Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

[matadworf]

OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.

My experience as an observer of various models, calculators, etc. is that modern Peloponnesians vary from the more NW shifted (close to Albania, West Greek Macedonia, Thessaly, Central Italy) to more Southern shifted in the case of Tsakonians, Maniots who are much closer to Abruzzo, East Sicily, etc.

 

[D.L.M]

I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
https://media.springernature.com/fu...41431_2017_Article_BFejhg201718_Fig1_HTML.jpg

Shouldn't they be closer to each other?

 

[Mals]

OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.

It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.

The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.

 

[D.L.M]

It is quite unbelievable that this paper made it through peer review because it simply does not verify its hypothesis. Modern population not resembling North Slavs absolutely does not mean that Slavs did not overwhelm the region in the Middle Ages.

The whole paper is built on the obviously wrong assumption that absolutely nothing has happened in the Peloponnese from the 6th to the 19th century (even completely ignoring what Fallmerayer himself said about this period). Maybe the peer reivew panel did not include historians. Still, it is very disappointing to see these claims published.

I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia.
Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.

 

[Parapolitikos]

Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece.
He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles.
What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.

 

[bigsnake49]

Fallmeyer was not a scientist and he was not a statistician and neither was he a historian. Even Herodotus has been doubted and he did not have an agenda.

 

[Parapolitikos]

I agree that Slavs were not Ukranian-like by the time they reached Macedonia.
Peloponnesians are still closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarians (it would be very useful if this paper addressed it though, just to be sure). Your opinion has been said by several others here, no need to repeat the drama.

Slavs reached the Outskirts of Macedonia, few decades after they crossed the Danube.
The wars against the slavs started, and the end of their free roaming ended soon afterwards.Slavs from there after remained in the Balkan interior. After the initial push back and securing the borders, what ever Slavs managed to snick into the Greek space, they were dealt with forced relocation in deep Anatolia.

 

[matadworf]

Fallmerayer claimed a lot of nonsense with out any statistical evidence,based on his preconceived notions that he had before he even stepped a foot in Greece.
He also claimed earlier that Peloponnese was settled by Slavs. Fallmerayer claimed that Peloponnese was settled by Albanians, but the census 40 years later found that Arvanites were 20-30 000 in a Population of 500 000. And Again Arvanaites doesnt mean Albanians. They were always Bilingual as bilingual were as the Greeks of South Albania from where they came from. Fluent in Greek that they used for all official purposes but also speakers of some Tosk creole too. Vice versa many Albanian muslims in Epirus were speakers of greek, thus Ali pasha made Greek the official language of his state. Either way, those 23 and me dont really mean what you think they mean. At least it is very unlikely. What is very likely is that the algorithm is matching your admixtures ratio with those of Peloponnese, as they are the closest to your results, and that because there isnt a sufficient database on Albania. All Gedmatch Eurogenes breakdowns will tell you the same thing. A single population approximation would be some Southern Greek population, taking in mind the differences between kosovars and south Albanians, unless someone puts in the database other Albanian profiles.
What's your K13 breakdown? I bet it's ll be very close to the Peloponnese admixtures.

No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

K 13

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.63[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.99[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="width: 220"][/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"][/TD]

MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
K 23

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Peloponnesos ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.05[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.07[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Albanian_Tirana ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.94[/TD]

G 25
0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
0.02524797 Albanian
0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02822096 Italian_Marche
0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03157852 Italian_Molise
0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany

 

[matadworf]

No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

K 13

Greek_Thessaly

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.63[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.99[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="width: 220"][/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"][/TD]

MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
K 23

Greek_Peloponnesos ( )

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.05[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.07[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Albanian_Tirana ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.94[/TD]

G 25
0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
0.02524797 Albanian
0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02822096 Italian_Marche
0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03157852 Italian_Molise
0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany

The G25 Peloponnesian sample is pretty South shifted compared to the Gedmatch Peloponnesian samples.

 

[blevins13]

Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.

The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.

I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.

As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like.

Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.

After we have seen this:




You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one.
The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.

I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.



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[Parapolitikos]

After we have seen this:

View attachment 11897


You support this “study” of the past based on modern population.......come one.
The only way to be sure is to dig graves...urban and rural.....but you know this so why you support something without conclusive evidence. i am sensing a little conflict of interest here.

