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K7b Lazaridis et al. 2017 (Dodecad K7b)

bigsnake49 said:
Completely unscientific and based on a few data points but it seems that our Italian friends are closer to the Minoans and Myceneans than some of the modern Greeks. I would like some of the other Greeks that hang around here to take the test. Maybe they will make a liar out of me but I think the modern Italians had less admixture events than the Greeks.
Click to expand...

I think modern Pelopennesians would come out similar to Myceaneans. However, I haven't seen anyone on this board from there.

Below is a PCA I made for K7b with samples from Haak et al. 2015, Lazaridis et al 2017, and select eras from Antonio M. et al. 2019. It is mostly accurate, compared to the academic PCAs. However, R15 is wrong, since it is clustering with modern Northern Europeans. Also, the Greek sample from K7b seems to be perhaps from a more northern part of Greece. It is tough to see, though, it is between me, and C_Italy. Perhaps it is just due to how this calculator works, but I am usually, "West" of Greek samples; I am for K12b.

k3faB5M.png

Angela said:
I think we need samples with more steppe to fit us better.
Click to expand...
​

Indeed, above, I am bracketed between the Mycenaean, and Yamnaya clusters.
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #40FF00, align: right"]1.88018616[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #45FF00, align: right"]2.02316584[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #65FF00, align: right"]2.98481155[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #87FF00, align: right"]3.95773925[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFC00, align: right"]7.58703499[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD200, align: right"]8.80895567[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.57741462[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6700, align: right"]11.96443480[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004B, align: right"]17.20127030[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007F, align: right"]18.73890872[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008E, align: right"]19.18717540[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C7, align: right"]20.83918664[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DB00FF, align: right"]23.56318527[/TD]
[TD]Turkish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BB00FF, align: right"]24.49232533[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B500FF, align: right"]24.66211062[/TD]
[TD]Turks[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6D00FF, align: right"]26.79884326[/TD]
[TD]Syrians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6000FF, align: right"]27.18660884[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5500FF, align: right"]27.49257536[/TD]
[TD]Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4C00FF, align: right"]27.75671811[/TD]
[TD]Jordanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4B00FF, align: right"]27.80351956[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4500FF, align: right"]27.97716390[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4100FF, align: right"]28.09444251[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3F00FF, align: right"]28.13523947[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1B00FF, align: right"]29.20492595[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.95241025[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Wow is that close to Ashkenazy Jews or what? Then Sicilians then Sephardic Jews then Greeks.
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]adam[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]5.56978456[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAE00, align: right"]9.86920463[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8300, align: right"]11.15019282[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7700, align: right"]11.50790598[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.35573551[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]14.15913133[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001E, align: right"]15.88881997[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002A, align: right"]16.24245055[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0031, align: right"]16.43875604[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0034, align: right"]16.54025393[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0040, align: right"]16.89301039[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0059, align: right"]17.61596151[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0069, align: right"]18.08058351[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.57751060[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008D, align: right"]19.14544855[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0092, align: right"]19.30560022[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E4, align: right"]21.71154992[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F900FF, align: right"]22.67110496[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BC00FF, align: right"]24.48510976[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
kingjohn said:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]adam[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]5.56978456[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAE00, align: right"]9.86920463[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8300, align: right"]11.15019282[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7700, align: right"]11.50790598[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.35573551[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]14.15913133[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001E, align: right"]15.88881997[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002A, align: right"]16.24245055[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0031, align: right"]16.43875604[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0034, align: right"]16.54025393[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0040, align: right"]16.89301039[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0059, align: right"]17.61596151[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0069, align: right"]18.08058351[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.57751060[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF008D, align: right"]19.14544855[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0092, align: right"]19.30560022[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E4, align: right"]21.71154992[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F900FF, align: right"]22.67110496[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BC00FF, align: right"]24.48510976[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Great matches, @kingjohn. I do have a question though, not necessarily to you but to all. There is a large differences between the Myceneans themselves right? How can that be explained? Pelasgians and early Greeks?
