Albanian war victims. I made "derogatory statement" on Albanian origins, saying Albanians were "slaves of Illyrians" which is actually the truth, though unpolitely spoken. If Albanians do not descend of Illyrians proper, or the Thracians, and that is the case, then they were under political dominance of Illyrians/Thracians, especially Illyrians.

That would be the case if Albanians are from a Dardani substratum, but I am of the opinion R-Y10789 is eastern Paeonian, later it merged with Bessi, this is outside Illyrian sphere.

The relationship with Illyrian goes far back when R-Z2103 and J2b-L283 were still Yamnaya in the Hungarian plain, J2b split/broke off around 2,300 BC and diverged from that point on, this was greatly accelerated from the beginning when J2b-L283 encountered Beaker colonies in the Adriatic coast which they overcame and took their females. The early J2bs clearly show the man being different from the women in PCA graph.
 
That would be the case if Albanians are from a Dardani substratum, but I am of the opinion R-Y10789 is eastern Paeonian, later it merged with Bessi, this is outside Illyrian sphere.

The relationship with Illyrian goes far back when R-Z2103 and J2b-L283 were still Yamnaya in the Hungarian plain, J2b split/broke off around 2,300 BC and diverged from that point on, this was greatly accelerated from the beginning when J2b-L283 encountered Beaker colonies in the Adriatic coast which they overcame and took their females. The early J2bs clearly show the man being different from the women in PCA graph.

That's, at least as a rough sketch, a plausible pathway imho. The admixure with other people, especially Daco-Thracians (Triballi, Bessi, resettled Dacians etc.) and Paeonians is highly likely and important ingredient, because taken together they make up the majority vs. the original Illyrians. My bet is with the Dardanians, because that would allow multiple admixture events with E-V13 rich Daco-Thracians:
- local Daco-Thracians as they were assimilated in their Eastern territories
- long lasting contacts with the Triballi and Bessi
- resettled Dacians at the end of Antiquity.
 
That's, at least as a rough sketch, a plausible pathway imho. The admixure with other people, especially Daco-Thracians (Triballi, Bessi, resettled Dacians etc.) and Paeonians is highly likely and important ingredient, because taken together they make up the majority vs. the original Illyrians. My bet is with the Dardanians, because that would allow multiple admixture events with E-V13 rich Daco-Thracians:
- local Daco-Thracians as they were assimilated in their Eastern territories
- long lasting contacts with the Triballi and Bessi
- resettled Dacians at the end of Antiquity.

People are assuming the Bessi were south Thracian in profile, but more than likely, they were Daco-Mysian like, as their toponym show ending in Dama not para which is closer to the Daco-Mysian. They are in a way south Thracian that restrained themselves from mixing with Aegean profiles. That's my interpretation until proven otherwise.

The Bessi would plot closer to MKD Skpoje I10179 with some south Thracian pull, while the Paeonians should be similar to MKD BA sample. These two profiles merged in Roman period creating the Bessi culture horizon and are the only viable early-Albanian candidate so far.
 
People are assuming the Bessi were south Thracian in profile, but more than likely, they were Daco-Mysian like, as their toponym show ending in Dama not para which is closer to the Daco-Mysian. They are in a way south Thracian that restrained themselves from mixing with Aegean profiles. That's my interpretation until proven otherwise.

The Bessi would plot closer to MKD Skpoje I10179 with some south Thracian pull, while the Paeonians should be similar to MKD BA sample. These two profiles merged in Roman period creating the Bessi culture horizon and are the only viable early-Albanian candidate so far.


bessi tribe belonged to the Odrysian thracian group ( the purest thracians ).........they lived in modern eastern Bulgaria...............their eastern neighbours where the maedi tribe then the paeonians
 
That's, at least as a rough sketch, a plausible pathway imho. The admixure with other people, especially Daco-Thracians (Triballi, Bessi, resettled Dacians etc.) and Paeonians is highly likely and important ingredient, because taken together they make up the majority vs. the original Illyrians. My bet is with the Dardanians, because that would allow multiple admixture events with E-V13 rich Daco-Thracians:
- local Daco-Thracians as they were assimilated in their Eastern territories
- long lasting contacts with the Triballi and Bessi
- resettled Dacians at the end of Antiquity.


I see zero Triballi - Bessi link ...............Bessi have no Dacian link like the Triballi have
 
I see zero Triballi - Bessi link ...............Bessi have no Dacian link like the Triballi have

That's why I wrote about Daco-Thracian, I don't even start trying to differentiate between these two South of the Danube, unless I'm writing about the resettled Dacians, especially Carpi people. Triballi and Bessi were simply historically known Daco-Thracian people close enough to have intermixed with Dardanians, coming down to Southern Serbia-Kosovo.
 
I am pretty sure I did not ask about your personal biography @Aspurg(istan) that is trying to evade his ban.

stan is suitable too, as ofc do you know the etymology of "Aspurg"? It's an Iranian Sarmatian name attested in Tanais and elsewhere.

Btw I said nothing out of ordinary on anthrogenica, first ban was me telling Bruzmi that he will not "inferiorise" V13 with his "V13 was in Balkans forever just standing in one place and being assimilated by the others". And the second was after I posted a link to Cognitive Dissonance article in my post as he was still mentioning Western Balkans just after Southern Arch paper was published.

Excine decided to make personal attacks against me based on false notions about me, making assumptions, as he couldn't debate me. I don't get "hurt" by implying Albanian connection as I'm no self-identifying Serb. I do get irritated about implying I have no Nomad-Bulgarian connection as I invested considerable time successfully proving from the DNA and the historical sources POV that I do. Originally that is how I came to anthrogenica.



