OFFTOPIC: Kurds as Indo-Europeans & Indo-European haplogroups

[Yetos]

It is possible I guess. And so both r1b and r1a would have gone that way?

yes, that also explains the gedrosian component,

Yet with another discuss in the forum seems like Myceneans started to make personality in Vatin Serbia, Thracian in Cotofeni and to me Celts in Vucovar Croatia, yet the arquements were stronger over Urnfield before La-tene for Celts,

well personally the only thing I do not arque is the arsenic bronze road from maykop to Danube, that is a fact in many ways, the rest are tested theories, which sometimes combine and sometimes arque,

a good question, Greco-Aryan were spoken in minor Asia before or after Hettit?
Thracian R1b came from North or from minor Asia?
if Myceneans came from North, then why ancient Greeks name the Liligi people (mushroom = Mycenae = Liligi in summerian) that came from Lydia?
could IE be a 2 wave expand? 1 in neolithic farmers (G2 HG), 2 in Bronze age (R1)

 

[jjmuneer123]

Yes and I showed u a link that showed that the skull dimensions were within the Polish norm. Poles are usually considered short-skulled, so clearly then the Androvovo skulls were short-skulled as well.

It doesn't, because if the skulls are clearly long skulled, they can't be the same as polish short skulled ones. And Poles aren't all "short-skulled", I've actually seen many Polish people with long skulls. Even so that doesn't signifny they are indo-iranian descended. Skull shape alone cannot determine if they are descended from them. I can bet you if those skulls in andronovo were tested, a Kurd would be closer to them genetially than a Pole.

 

[Templar]

I can bet you if those skulls in andronovo were tested, a Kurd would be closer to them genetially than a Pole.

Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.

 

[Goga]

Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.

If you test Indo-European graves in Kurdistan you will find lots of J2a. So it depends where those Indo-European graves are from.

I'm 100% sure that ancient Indo-European Anatolians, Persians and the Medes were also partly J2a folks.

If you test ancient Indo-European graves in the Balkans you will find lots of hg. 'E' or hg. 'I' etc.


BTW, Kurds, but also other Iranians, Indians have much more R1a than the most Indo-European Europeans...

 

[Goga]

Actually it's pretty ridiculous to claim that r1a graves belong to PROTO-Indo-Europeans.

 

[Templar]

I'm 100% sure that ancient Indo-European Anatolians, Persians and the Medes were also partly J2a folks.

If you test ancient Indo-European graves in the Balkans you will find lots of hg. 'E' or hg. 'I' etc.

Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.

 

[Goga]

Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.

Exactly, and R1a was in Central Asia even thousands years before proto-Indo-European language was born. Do you see it now?

 

[zanipolo]

Well ofcourse, E and I (and also J) were in Europe before the Indo-European invasions. And likewise J was in the Middle-East before the invasions.

G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

 

[sparkey]

G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

How did you come up with that?

 

[Templar]

Exactly, and R1a was in Central Asia even thousands years before proto-Indo-European language was born. Do you see it now?

You are saying that Indo-European languages formed when R1a nomads (from Central Asia) mixed with certain people in West Asia, and then they migrated into Europe?

 

[Templar]

G, T, L and Q where in europe before I and E
most where hunter gathers but G always became farmers

G,T,L, and Q are rare in Europe. Why are you even mentioning them? We already concluded that haplogroup I and maybe some subclades of E, are the oldest ones in Europe. Then came J and more E, during the neolithic revolution. And then eventually came r1b and r1a, during the Indo-European conquests.

 

[Yetos]

How did you come up with that?

no matter my knowlwdge are limited I also share that,

G2 is connected with early neolithic agricultural expand

and since you probably know, when J2 starts to enter Europe?

that answer is key to a second boom agricultural wave, which can be another solution to IE language.

 

[Yetos]

Templar

if R1b = IE then why Basques do not speak IE
if R1a =IE then why Caucasus R1a speak other non IE languages and Turkic population share big R1a
Tocharians yes they were R1a but they went to steppes from minor Asia,

they do not deny that R1b or R1a enter Europe at bronze age simply they ask how sure you are that they speak IE? and not Danae-Turkic? or what ever? and learn IE in Europe of G2a and I for example?
how sure you are that Maykop learn IE to the European steppe peope? Maykop is simmilar to Layla teppe which is not steppe culture but is south of caucas near Iran next to Kurdistan and Armenia. so could R1b learn IE from there and then expand and pass to European steppe,
for example look at the IE areas of non hunters-gatherers, from spain to India is full of J2, could IE be an agriculture 2nd wave after G2 at copper era? in that case yes R1b and R1a were steppe people but not IE speakers, yes they expand with the arsenic bronze and kurgans but learn them from south of Caucas areas before pass to maykop.

the only thing that connected IE with steppe was the common words with some Northern Languages like Finno-ugric (maybe I am wrong to that and is Caucasian) but on the other hand we have also connection with Akkadian which was not a steppe civilization.

