Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]

[Riverman]

Guess where J2b-L283 presence will be, exactly, the Western Steppe!

Also, knowingly from all of the many samples we have and are going to get, Proto-Illyrians were heavy J2b-L283. There is also no correlation between J2b-L283 and R-Z2103 whatsoever.

There might have been one in the beginning, like we find R-Z2103 beside J-L283 in Maros and we have R-Z2103 in the East Adriatic (Pre-/Cetina period). So its possible, I'm just saying possible, that there was an early connection - I wouldn't even exclude that for E-V13 too.
However, R-Z2103 is pretty old and diversified, we will find many dead end branches, while J-L283 and E-V13 experienced both unique founder effects from the EBA-MBA, which made them the top dogs in their respective sphere of influence.
Like R-Z2103 was present around Cotofeni, we know that the Cotofeni people, which were more local Carpathian, partially copied the Yamnaya kurgans, but gave them their own style and inventory so to say. But the two groups remained largely separated - gene flow hard to estimate but likely present.
For J-L283 we really have troubles to connect it early on, but what we know is that latest by the MBA, the Proto-Illyrian autosomal profile was already developed and expanded. Its therefore good for this video to let it start around 1.600 BC, which is when at the one hand Tumulus culture pushed them somewhat West and they were already moving with the whole package. Because what was before is, as of now, completely open.
We need Cetina samples for comparison, Apennine Italians, Castellieri - and it will be interesting to see in which exact group J-L283 was earlier, around the Carpathians, when coming in from the steppe presumably.

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Those are some really interesting possible Albanian connections. We should start mapping these out.

Mapping what? The imagination of someone? Is this possible? It's simply ridiculous! Inventing theories about the ethnogenesis of a nation, talking about history without quoting a single historical source! This is pure nonsense.
Matziger is just a charlatan, part of the team of the deconstruction of the history of the Albanian Nation, together with Schmitt, etc.

P.S.
The toponym Grapa on the Serbian side probably is from Italian, grappa = raki, lol. Unbelievable!!!!!

 

[Johane Derite]

Mapping what? The imagination of someone? Is this possible? It's simply ridiculous! Inventing theories about the ethnogenesis of a nation, talking about history without quoting a single historical source! This is pure nonsense.
Matziger is just a charlatan, part of the team of the deconstruction of the history of the Albanian Nation, together with Schmitt, etc.

P.S.
The toponym Grapa on the Serbian side probably is from Italian, grappa = raki, lol. Unbelievable!!!!!

Hahaha, keep crying child.

 

[Dushman]

Pretty sure he's Bosnian. Would explain the stubborn kumpir head spouting stupid theories for years despite being proven wrong over and over again.

Riverman would be more toreable if he contained himself in a single thread. Seeing him just vomit all over Albanian threads on multiple forums, every single day for years, is extremely tiresome. We get it dude. E-V13 = Daco-Thracian. Every single person in SE Europe is a Thracian. Very cool my guy.

You mean he’s the Kipchak/Cuman from Bosnia? Maybe, I don’t know. He was quite knowledgeable on E-V13 clades around the Balkans.

My only criticism with Riverman or anyone else is being overconfident on personal speculations.

 

[Riverman]

You mean he’s the Kipchak/Cuman from Bosnia? Maybe, I don’t know. He was quite knowledgeable on E-V13 clades around the Balkans.

My only criticism with Riverman or anyone else is being overconfident on personal speculations.

I had the same opinion on Bell Beakers, to explain it by "communication", "trade" and "feasting networks" or whatever...

By then I was surprised however, how clear cut, how big their impact was. I was sure it would be huge, but I got surpised by the true extent and speed of the replacement.

With Corded Ware I was even more sure, but GAC caught me somewhat by suprise, because I thought they should have more Corded influence, they had not.

However, talking about "my main theory", the big difference to those of the past is that we already have a lot of modern and ancient DNA data, which all support one interpretation (spread of E-V13 with Channelled Ware) and refute most other explanations (like Illyrian spread or local continuity in the Balkans).

There is just no way that groups like Belegis II-G?va, Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo can't be E-V13 heavy. The whole data we got (modern DNA, ancient DNA, archaeology, linguistics, historical accounts) would make absolutely no sense if not. One line of evidence might seem thin at first look, while having already a good probability, but taking all lines of evidence together, I simply can't believe anything else being correct at this point. That's a probability game and the probabilities for Channelled Ware playing no role for E-V13, while Illyrian spread or Balkan continuity being correct are just so low by this point. Probably not zero, but so damned low...