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.34200956[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.68610657[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4600, align: right"]12.94122483[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4500, align: right"]12.96400787[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3100, align: right"]13.55992257[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.85918908[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0019, align: right"]15.72454451[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0028, align: right"]16.17341955[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0084, align: right"]18.89130752[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0098, align: right"]19.46426212[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E6, align: right"]21.75305726[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FA00FF, align: right"]22.65470150[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A600FF, align: right"]25.11627958[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A200FF, align: right"]25.23310326[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9F00FF, align: right"]25.33349364[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9A00FF, align: right"]25.48131668[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6F00FF, align: right"]26.73031051[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6600FF, align: right"]26.99465688[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2B00FF, align: right"]28.72409964[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0400FF, align: right"]29.87740785[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0300FF, align: right"]29.90239957[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.10030399[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.22263887[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.26925007[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.68868684[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Approximately the same suspects but at greater distances.
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]6.37029042[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]7.88775000[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.95893209[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]8.38101426[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC600, align: right"]9.16374923[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.51448370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8800, align: right"]11.00157261[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8400, align: right"]11.11255146[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.05934914[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002C, align: right"]16.28627029[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0047, align: right"]17.08722915[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007C, align: right"]18.65075334[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.42515380[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C3, align: right"]20.72999276[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CC, align: right"]21.00997382[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D5, align: right"]21.27521093[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F7, align: right"]22.25436137[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D200FF, align: right"]23.81640191[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B600FF, align: right"]24.66084751[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AE00FF, align: right"]24.87300947[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AA00FF, align: right"]25.00129997[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A200FF, align: right"]25.24782367[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9A00FF, align: right"]25.47632234[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50542295[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6600FF, align: right"]26.99235077[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hmmmm...this time Central Italians and then Greeks
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A7FF00, align: right"]4.91159852[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AAFF00, align: right"]5.00959080[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]5.41903128[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C8FF00, align: right"]5.86770824[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE400, align: right"]8.28165442[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]8.59172858[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6200, align: right"]12.11419828[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.58491160[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1000, align: right"]14.54003439[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0F00, align: right"]14.57078584[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003E, align: right"]16.83085856[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F800FF, align: right"]22.69202062[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E500FF, align: right"]23.27844067[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DF00FF, align: right"]23.43962030[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C200FF, align: right"]24.28525890[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AC00FF, align: right"]24.95423411[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9700FF, align: right"]25.55431470[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8700FF, align: right"]26.03458853[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5400FF, align: right"]27.51686392[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4000FF, align: right"]28.12577110[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2500FF, align: right"]28.90805770[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1D00FF, align: right"]29.14528778[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1000FF, align: right"]29.51726613[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1000FF, align: right"]29.54254221[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0900FF, align: right"]29.72345538[/TD]
[TD]Turkish[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Again Sicilians and central Italians before Greeks
 
It is worth mentioning, that the Philistine, ASH068, is similar to the other Myceanean samples. The others, are BA_Levantines, and ASH067 is a mixed individual between them.