Interesting, I just looked up what this poreklo thing is that you are a member of. You as a Serb from Bjelo qkula and as far as I can tell it is a Serbian DNA project and also as usual a bunch of pseudoscientific fantastical Slavic autochthonist theories.

Yes I am from Bijelo Polje, maybe the oldest attested family from that area.

As far as I know, on poreklo there are almost no Slavic autochthonist people, almost all claim that I2a is Slavic in origin. I am poreklo forum member but I am not poreklo society member. Poreklo forum members are various, atm member is also user KučPalabardi, who is I think a Rrenjet administrator. Also Rugovac, who was supposedly Albanian, though some disputed this.

You're a Slav, what the hell is a father of Montenegrin extraction? A Montenegrin Serb father and a Bosniak mother lol Serbs are a Slavic people hence you cannot claim to be of Non-Slavic origin as a Slav.

You are Albanian, and some Albanians such as that "Rugovac" claimed along the lines that maternal uncle is not related to you, and that member of the same tribe, same paternal ancestor from 300 years back is closer than any maternal side relative.

So from that perspective, one can claim to be anything his father was, his grandfather, his fathers fathers father, his greatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgreatgrandfather etc..

So I can be whatever was my paternal ancestor at a given time in all of history.

I have total right to call myself Bulgarian, as in 14th century my ancestors were Bulgarian, and they did not fully assimilate into the locals until the 16th century.
Also as Cuman names seem stronger than it should be for Slavic Bulgarians, such connection looks obvious (might mention Pecheneg connection in C.Balkans).

Btw. I talked about this to Bulgarian dignitaries. I always mean business. I know more ambassadors and diplomats than there are people posting here daily, so why should I care about some insignificant internet space owners and who they ban or not. Anthrogenica as the most active DNA site is still a micro site.

Where do you plot on a PCA?:lol2::lol2:

I recall being closer to Bosniaks or Croats than to Serbs, clustering only with NE Serbs. My Bosniak side is mostly Central Bosnia and these are known to have more Slavic ancestry than maybe even all of Croats (as these have some Western-German input).

This is because Bosniaks from Central Bosnia descend of islamized locals who did not mix with the Vlachs much (maybe some older Roman elements), whereas Bosniaks from Northern Bosnia and Herzegovina are basically loaded with Islamized Serbo-Vlach element.

Some Balkan lower than avg. , some Anatolia, that was on FTDNA, but I need to do a better auDNA test tbh.


Sure sure Paeonia that has yielded from North to South R1b-Z2103>CTS1450 lineages which Albanians in "NMCD" have lots of and the Slavs 0% of.

Typical Slavic autochonist. Neither Dardania nor Paeonia nor any Balkan region is a Urheimat for Slavs you crackpot. Neither your beloved "Montenegro" aka Illyrian Glasinac J2b-L283>Z1297+ territory.

I think N.Macedonians do have CTS1450, both Albanian and other lineages.

Never been autochtonist. That's a point of view and time. Are Kosovo Albanians native to Kosovo past the 400 year mark, vast majority are not, maybe they were 1500 years ago. Are Croatian and Bosnian Serbs native to the region? Only to Eastern Herzegovina past the 500 year mark.
Are the Bosniaks from the NW and NE Bosnia native to that area past the 500 year period. No, they for the most part descend of Serbo-Vlachs who got Islamized in 6th century, and actually the home of modern NE Bosniaks is Western Serbia, for some even Sandzak etc.

Also obviously Illyrians got displaced and killed by the Romans, and by the time of Slavic invasion in the Western Balkans Justinian plague reduced the long-ago admixed and romanised Illyrian elements to a minimum.

Regarding the Montenegrins, they seem to have a different base to that of Serbs, and Porphyrogenites does not say that Diocleans were of Serbian origin. Their Serbian connection comes later. On the other hand even the most Bosnian of all Medieval Bosnians descend from original Bosnia from Sarajevo to Zenica, have plenty of PH908, and in 10th century that small Bosnia was part of Serbia, so likely some PH908 Serboids settled around Bathinus river and started calling themselves Bosnians, in the same fashion Slavs around Neretva river were Narentians.

Southern Croats same. All of these are basically very similar, and they are totally shaped by religion. If a Serb becomes Catholic he becomes a "Croat", if he becomes a Muslim he becomes a "Bosniak" etc. Personal name is the most important element of their ethnicity.

Who cares about modern day ethnicities anyway. :laughing:
 
That would be the case if Albanians are from a Dardani substratum, but I am of the opinion R-Y10789 is eastern Paeonian, later it merged with Bessi, this is outside Illyrian sphere.

The relationship with Illyrian goes far back when R-Z2103 and J2b-L283 were still Yamnaya in the Hungarian plain, J2b split/broke off around 2,300 BC and diverged from that point on, this was greatly accelerated from the beginning when J2b-L283 encountered Beaker colonies in the Adriatic coast which they overcame and took their females. The early J2bs clearly show the man being different from the women in PCA graph.

There are papers about Late Antiquity Bessi but I wasn't satisfied with the authors generic Thracian label regarding their pottery, there must be some more specific links. But that requires comparing them to all archeological cultures immediately prior to Roman arrival.

Archeologist from poreklo was suggesting maybe a direct link of Albanians with the Triballi, with Triballi not being Thracian. Triballi ruler Hales has a name which might fit into Albanian. In 14th century some Vlach groups on Kosovo had name such as Halda, Halapa. There is controversy on this Triballian name, but apparently closest analogies are Egyptian which led Papazoglu even doubting its authenticity, but old pre-proto Albanian shift of sk>h might be the indication.
 
Back
Top