 

[Johane Derite]

The links of our past are in Dacia Meditarranea. Just west of the Bulgarian capital there is a valley called Burel, seems to be related to the Albanian word berryl(elbow), the valley has a 90 degree angle turn, thus shaped like an elbow. At the heart of medieval Albania, in the Mat valley is the village/town of Burrel.
There many toponyms in this area of Bulgaria and on the Serbian side of the border that seem to stem from Albanian, and borrowed by the Slavs as shown by Slavic pronouncation. This is my finding by simply scanning the areas west of Sofia: Kambelevtsi (from Alb. kumbulla, plum), two villages named Dreatin (related to Albanian Drite(light), there are settlements in Albania named Drite),Bukorovtsi (from Albanian bukur), Arzan (same as Albanian villages named arrez, from the word arre (farm land)), Buzovitsa from Albanain buze(many such toponym derivates in Albania), Lyalintsi from Albanian lala(this toponym existed even in Peloponnese where Albanians settled near Patras), on the Serbian-Bulgarian border there is the Ruy mountain which can be related to the Albanian word for safety/protection ruj. Village of Giginitsi (gheg). Village of Oresha (similar to Orosh in Mirdite). Village of Bilintsi, could derive from blini. Village of Gintsi (probably from Gjin, which would equate to Ivan).

On the Serbian side of the border is the village Grapa (Gropa in Albania from the word for hole/depression in the land), village of Postalica from Albanian posht(lower), there are also two settlement with similar name Petrilje and Petrlas which reminds me of the Albanian fort and settlement of Petrela near Tirana where the first Albanian principality appears. Village of Dumbija(from the word tooth dhemb? like dhembel mountain), village of Lalinice again from lala just has a Serbian pronounciation. The village of Gaginice (gheg). Village of Resen (same as Reshen in Mirdita).

I am sure there can be more toponyms. But I more interested to look into any census data from the Middle Ages from these villages and nearby area. A proto-Albanian people clearly stayed behind and got assimilated over time but the Albanian heritage and names would have lingered for some time and would be easy to detect if we can get our hands such documents. I don't know if the Bulgarian empire(s) took any population census, if there isn't any, we should try to look into Byzantine records of the area and early Ottoman, because the Ottomans took over in the late 1300s and took defters right away.

Another possible relation is "Bukurovac" in South East Serbia, a bit east of Nish.

Obviously there is some sort of relation with Albanian. Bukur here, important to test what type of relation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukurovac?oldformat=true

 

[Pashai Janinës]

Hahaha, keep crying child.

You are an retarded individual. Shame on you!
Keep talking about Illyrians with xhubleta in Arvan Valley in France, lol. You invented an whole story then. Now you should cry.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Judging by how people like to change their theories to fit the missing data, which is so backward it ain't even funny, I predict that if no V13 is found around where these folks are now claiming Albanian originated, aka Romania, then they will say proto-Albanian for sure did not have an early foothold around Albanopolis/North Albania, it rather came from Anatolia. And when no samples show up in Anatolia either, they will say, but no it was cremation.

Any of those could of course turn out true, but people taking the lack of evidence as evidence itself is really bordering insanity. Too much ado about nothing. Theories weaved on wet sand foundation.

I might have the theories I root for, everyone does, its part of subjective nature of humans. But no one can say I was building fanfictions about L283 Illyrians when we did not have samples, even though we had a few (Croatia/Etruscan/Nuragic). In fact if anything I started out as a noob backing the Anatolian hypothesis (irony considering the upcoming paper/s), then had to change my theories to fit the data not vice versa. Some people need to draw lines, on how and when they are wrong, else they live in delusions, or worse like Johane, probably real life struggle induced illusions of grandeur / narcissism. Imagine half a forum teasing ones mental struggle.

 

[Riverman]

Concerning real data, I will be rather pissed off and disappointed if a Serbian centred paper gets not a single Basarabi related sample. I mean they are such an important group for the early Iron Age, Thracians, Triballi and such, and while we might discuss how much local influence and later (Cimmerian) admixture they got, they should be by and large have a good portion of Channelled Ware ancestry. If both Basarabi and Psenichevo have a good amount of E-V13, the equation of Proto-Thracian = E-V13 being proven even without a lot of samples from the Upper Tisza G?va.