There is a lot of Greek admixture in Ashkenazi Jews, among other European groups. Moreover, there has been admixture from south eastern Europe, into the Levant, throughout the ages.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.55584377[/TD]
[TD]ASH068[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20.30147285[/TD]
[TD]ASH067[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26.73322839[/TD]
[TD]ASH029[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]27.57081609[/TD]
[TD]ASH135[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30.74381564[/TD]
[TD]ASH066[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]33.78499371[/TD]
[TD]ASH033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]34.22080508[/TD]
[TD]ASH2-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]36.88504304[/TD]
[TD]ASH034[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]40.68090707[/TD]
[TD]ASH008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42.13864497[/TD]
[TD]ASH087[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.29715018[/TD]
[TD]ASH068[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24.75179993[/TD]
[TD]ASH067[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31.31179490[/TD]
[TD]ASH029[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]31.59808064[/TD]
[TD]ASH135[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]34.71323091[/TD]
[TD]ASH066[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]38.00821359[/TD]
[TD]ASH2-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]38.24450287[/TD]
[TD]ASH033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]41.30553958[/TD]
[TD]ASH034[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]45.08003327[/TD]
[TD]ASH008[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]46.51836842[/TD]
[TD]ASH087[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.80381771[/TD]
[TD]ASH068[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23.81889796[/TD]
[TD]ASH067[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]27.96274665[/TD]
[TD]ASH029[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]28.26997347[/TD]
[TD]ASH135[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]32.23177780[/TD]
[TD]ASH066[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]36.33625049[/TD]
[TD]ASH033[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]38.91225899[/TD]
[TD]ASH034[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]39.12660476[/TD]
[TD]ASH2-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42.22497247[/TD]
[TD]ASH087[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]42.51937323[/TD]
[TD]ASH008[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1400, align: right"]14.41333410[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0029, align: right"]16.21746898[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003F, align: right"]16.84759330[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0040, align: right"]16.87937795[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0050, align: right"]17.36177986[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0052, align: right"]17.41695151[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00AA, align: right"]19.99025262[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D1, align: right"]21.14857442[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D5, align: right"]21.25149877[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D6, align: right"]21.28967355[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E800FF, align: right"]23.17753654[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D400FF, align: right"]23.75997054[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BE00FF, align: right"]24.41527391[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7400FF, align: right"]26.59943984[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3E00FF, align: right"]28.17888216[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3B00FF, align: right"]28.27585896[/TD]
[TD]Cypriots[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #2000FF, align: right"]29.04586373[/TD]
[TD]Moroccans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1F00FF, align: right"]29.07965268[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1100FF, align: right"]29.49779992[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.18374897[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]32.05965377[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.31165262[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.52022375[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.57559233[/TD]
[TD]Egyptans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.71465853[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

This one is a neolithic sample and is away from everyone but still both Ashkenazy Jews and Sephardic and Moroccan Jews and Italians before Greeks.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Great matches, @kingjohn. I do have a question though, not necessarily to you but to all. There is a large differences between the Myceneans themselves right? How can that be explained? Pelasgians and early Greeks?
Click to expand...


i think this one ( I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
was not in the best coverage :thinking:
and he showed some levantine admixture
in eurogenes k13
in 4 populations he was modeled
50% Lebanese+ ( rest european)

the other one (I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese)
was in better coverage so this my real distance from Mycenaean 9.8

p.s
to answere your question i am not expert but there could have been some substructure in the Mycenaean
 
kingjohn said:
i think this one ( I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
was not in the best coverage :thinking:
and he showed some levantine admixture
in eurogenes k13
in 4 populations he was modeled
50% Lebanese+ ( rest european)

the other one (I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese)
was in better coverage so this my real distance from Mycenaean 9.8

p.s
to answere your question i am not expert but there could have been some substructure in the Mycenaean
Click to expand...

That's not what the study said, there is no Levantine in the Myceaneans. I'd suggest not trusting eurogenes, but the official paper. There is already an extensive thread on this matter.
 
