Religion why are not u a muslim?

[Miss_apollo7]

I thought this thread had died but was surprised to see that it was kept alive still without moslema?...and even more surprised to read about a discussion on Christianity and Hitler here?very interesting and surprising!

Well, I thought I might contribute to this interesting discussion, as I think both sides are right regarding Hitler abusing Christianity or Hitler not using/exploiting Christianity. Depends on the sources really.

Hitler was not a typical Christian of course (everyone knows that!), and the theory going on here saying that he might have abused Christianity to begin the Holocaust can be interpreted in different ways.

Hitler did have a very dubious relationship to Christianity, which is conveyed through much evidence and books.
One of them being the book by Dietrich Eckart, Bolshevism from
Moses to Lenin - Conversation with Adolf Hitler and Me (1924).
Eckhart had a strong influence on Hitler from 1918, and was an inspiration for Hitler?s anti-Semitic notions and hate of religion.
Eckhart was also the boss of Alfred Rosenberg (who later became chief ideologist for the Third Reich and was one of the great architects of the ideological struggle against ?the threat from the east and the Jews?).
Eckhart died in 1923, therefore, he is not as famous as Rosenberg.

Eckhart?s book was published after his death in 1924 and it is about a conversation between him and Hitler. Most experts agree that the opinion of Hitler are authentic.
The style is more vivid and deep than in Mein Kampf, and the book by Eckhart gives a more thorough picture of the young Hitler?s ideas about Jews and....Christianity.

Furthermore, Hitler gives his reasons for his anti-Semitic and anti-Christian world view and his interpretation of historical events.
The book is very personal, and a very important historical source for historians, which contains extreme utterances of Hitler. Therefore, the book was banned by Hitler himself after his regime began.

The extreme hate towards Jews and Bolshevism is the biggest theme in the conversations printed in the book.
Most importantly, Hitler was very anti-Christian, almost hostile towards Christianity throughout this source.

However, I agree that some rhetorics used by Hitler can be considered "christian" in a way that he abuses Christian values..he was a "godsend" etc.. Especially also with the Fuhrer-personality.

Well, this was what I had to say ? for now.
So, that leaves me in the compromising camp...

 

[Satori]

Furthermore, Hitler gives his reasons for his anti-Semitic and anti-Christian world view and his interpretation of historical events.

I had heard before that Hitler was anti-Christian, and then also noticed that he used the words "the Creator," etc. Just what were his religious beliefs? Could you please elaborate more on the philosophies of Eckhart that Hitler followed? What was the source of their hatred for both Jews and Christians? Thanks.

 

[Mike in Japan]

I don't think that there are all too many Muslim teachers who encourage people to do so. One would be already too many, though.

Thanks for the "ignorant" insult Bussel. It was a truly ignorant insult.
If you carefully read what you wrote, you MAY (?) see the reason for my laughter.

You said "I don't think there are all too many", but in your next sentence you said that "one would be already too many".
Well how many is it to be then? None, one or two, a few of these murderous cretins perhaps?

I would laugh some more if I didn't feel so sad about all the lives recently taken by the hands of these evil idiots.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

I had heard before that Hitler was anti-Christian, and then also noticed that he used the words "the Creator," etc. Just what were his religious beliefs? Could you please elaborate more on the philosophies of Eckhart that Hitler followed? What was the source of their hatred for both Jews and Christians? Thanks.

I could not possibly give a long summary of the book due to many reasons, one of them being that the post would be too long.
Moreover, I would begin to babble on and on and on?..(which I am very good at).

However, I can try and answer the questions very briefly, but I would recommend you to read the book anyway in order to learn about Hitler?s ?reasonings? about Christianity.

Hitler?s beliefs concerning Christianity were very dubious, however, I strongly believe that he was anti-Christian.
There are many interesting discussions going on, but evidence suggest that he was anti-Christian when referring to his ?reasonings? regarding anti-semitism, and his view of historical events, however, when he came to power, his regime propagandised itself as mirroring (German) Christian values. (so, the regime abused religion for propanganda purposes).

Click here for ideology of Eckhart (and most Rosenberg), which became the ideology of the Nazi Party:Ideology of Nazism

About the source of Hitler?s hatred toward Jews and Christianity:
The hatred towards Jews has been studied by many historians.
However, in context to Eckhart's book, Hitler reasoned or ?justified? his hatred towards Jews and Christianity based on (his idea of) historical events, and scapegoating etc?
Hitler attacks Judaism and Christianity in Eckhart?s book, and his arguments seems irrational and he tries to ?justify? anti-semitism, which became normality in Germany in the 1920s. He seems very paranoid and stubborn.

The book starts out with arguing that from the biblical period up to Germany in the 1920s, one long struggle between the ?good? and the ?evil? was the main event.
From the times of Moses the Jews were the ?evil?, and most destructive in human history etc.. They also discuss that the Jews had destroyed the Roman Empire, and refer to the Bible as ?satan?s book,? and mention the ?Jewish Plague? etc..
Hitler (and Eckhart?s) theory was also that Jews were working on bringing down German civilisation.
The language is in the book is harsh..