If they don't have such samples, it would be such a big failure and missed opportunity. They should have sampled not just one, but a dozen or so samples from the Basarabi-related context. Since there is no Serbian Iron Age on the PCA, I have my doubts, but hope dies last.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Concerning real data, I will be rather pissed off and disappointed if a Serbian centred paper gets not a single Basarabi related sample. I mean they are such an important group for the early Iron Age, Thracians, Triballi and such, and while we might discuss how much local influence and later (Cimmerian) admixture they got, they should be by and large have a good portion of Channelled Ware ancestry. If both Basarabi and Psenichevo have a good amount of E-V13, the equation of Proto-Thracian = E-V13 being proven even without a lot of samples from the Upper Tisza G�va.

If they don't have such samples, it would be such a big failure and missed opportunity. They should have sampled not just one, but a dozen or so samples from the Basarabi-related context. Since there is no Serbian Iron Age on the PCA, I have my doubts, but hope dies last.

See my friend. You fail to see the third scenario. Do you not agree? One potentiality there is not even considered.

 

[Southpaw]

Judging by how people like to change their theories to fit the missing data, which is so backward it ain't even funny, I predict that if no V13 is found around where these folks are now claiming Albanian originated, aka Romania, then they will say proto-Albanian for sure did not have an early foothold around Albanopolis/North Albania, it rather came from Anatolia. And when no samples show up in Anatolia either, they will say, but no it was cremation.

Any of those could of course turn out true, but people taking the lack of evidence as evidence itself is really bordering insanity. Too much ado about nothing. Theories weaved on wet sand foundation.

I might have the theories I root for, everyone does, its part of subjective nature of humans. But no one can say I was building fanfictions about L283 Illyrians when we did not have samples, even though we had a few (Croatia/Etruscan/Nuragic). In fact if anything I started out as a noob backing the Anatolian hypothesis (irony considering the upcoming paper/s), then had to change my theories to fit the data not vice versa. Some people need to draw lines, on how and when they are wrong, else they live in delusions, or worse like Johane, probably real life struggle induced illusions of grandeur / narcissism. Imagine half a forum teasing ones mental struggle.

This is from a scientific paper, not cajtore thrash-talking dehumanizing Bedri or Hasan because he didn't say hello in the morning to them:

Individuals from the first cluster fall on an area of the PCA delimited by the “ Balkan Iron Age cline” (Figure 1A). Consistent with this, we model the ancestry of this Balkans Iron Age Cluster as predominantly deriving from Iron Age (IA) groups from nearby areas in the Balkans, with 67% Aegean Bronze Age-related ancestry and the remainder Slovenia Iron Age-related ancestry (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.1). A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Y-chromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans 17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living at Viminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial and later periods (∼47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE).

Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated 18, but this changed in Viminacium where inhumation became common suggesting a high degree of Romanization of the local society.

Viminacium necropoli followed a bi-ritual mortuary rite where some dead were buried, and some were cremated. During the 1st century until the first half of the 3rd century cremations where more common, however this changed from the 3rd onwards when inhumations prevailed 19.

We caution that if there was a systematic ancestry difference between the population that buried and the one that burnt its dead, we would of course be obtaining a biased representation of ancestry through ancient DNA analysis.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full

 

[Archetype0ne]

This is from a scientific paper, not cajtore thrash-talking dehumanizing Bedri or Hasan because he didn't say hello in the morning to them:

Hawk I do not see how that excerpt from the Danubian Limes paper contradicts any of my grievances. I hope you did not take my comments to mean E-V13 is not local for Dardania / Moesia during the roman period?
Cause by that standard of proof then E-V13 from 200CE Croatia is as local and an earlier sample. Or should I talk about the various clusters/genetic profiles and the authors conclusions from the Hun/Avar paper? I am sure you catch my drift.
But I do not play these games, as I have no horse to back on the matter. But don't misunderstand me, it gives me nausea when certain members try to copyright and monopolize Albanianess, its cringe handicap shit, no matter who does it. And I got a bone to pick when proto-Albanian could have been anywhere in BA-IA from Anatolia to Dacia but not in North Albania. C'mon now...