I sort took Jovialis post #21 and decided to combine the Roman K7 coordinates (Antonio et al 2019) and Ancient Greek K7 (Lazaridis et al 2017) and run distances (cut off <=10). 3 Mycenaean's are still in that list. At 0.25X I get it pretty close, well really close.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1DFF00, align: right"]0.83982141[/TD]
[TD]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #31FF00, align: right"]1.42656931[/TD]
[TD]R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #39FF00, align: right"]1.68508160[/TD]
[TD]R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3CFF00, align: right"]1.75396693[/TD]
[TD]R32_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #3FFF00, align: right"]1.84111379[/TD]
[TD]R56_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #40FF00, align: right"]1.88055843[/TD]
[TD]R122_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #40FF00, align: right"]1.88801483[/TD]
[TD]R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #42FF00, align: right"]1.94787063[/TD]
[TD]R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #49FF00, align: right"]2.14513403[/TD]
[TD]R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #59FF00, align: right"]2.61122577[/TD]
[TD]R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6EFF00, align: right"]3.23077390[/TD]
[TD]R113_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #70FF00, align: right"]3.28645706[/TD]
[TD]R47_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #85FF00, align: right"]3.90117931[/TD]
[TD]R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]4.03136453[/TD]
[TD]R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]4.08694262[/TD]
[TD]R835_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8BFF00, align: right"]4.10084138[/TD]
[TD]R49_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8EFF00, align: right"]4.16408453[/TD]
[TD]R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8FFF00, align: right"]4.20110700[/TD]
[TD]R117_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]4.29206244[/TD]
[TD]R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9CFF00, align: right"]4.57546719[/TD]
[TD]R973_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9DFF00, align: right"]4.61968614[/TD]
[TD]R118_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A5FF00, align: right"]4.85639784[/TD]
[TD]R121_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]4.93154134[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A9FF00, align: right"]4.97722814[/TD]
[TD]R969_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AAFF00, align: right"]4.99195353[/TD]
[TD]R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B2FF00, align: right"]5.22896739[/TD]
[TD]R836_Imperial_Era_Civitanova_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]5.79497196[/TD]
[TD]R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C8FF00, align: right"]5.89158722[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]6.08517050[/TD]
[TD]R64_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]6.09579363[/TD]
[TD]R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]6.37355474[/TD]
[TD]R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]6.56041157[/TD]
[TD]R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E5FF00, align: right"]6.74245504[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E9FF00, align: right"]6.84029239[/TD]
[TD]R1549_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]7.38439571[/TD]
[TD]R970_Medieval_Era_Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEC00, align: right"]8.06102351[/TD]
[TD]R69_Imperial_Era_ANAS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE600, align: right"]8.23583633[/TD]
[TD]R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE300, align: right"]8.31398821[/TD]
[TD]R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.36538104[/TD]
[TD]R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]8.39415868[/TD]
[TD]R30_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDC00, align: right"]8.53855960[/TD]
[TD]R137_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]8.60519610[/TD]
[TD]R125_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD700, align: right"]8.66573136[/TD]
[TD]R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBD00, align: right"]9.45386693[/TD]
[TD]R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB700, align: right"]9.63031152[/TD]
[TD]R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]10.38092000[/TD]
[TD]R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]10.39096242[/TD]
[TD]R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.1416% / 0.14155023 | ADC: 0.25x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]42.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R131_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]15.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R80_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.4262% / 0.42621808 | ADC: 0.5x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]73.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]10.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R132_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.8081% / 0.80806989 | ADC: 1x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]97.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R52_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 0.8398% / 0.83982141 | ADC: 2x

[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]R437_Iron_Age_Palestrina_Selicata[/TD]
 
Jovialis said:
That's not what the study said, there is no Levantine in the Myceaneans. I'd suggest not trusting eurogenes, but the official paper. There is already an extensive thread on this matter.
Click to expand...

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310_0.pdf[/FONT][SUB]
[/SUB][/FONT]
 
Jovialis said:
The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4,5. However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/nature23310_0.pdf[SUB][/SUB]
Click to expand...


ok
thanks jovialis :good_job:
so that show that eurogenes k13 is not the best ....:thinking:
in mdlp k11 he also score basal ...
i guess those calculators can't handle ancient remains ....:thinking:
 
bigsnake49 said:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]6.37029042[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF200, align: right"]7.88775000[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.95893209[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]8.38101426[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC600, align: right"]9.16374923[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBB00, align: right"]9.51448370[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8800, align: right"]11.00157261[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8400, align: right"]11.11255146[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.05934914[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002C, align: right"]16.28627029[/TD]
[TD]Morocco_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0047, align: right"]17.08722915[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007C, align: right"]18.65075334[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0096, align: right"]19.42515380[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C3, align: right"]20.72999276[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CC, align: right"]21.00997382[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D5, align: right"]21.27521093[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F7, align: right"]22.25436137[/TD]
[TD]Romanians[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D200FF, align: right"]23.81640191[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B600FF, align: right"]24.66084751[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AE00FF, align: right"]24.87300947[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AA00FF, align: right"]25.00129997[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A200FF, align: right"]25.24782367[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9A00FF, align: right"]25.47632234[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9900FF, align: right"]25.50542295[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6600FF, align: right"]26.99235077[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Hmmmm...this time Central Italians and then Greeks
Click to expand...