I still can’t explain my strong connection to Peloponnese and not to Sicily due to few Albanian enclaves. The logic should apply the same.



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Cause:
a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
Why would you match with them specifically?


b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.
[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]N.Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]baltic[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]West Med[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]west asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East Med[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Red Sea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]South Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Northeast African[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sicily[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.68[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]6.57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.64[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.54[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.51[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.56[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]14.36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.06[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.04[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.05[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.07[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]17.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.62[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

c) (guessing here) 23 and Me matches are based on number of samples you match in the 200 years ''relatives''

What it should perplex you more and most Albanians that taken the test who showed similar results, isn't why you match with Peloponnese (A) , but why you dont match better with the Albanian regions (B) .

If we take the maps on face value in accordance to your line of thinking, then the movement of population cannot be from Albania to Greece, but from Greece to the Albania region you live carrying Peloponesian DNA to Albania and that movement occurred in the last 200 years.

How else could you explain them?

 

[Parapolitikos]

I have one question why are South Tsakonians and Maniots, despite being of being both Laconians and the ''purest'' population in Peloponnese the least related to each other than to other Peloponnesians?
https://media.springernature.com/fu...41431_2017_Article_BFejhg201718_Fig1_HTML.jpg

Shouldn't they be closer to each other?

The depiction you should be looking is this.
What ever Diversity seems to be with in the group.

 

[Parapolitikos]

No Peloponnese in this breakdown:

K 13

Greek_Thessaly

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]3.63[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.98[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Central_Greek[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]6.99[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"][/TD]
[TD="width: 220"][/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"][/TD]

MDLP is a bit better but you can see the proximity between the Peloponnese/Thessaly/Southern Albanian in this calc.
K 23

Greek_Peloponnesos ( )

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]2.05[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Greek_Thessaly ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.07[/TD]

[TD="width: 40, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 220"]Albanian_Tirana ( )[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.94[/TD]

G 25
0.02160412 Greek_Thessaly
0.02524797 Albanian
0.02790092 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.02822096 Italian_Marche
0.03129597 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03157852 Italian_Molise
0.03232864 Italian_Tuscany

That was directed to the Albanian guy, i dont know my reply was attached elsewhere, but to comment on your post.
Some K13 versions and some calculators in general have neither Peloponnese or South Albania as populations.
I was suggesting he compare his Eurogenes K13 results manually (or visually if you prefer).
The ''glitch'' of 23&Me could be caused by many different factors. You could only know decisively once you know exactly what they mean by ''relatives in the last 200 years'' and how they match them. One possible explanation is that it has to do with the volume of samples that match yours admixturewise per region. Peloponese being a bigger and more populous (and in better economic shape) than the regions of Albania, could have much more matching samples of the specific admixture combination than any of the dozen or so regions of Albania of 23&me. That the tested Albanians dont seem to have as many ''relatives in the last 200 years'' from the Albanian regions, seems to suggest that too. But who knows.

 

[blevins13]

Cause:
a)Arbereshe should be substantially different from South Albanians and especially North Albanians if we assume by their Y-dna numbers also correspond to an autosomal admixture.
Why would you match with them specifically?


b)Why would you match to Sicily in general?
the highlighted chart below (although Albanian numbers are the national averages you can take an educated guess based on the Kosovar numbers that Baltic drops as you go southwards) indicate why not.
[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD="align: center"]N.Atlantic[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]baltic[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]West Med[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]west asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East Med[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Red Sea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]South Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]East Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Northeast African[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sicily[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17.68[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]6.57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.64[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.48[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.89[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.54[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.51[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.31[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.34[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.78[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18.56[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]14.36[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.06[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15.04[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.05[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.28[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21.07[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]17.56[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.81[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.62[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.25[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.07[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.17[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

c) (guessing here) 23 and Me matches are based on number of samples you match in the 200 years ''relatives''

What it should perplex you more and most Albanians that taken the test who showed similar results, isn't why you match with Peloponnese (A) , but why you dont match better with the Albanian regions (B) .
View attachment 11898
If we take the maps on face value in accordance to your line of thinking, then the movement of population cannot be from Albania to Greece, but from Greece to the Albania region you live carrying Peloponesian DNA to Albania and that movement occurred in the last 200 years.

How else could you explain them?

I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.

But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources.
These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.

If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.