 

[Johane Derite]

This is from a scientific paper, not cajtore thrash-talking dehumanizing Bedri or Hasan because he didn't say hello in the morning to them:

EV13 being the dominant haplogroup ( (∼47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE)) of Moesians, must be some Delmato-Pannonians from the adriatic coast overcame all the Moesians and got entirely assimilated.

Interesting that you mention the name Bedri and Hasan, these two names show up among many Delmato-Pannonians in Turkey, must be a Delmato-Pannonian name.

 

[Johane Derite]

Judging by how people like to change their theories to fit the missing data, which is so backward it ain't even funny, I predict that if no V13 is found around where these folks are now claiming Albanian originated, aka Romania, then they will say proto-Albanian for sure did not have an early foothold around Albanopolis/North Albania, it rather came from Anatolia. And when no samples show up in Anatolia either, they will say, but no it was cremation.

Any of those could of course turn out true, but people taking the lack of evidence as evidence itself is really bordering insanity. Too much ado about nothing. Theories weaved on wet sand foundation.

I might have the theories I root for, everyone does, its part of subjective nature of humans. But no one can say I was building fanfictions about L283 Illyrians when we did not have samples, even though we had a few (Croatia/Etruscan/Nuragic). In fact if anything I started out as a noob backing the Anatolian hypothesis (irony considering the upcoming paper/s), then had to change my theories to fit the data not vice versa. Some people need to draw lines, on how and when they are wrong, else they live in delusions, or worse like Johane, probably real life struggle induced illusions of grandeur / narcissism. Imagine half a forum teasing ones mental struggle.

Oh, here comes another one of the geniuses yet again. Now he is doing psychoanalysis free of charge. You see, you attack me, and then retreat and ask me to be polite to you? You are a bottom feeder loser.

Seriously what is wrong with your reading comprehension? You should go see a specialist or something and do some tests because you are constantly getting yourself worked up about your own inability to understand basic lines of reasoning.

When did I ever say proto-Albanian came from Romania? Is Nish and Shtip in Romania? This is where we need to start seeking proto-Albanian and work backwards, since Albania doesn't show pre-roman Albanian language features according to the linguistic data.

I don't know where proto-Albanian came from, but clearly all the linguists saying that the accent rules of toponyms in Albania are post-roman means thedata doesn't favour a pre-Roman presence of Albanian in Albania.

You say:

"had to change my theories to fit the data not vice versa."

Well, the latest linguists that have studied Albanian and Old Albanian in depth have just published a book about how Albanian does not descend from the Illyrian language, based on the existing linguistic data.

Medieval specialists like Bowden also have written papers about how the komani narrative constructed by communists doesn't match the data.

This is all I see when you and your crew of clowns are crying and throwing tantrums:

 

[Archetype0ne]

Oh, here comes another one of the geniuses yet again. Now he is doing psychoanalysis free of charge. You see, you attack me, and then retreat and ask me to be polite to you? You are a bottom feeder loser.

Seriously what is wrong with your reading comprehension? You should go see a specialist or something and do some tests because you are constantly getting yourself worked up about your own inability to understand basic lines of reasoning.

When did I ever say proto-Albanian came from Romania? Is Nish and Shtip in Romania? This is where we need to start seeking proto-Albanian and work backwards, since Albania doesn't show pre-roman Albanian language features according to the linguistic data.

I don't know where proto-Albanian came from, but clearly all the linguists saying that the accent rules of toponyms in Albania are post-roman means thedata doesn't favour a pre-Roman presence of Albanian in Albania.

You say:

"had to change my theories to fit the data not vice versa."

Well, the latest linguists that have studied Albanian and Old Albanian in depth have just published a book about how Albanian does not descend from the Illyrian language, based on the existing linguistic data.

Medieval specialists like Bowden also have written papers about how the komani narrative constructed by communists doesn't match the data.

This is all I see when you and your crew of clowns are crying and throwing tantrums:

tl:dr

All I can say is that the struggle you might be going through in life right now will only make sense in retrospective, put your mental health first, it gets better.