Eckhart ?supports? his arguments with ?authentic? quotes about anti-semitism from Thomas Aquinas, Augustin, Luther, Kant, Schopenhauer, Dostovjevskij etc..
Propaganda at his best, which is scary..

Most importantly, the book has many direct and indirect attacks on the Bible and Christianity, which support the theory that Hitler in the long run had planned to settle accounts with the Church and Christianity in Germany (and Europe) to try to replace it with ?Arian teaching.?


Eckhart?s book being very anti-Christian was of course banned when Hitler came to power, as the anti-Christian beliefs connected to Hitler was not ?proper? in 1930s Germany, as the regime presented itself as so-called (German) Christian for propaganda purposes.

I really recommend the book (if you can get hold of it, as it is more vivid than Mein Kampf, however, these two books are blacklisted in many countries and not easy to get hold of).

This was my brief answer.... Hope it helped a bit..

 

[bossel]

You said "I don't think there are all too many", but in your next sentence you said that "one would be already too many".
Well how many is it to be then? None, one or two, a few of these murderous cretins perhaps?

Sorry, if I caused confusion. I saw this, but I thought it to be pretty clear, since I understand this "all too" as the translation of German "allzu" which means "overly" or "excessively". Hence the meaning should have been clear.
After I looked into some English dictionaries I'm not absolutely sure that this meaning is 100 % correct, but it seems close enough to understand what I said.


BTW, if you are really an English teacher, I'm happy not to be one of your pupils. Don't like teachers who laugh at mistakes!

 

[Mike in Japan]

Dear Bossel,


I'm still a little confused as to your position. Is ANY amount of terrorism or hatefull indoctrination by so called Moslem teachers tolerable in your opinion? Perhaps you can clarify.

I wasn't laughing at your mistake, I was laughing at what you said.
I credited you with the ability to know what you were writing since your command of English seems pretty good.
Obviously my mistake, and I'm sorry you took it so personally.
It would be easy for me to respond to your insult, but I doubt that would achieve anything. I prefer to "play the ball, not the man".

 

[bossel]

a book, actually written by Adolf Hitler called "Mien kamf"

I don't think, people would find the book, if they followed your spelling. The book's German title is "Mein Kampf", which equals "My Struggle". It's actually available online.

For what I know, the Nazis used pretty much everything to support their ideology, from evolution theory to Christianity. It all was a mixture of science, pseudo science, pseudo religion & religion, plus Germanic mysticism (if that's not included in religion).
There were even people who took National Socialism as a religion, praying to the "F?hrer" (Leader) for their daily bread.

Christianity prepared the ground for the nazis with its anti-Judaism. But the organized church in general was more an enemy of the state (IE the nazis) than anything else, with the exception of a few (eg the "German Christians" who wanted to prove that Jesus was Aryan).

I'm still a little confused as to your position. Is ANY amount of terrorism or hatefull indoctrination by so called Moslem teachers tolerable in your opinion? Perhaps you can clarify.

As I said, one Muslim cleric encouraging terrorism is already too many. But the vast majority of clerics doesn't support terrorism.

Since there is not much like an organized "church" in Islam, it's very probably impossible to root out radical clerics. Any "war on terror" is doomed to fail as long as the reasons for terrorism are not eliminated. Terrorists or radical clerics are just symptoms, not the disease.

 

[Anyuni_Nakashima]

I don't think, people would find the book, if they followed your spelling. The book's German title is "Mein Kampf", which equals "My Struggle". It's actually available online.

Oops...Thank you for correcting it for me!!!

I've been keeping up on this post and I must say, "Wow, I like what I've been reading." I guess it kinda was my fault for steering it in a different direction, but it turned out to be a good one. I'm also learning a few things i never knew...Great posts you guys!!!

All great posts...in no particular order

Satori
TwistedMac
Mike In Japan
Bossel
Duo
Cicatriz esp
Miss Appollo7

 

[Mike in Japan]

Any "war on terror" is doomed to fail as long as the reasons for terrorism are not eliminated. Terrorists or radical clerics are just symptoms, not the disease.

This may be true but I don't know that it is possible to find any reason, for it could be argued that terrorism itself is irrational and unreasonable. I'm also more than a little worried that trying to root out the cause (if that is possible) could preclude efforts to clean up the symptoms. That is to say that while we are looking for the reason, we may be swamped with the symptoms - mass murder that is.

Christianity prepared the ground for the nazis with its anti-Judaism.

Really? Christians are to blame for the Nazis?

 

[TwistedMac]

All great posts...in no particular order

Satori
TwistedMac
Mike In Japan
Bossel
Duo
Cicatriz esp
Miss Appollo7

how the h**l did i end up on this list??

*goes back to look what i said*
well.. i guess it wasn't as ignorant as my posts usually are...

 

[Anyuni_Nakashima]

Really? Christians are to blame for the Nazis?

That's not what Bossel meant...C'mon now, you knew what he really meant!!!