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[Parapolitikos]

I don’t explain it.....but I can speculate about it like the author did in his paper, explaining the past based on modern population.

But wait mines are not speculation because they are based on different historical sources.
These sources say that there was a movement of Albanians to Peloponnese around 1300 and it seems bigger than that toward Sicily and Calabria around 1500.

If this is your test in 23 and me I would say that your are connected to people that came from Kelmendi and Laberia. Also many Kosovar get similar results, which probably relates all to Kelmendi.



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No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.

Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.

 

[blevins13]

No it's not my test. It's from an Albanian. Many Albanian gets similar results. It is a common story that the Albanians that report probable relatives from Peloponnese will also report the same about South Albania border region of Korytsa or Aylwna , where the bulk of the Greek community lives, and the northernmost region of Skoder. And that irrespective if they come form south Albanian or Kosovo or Fyrom.
The average admixtures of the regions, or the admixtures of the users from those regions match. Here are few more.
View attachment 11902
Alternatively , if there is a more in depth analyses by 23&me, you may have ancestry from the Muslim Muhajirs kicked out of Peloponnese in the early 1800s. As in everywhere else in the Ottoman Empire, the muslims of a region were mainly of local stock .Those Muslims from Peloponnese would resettle further north and eventually many found their way to the Albanian Muslim areas, which were the last areas of the Ottoman empire to declare their independence. Muslims of Peloponnese were few tens of thousands at the start of the revolution and they had to have resettled to some other region. They didn't disappeared. It is also completely natural to have moved to Albanian speaking areas as they were mixed with Turkoalbanians sent in the regions in the 18th century.In fact we know that they did.

What you seem to suggesting on the other hand it doesn't seem to be very likely for many reasons.
For starters even if they were true the way you envisioned them, they wouldn't be recent migrations.

So you are saying that numerous Muslim Albanians ( Turk-Alvani), left Peloponnesus around 1820 and were settled in Hiterland of Shkodra and Vlora....provide some reference for that.....I consider this scenario remote and less influential than the movement of Albanian highlanders after Black Death to Peloponnesus that is referenced from different historians. Considering the devastation of Black Death in Greek urban areas the Albanian Pastorals were less affected and this seems more probable.


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[Johane Derite]

There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.

Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.

It is clear here what is happening.

It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture.

This is irresponsible from 23andme.

 

[D.L.M]

There is absolutely no historical record of even a small population of Peloponnesian Greeks in Kosovo or North Albania, where many Albanians who do 23andme show up as having likely matches in the Peloponnese.
Whereas there are countless historical sources that attest to the Peloponnese having among the highest Arvanite settlements in all of Greece, some sources cite as much as ~40-50% Arvanite population.
It is clear here what is happening.
It is Peloponnesian Greeks that have Albanian admixture, not Kosovo and North Albanians that have "Greek" admixture.
This is irresponsible from 23andme.

Arvanites in 19th century were 15% of the Early Greek state 12.5% of Peloponesse and 3.7% of overall Greek population excluding Northern mainland and rural zones so around 4% to 5% in total. In 15th century in Peloponnese Arvanites were around 30% to 40% according to Ottoman census.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?

When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.

 

[D.L.M]

A lot of Albanians must have been absorbed into the Peloponnesian populations, if their numbers were higher in earlier times. In ethnographic/linguistic maps there were large Greek-speaking areas and specific Arvanite areas, like in Argolis. Why did Arvanites remain distinct in certain areas and not in others?

When it comes to Slavic admixture in Greece, it appears some are trying to rationalize the data and argue that Slavs were already heavily mixed with Balkan populations when they settled in Greece. I don’t think we know that answer. Greeks are not genetically very close to Balkan Slavs. It would seem that if Slavs were heavily mixed with Balkan populations, Greeks would be close to those populations, but looking at various maps they’re not that close. That implies that Slavic settlements had less impact in Greece.

Some Albanians did exchange their language with modern Greek during the centuries however some Albanians did leave Peloponnese for South Italy which reduced their number in Peloponnese, to what extend is another question. The population of Peloponnese was 200,000 in 17th century which indicates that most Arvanites stayed.

Albanians in Samos adopted the Greek language in late 18th century. Tsakonians did also adopt modern Greek too which reduced the number of Tsakonian speakers by the 19th century, this fact however seems reasonable for many but the Albanian version not.