I mean how certain you are that R1b spread IE, and not learn it from the previous?

 

[Templar]

if R1b = IE then why Basques do not speak IE

There is already a thread explaining that.

Turkic population share big R1a

That is pretty obvious. The IE homeland was central Asia, but today Central Asia is mostly Turkic; the two people mixed there.

I mean how certain you are that R1b spread IE, and not learn it from the previous?

Because R1a most likely spread from the East to West, with little to no interaction with West Asian people. If IE originated in the Middle/Near-East then this shouldn't be the case.

 

[jjmuneer123]

Actually many Indo-European graves have been tested, and they are usually R1a. They are never J1 and J2.

Kurds aren't J1 pred, and even so I'm talking about autosmal DNA, which as I said is what counts. And anyway they have already been tested, they show up as R1a-z93, which is Indo-Iranian marker. Autosmally they are the closest to modern day North eastern Iranic popuations and Kurds.

Just look at the indo-Iranian component as "persian" in 'DNA tribes':
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/3473/75590976.jpg
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/4255/23442613.jpg

 

[Templar]

persian

That doesn't equal Indo-European. Indo-Europeans were adapted to the cold environment of Central Asia. They had short, stocky bodies, with short limbs, and with round heads. Google "Allen's Rule" for an explanation as to why.

Persians were a mix of these migrants with the native West Asian population (who you call "Iranids").

 

[Yetos]

That doesn't equal Indo-European. Indo-Europeans were adapted to the cold environment of Central Asia. They had short, stocky bodies, with short limbs, and with round heads. Google "Allen's Rule" for an explanation as to why.

Persians were a mix of these migrants with the native West Asian population (who you call "Iranids").

Sory but in one hand we have mighty strong, huge body IE in Europe,
in another hand we have small body IE,
in 1 foot :grin: we have round heads ( i don't see that in tocharian mummies neither in mycenean and Thracian masks)
on the other foot tocharian were R1a but anatolian not steppe people,

yes we know R1b pass the caucasus North but return to teach Ie to R1b south of caucas (Hettits)?

Yes G2a3 was IE but existed at copper age much before entrance of R1a to west,

to many on the other side, don't you think?

good questions to answer,

Maykop spoke IE?
If Yes could IE be a language from Leyla teppe?

question2
How sure you are that I and J with G2a were not the IE farmers booming and R1b learn IE at Maykop and Yamnaa? and become a 'warrior rulers class'?

 

[Goga]

You are saying that Indo-European languages formed when R1a nomads (from Central Asia) mixed with certain people in West Asia, and then they migrated into Europe?

Uncivilized, backward and barbaric hg. R1a hunter-gatherers in northeast Europe were 'civilised' (Indo-Europised) either by hg. I2a folks from the Balkans or by hg. J2a folks from the Caucasus (like Maykop culture).

 

[Templar]

Uncivilized, backward and barbaric haplogroup R1a hunter-gatherers were 'civilised'

But they had horses, which gave them a huge edge in warfare. Don't you think it was more likely that THEY were the ones who Indo-europised the others? You don't need culture to conquer, just the right tools.

 

[Templar]

in 1 foot :grin: we have round heads ( i don't see that in tocharian mummies neither in mycenean and Thracian masks)

Relatively round. You yourself admitted that they had pronounced/wide cheeks. Keep in mind that the Tocharian mummies are dried up dead bodies, their faces look thinner than they would in real life. If you were add some muscle tissue and fat deposits, they would look very East European or Celtic. Both Celts and Slavs are known to have roundish races with big cheeks, yet they both also have the highest concentrations of r1/r1b. And the only ones in Europe who don't have these features, are the ones with high haplogroup I (Germanic people, and people in the Dinaric mountains), haplogroup J,E, (Southern Europeans). There seems to be a very clear pattern here.