 

[Riverman]

Hawk I do not see how that excerpt from the Danubian Limes paper contradicts any of my grievances. I hope you did not take my comments to mean E-V13 is not local for Dardania / Moesia during the roman period?
Cause by that standard of proof then E-V13 from 200CE Croatia is as local and an earlier sample. Or should I talk about the various clusters/genetic profiles and the authors conclusions from the Hun/Avar paper? I am sure you catch my drift.
But I do not play these games, as I have no horse to back on the matter. But don't misunderstand me, it gives me nausea when certain members try to copyright and monopolize Albanianess, its cringe handicap shit, no matter who does it. And I got a bone to pick when proto-Albanian could have been anywhere in BA-IA from Anatolia to Dacia but not in North Albania. C'mon now...

There were just two local people of significance in that wider area:
- Thracians/Dacians
- Celts

Illyrians were there too, but never as impactful or important.

So its a simple choice, if talking about the locals: Thracian or Celtic origin? And we know that the Celts in the region being overwhelmingly R-L2 with local pick ups - in that area local pick ups just means Thracian.

Add to that the Psenichevo finds and the concentration of E-V13 along the Tisza-Danube in all larger samples from later times, plus the absence in the BA Balkans. What exactly is being left?

The area along the Tisza-Danube was continuously dominated by Channelled Ware and its descendants (Danubian Fluted Ware, Psenichevo, Bosut-Basarabi, Ferigile, Eastern Vekerzug, Dacians etc.).

 

[Southpaw]

Hawk I do not see how that excerpt from the Danubian Limes paper contradicts any of my grievances. I hope you did not take my comments to mean E-V13 is not local for Dardania / Moesia during the roman period?
Cause by that standard of proof then E-V13 from 200CE Croatia is as local and an earlier sample. Or should I talk about the various clusters/genetic profiles and the authors conclusions from the Hun/Avar paper? I am sure you catch my drift.
But I do not play these games, as I have no horse to back on the matter. But don't misunderstand me, it gives me nausea when certain members try to copyright and monopolize Albanianess, its cringe handicap shit, no matter who does it. And I got a bone to pick when proto-Albanian could have been anywhere in BA-IA from Anatolia to Dacia but not in North Albania. C'mon now...

I never labelled them something else, in fact the E-V13 in Western Hungary, in La Tene, i checked Hungarian archaeologists and they consider that site as pure Pannonian-Illyrian. So we already have one Pannonian Illyrian sample from 300-400 B.C. and 2-3 in 0-200/300 A.D.

Despite that, i am not insisting on a single linguistic theory, i like to consider various options. Both linguistic and archaeogenetic. But, i feel we already exhausted the possible material, and let's wait for some full samples so we can talk with some confidence.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I never labelled them something else, in fact the E-V13 in Western Hungary, in La Tene, i checked Hungarian archaeologists and they consider that site as pure Pannonian-Illyrian. So we already have one Pannonian Illyrian sample from 300-400 B.C. and 2-3 in 0-200/300 A.D.

Despite that, i am not insisting on a single linguistic theory, i like to consider various options. Both linguistic and archaeogenetic. But, i feel we already exhausted the possible material, and let's wait for some full samples so we can talk with some confidence.

I totally agree, that's why I wanted to point out that while I have reservations for the Balkan Limes modern pops autosomal models, where they modeled Albanian as ~50% Slavic; on the other hand I think the section about ancient samples, including the one about E-V13, is totally valid and expected IMO. I meant in no way to discredit it, in fact its in line with my worldview. Just wanted to stress that we should be aware of what standards we use, and to what they relate, as I see conflicting sides all the time use the same standard for different conclusions, when I think in both cases its inconclusive at best.

As you might have noticed I take your comments way more seriously as from the vibe I think there is no baggage behind them. So what do you think of the leaked PCA with IA Albania. How does that factor in the calculus? Myself I am still weary about PCAs, even if it really slots well in my worldview.

On another note, as for BG IA, how sure are we that this is going to be representative of IA Bulgaria? Its one sample IIRC and quite different from BA samples from the region. But when I revisit the leaked PCA it seems to be representative. Meaning if its representative we have quite different profiles in the Balkans for the period.

It will be very interesting to see what formal stats come up with, too many variables to keep in mind.

 

[Archetype0ne]

There were just two local people of significance in that wider area:
- Thracians/Dacians
- Celts

Illyrians were there too, but never as impactful or important.

So its a simple choice, if talking about the locals: Thracian or Celtic origin? And we know that the Celts in the region being overwhelmingly R-L2 with local pick ups - in that area local pick ups just means Thracian.