This is my closest match among the Mycenaeans and Minoans.

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.48408692[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004F, align: right"]17.31640263[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I think it's my part Tuscan heritage which is pulling me closer, but I'm still too northern as a whole so I'm at a 13. After 19041 it gets into the 22s. Interestingly, I'm closer to the Greek Neolithic than to the Minoans.

As you said in one of your posts, the Mycenaeans vary a bit depending on the area. It looks to me like early, spotty admixture, which hadn't had time to homogenize. Some had more steppe, pulling them north, some less.

For what it's worth, in the very early days when Otzi's genome was released, the paper showed that after Sardinians, he was pretty close to certain Sicilians, which I interpreted to mean a lot of EEF with some Caucasus like dna, the latter of which Otzi also had.

Also, in very early days when they were trying to figure out who had a lot of EEF, Ashkenazi Jews turned out to have a lot of it, plus a good amount of Caucasus like dna.

What I'm getting at is that the Ashkenazim, because of their unique mixture of ancestry (EEF, Iran Neo/CHG, plus some steppe) turn out to be very similar to island Greeks, Southern Italian/Sicilians, and even "some", and I emphasize "some" Mycenaeans. I said until I was blue in the face that it didn't "necessarily" mean that all this "Jewish" dna went into the Southern Italian/Sicilian genome, no matter what some Calabrian rabbi convert, or old documents about Jews who converted might say, but in this "hobby", for various reasons, people believe what they want regardless...
 
it is probably a southern european gene flow
to the jews ( during 2000 years that we were in someone else backyard)
not the other way around
kind regards
adam
 
kingjohn said:
it is probably a southern european gene flow
to the jews ( during 2000 years that we were in someone else backyard)
not the other way around
kind regards
adam
Click to expand...

kingjohn: I think your post, Angela's as well, are on target. What is the direction of causality? to think of it in Statistical/Regression language. What is the Y (Dependent variable) vs X (explanatory/independent variable) in explaining the admixture into Southern Italian/Sicilian, Greeks, Ashkenazi Jews. I agree it is Southern European Gene flow into certain Jewish populations, not the other way around. I know when I run distances on modern populations, Ashkenazi Jewish distances are much closer than other Diaspora Jewish populations (Sephardic for example) and other Levantine populations (Syrian, Lebanon, Jordanian, etc).
 
I do believe that the direction of flow is mainly Jewish men taking goyim wives. That can be verified by looking at mt and Y-DNA haplos.
 
7.36650528I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
10.26614826I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
12.85325640I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
15.57055233I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
19.50467380I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
23.41702372I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
23.84516303I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
24.32356882I2495_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province
24.56317976I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
24.67506839I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
24.81119102I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
24.96022636I2499_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province
26.33523875I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
26.52846019I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
27.84392752I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
28.48974201I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
28.62323182I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
29.29516172I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
29.85156445I2683_Bronze_Age_Harmanören-Göndürle_Höyük_Isparta_Province
 
The issue is that no IBD segments of any consequence have been found between Ashkenazi Jews and Italians. Also, the mtDna, once you get down to a more granular level, doesn't really match.

My hunch is that a lot of the mixture actually took place in the Levant itself and in what used to be called Asia Minor, and so may be more ancient Greek like in origin.

That's just a hunch though. We need, as always, more ancient dna, not only from Israel at the appropriate time periods, but from Asia Minor, i.e. places like Antioch, Tarsus, Ephesus etc.
 
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