Off the Record!!! Through history a lot of catholics blamed the jew's for the death of Jesus. Which, was sort of an excuse for anti-semitism. I know there is a lot more to it, but i didn't feel like writing a paragraph or a page.

I could be wrong...

 

[bossel]

Really? Christians are to blame for the Nazis?

Did I say so? Is it so unclear?
Christian anti-Judaism prepared the ground insofar as to make people susceptible to nazi propaganda (esp. that Jews are at the root of all evil [edit: that is part of nazi propaganda, just so that it is clear to Mike]).

BTW, thanks Anyuni!

 

[Mike in Japan]

Thanks for clarifying your statement.
It is so easy for people to draw incorrect conclusions or interpretations and accept them as being fact.
Actually the Nazi propaganda was borrowed from Russian propaganda produced by the 'Okhranka' secret police. Around the turn of last century they published a book 'The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion' which was later overwhelmingly proven to have been fraudulent, but which neverthess set Europe ablaze with anti-semitic feeling. Of course it was also used by Adolph Hitler and his henchmen to justify their actions.
Despite having been completely and utterly discredited, the 'Protocols' still crop up on numerous websites, where they are claimed to be fact. Amazingly they are still considered fact by many Japanese - and they are apparently taught in many Arab schools.
Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion Many will find this link fascinating, if not astonishing.
So the lies are perpetuated.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion Many will find this link fascinating, if not astonishing.
So the lies are perpetuated.

Thanks for link!
It was an interesting read!
It just clarifies that propaganda is scary when historical "facts" and "borrowing" of other people's stories and quotations are manipulated with to base one's "arguments" - which was e.g. done by the Nazi regime.

This is very much like the book by Dietrich Eckhart, which I wrote about in a previous post. [In their conversations, historical "facts" are used as evidence of their theory on Jews taking over etc..and also in general their anti-semitic and anti-Christian notions].

So, Christianity was abused by the Nazi regime for propaganda, and they created a kind of "their own" version of (German) Christianity with the theory on Aryan Race as superior etc...
However, the Eckhart book is an example of evidence which suggests that Hitler was not Christian at all, being very anti-Christian (in the way Christianity was without the (German) Nazi doctrine...
Hence, Hitler was anti-Christian but the regime made "its own" religion with their Nazi doctrine on e.g. Aryan race, giving the impression that it was "(German) Christian" for propaganda...

I hope it makes sense of what I have written.... :relief:

 

[Mike in Japan]

Perfect sense. I clearly understand. Thanks for writing.

I'm glad you took the time to read the link and that you found it interesting.

I'm sorry to have to admit that I have not thoroughly read every post in this thread, but I will definitely go back and read the post to which you refer.

Cheers,
Mike

Mata Ne

 

[Duo]

Last year I took European History, and I happend to read a little exerpt from one of Hitler's work, where among other things, he disscused the jews. From what I gathered, he had a negative view on them because, firstly to him they seemed dirty and unclean.
Secondly, he thought that they were most of them left wing and bringing down the german people and nation as a whole. Thirdly, he said that even though he disproved their leftist ideas wrong in arguments, they would still not accept that he was right. And another reason was that he despised how they fought amongst each other on the question of Zionism. The most compelling reason, as I understood it to be, was that the jews were infiltrating german society, and the german nationhood, and were bringing it down with their leftist propaganda and newspapers.

 

[cicatriz esp]

Mein Kampf is actually available for free online here:

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

if anyone is interested.

I read it, and i find that the author seems to jump to a lot of conclusions just because he wants them to be true. We all know that judaism is not a race, and this is a cornerstone of his argument.

 

[bossel]

Actually the Nazi propaganda was borrowed from Russian propaganda produced by the 'Okhranka' secret police. Around the turn of last century they published a book 'The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion' which was later overwhelmingly proven to have been fraudulent, but which neverthess set Europe ablaze with anti-semitic feeling. Of course it was also used by Adolph Hitler and his henchmen to justify their actions.

True, but I don't think you can say the Nazis borrowed their propaganda from Czarist Russia. There was long-running anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany (as can be seen by the fact that in 1882 the "First International Anti-Jewish Congress" took place at Dresden, not to mention Luther & others) , which lies at the basis of Nazi anti-Judaism. They made use of the "protocols" just like they made use of many other "documents".

Funny, though, that this conspiracy crap is still around with or without Jews. I've seen it esp. from some US right-wing nuts who claimed that freemasons (in these cases no Jews mentioned) are still trying to achieve some evil "new world order".

 

[Mike in Japan]

Has anyone seen the 'Masonic Handshake' sketch by Monte Python?

True, but I don't think you can say the Nazis borrowed their propaganda from Czarist Russia.

Certainly not all of it was from Russia, but a very significant portion was.

 

[Miss_apollo7]

(..) from some US right-wing nuts who claimed that freemasons (in these cases no Jews mentioned) are still trying to achieve some evil "new world order".

yeah, I have heard many weird rumours about the freemasons in a "secret society of evil doings etc..."

What do they exactly do today in modern times??? They were medieval monks before right? Can anyone enlighten me?