Add to that the Psenichevo finds and the concentration of E-V13 along the Tisza-Danube in all larger samples from later times, plus the absence in the BA Balkans. What exactly is being left?

The area along the Tisza-Danube was continuously dominated by Channelled Ware and its descendants (Danubian Fluted Ware, Psenichevo, Bosut-Basarabi, Ferigile, Eastern Vekerzug, Dacians etc.).

Riverman, I am sorry man. But when I think of some logical streams you follow. As in your recently revised one, where one E-V13 shows up in any Gava that means this particular branch is proto Thracian and that is all that is required... I find the standard very weak. This will sound ridiculous to you, but looking from my perspective if some member on fora for years was saying the East African branch found in Viminacium was proto-Thracian, and then we saw no samples for a while, and he switched the standard for one sample to vindicate the whole theory. The moment we got the Limes paper he would claim righteousness. Yes I know the analogy is weak, especially when talking about modern distributions. But you catch my drift I hope. Don't take the analogy too seriously.

In my mind between you and Brumzi its a cointoss. But regarding your theory I have a different standard of proof to yours. The moment we get proto-Gava with say wide diversity or upstream V13 samples in at least 40-60% density among sites, then I will have to admit you are right.

About Bassarabi though, how connected was Bassarabi to Illyrians? Could you enlighten me? Did they trade? Intermarry? What about burial rites? What was the relationship? As I saw Bassarabi appear in one of the maps you shared as the fringe of Illyrian lands. Imo this could be a good target zone for when/where E-V13 and L283 met, the rest is history.

 

[Riverman]

Riverman, I am sorry man. But when I think of some logical streams you follow. As in your recently revised one, where one E-V13 shows up in any Gava that means this particular branch is proto Thracian and that is all that is required... I find the standard very weak. This will sound ridiculous to you, but looking from my perspective if some member on fora for years was saying the East African branch found in Viminacium was proto-Thracian, and then we saw no samples for a while, and he switched the standard for one sample to vindicate the whole theory. The moment we got the Limes paper he would claim righteousness. Yes I know the analogy is weak, especially when talking about modern distributions. But you catch my drift I hope.

If E-V13 would have showed up all around and G?va would have used inhumation, with us getting dozens of samples from regular burials, of course one E-V13 sample would be ridiculous. But as things are, any E-V13 find is huge and finding it even close to G?va will be a game changer. Fact is, the locals did cremate from Nyirseg EBA in some regions up to the Avar or even Christian period! I means seriously, cremation being a real and very big thing, especially for the EBA-EIA in the Upper Tisza/Eastern Carpathian region.
And the date for E-V13 based on the modern DNA sampling and phylogeny is absolutely clear: A big scale explosion of lineages and new branches happened in the Transitional Period, right when Channelled Ware expanded. That's just a fact.
Many of these new lineages had to live together by that time, but haven't seen each other afterwards, because they expanded in different directions.

But regarding your theory I have a different standard of proof to yours. The moment we get proto-Gava with say wide diversity or upstream V13 samples in at least 40-60% density among sites, then I will have to admit you are right.

For that to happen we would need another Tollense battle site. No other way, because regulars in G?va being, as a rule, always cremated. We can only go for earlier finds and groups which got under foreign influence and adopted inhumation, iike Basarabi and Babadag. Or the Psenichevo finds we already got. They were Channelled Ware descendants.

About Bassarabi though, how connected was Bassarabi to Illyrians? Could you enlighten me? Did they trade? Intermarry? What was the relationship? As I saw Bassarabi appear in one of the maps you shared as the fringe of Illyrian lands. Imo this could be a good target zone for when/where E-V13 and L283 met, the rest is history.

It seems they did trade, intermarry and fight, throughout their existence. Illyrians pushed them East and took Srem, at the same time we find Basarabi influences deep in Illyrian territory. So kind of neighbours which did exchange, trade or fight, depending on the current situation. That's why by that time, but even earlier, when Channelled Ware expanded, E-V13 can pop up in Illyrians and J-L283 in Thracians, occasionally. Because there was exchange and migration on a smaller scale.

But looking at the bigger picture, its about the ratio and diversity. Like if looking at the E-V13 : J-L283 ratio, its very clear that Basarabi should be E-V13 dominated, and Glasinac-Mati J-L283 dominated.
Just like Slavs could have Germanic R1b and I1, but Germanics had more of it and being the source of these lineages among Slavs.