• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Genetics of the Greek Peleponessus

Angela said:
It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.

Don't we know that yet?

There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.
Click to expand...

The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4109.JPG
    IMG_4109.JPG
    241.6 KB · Views: 243
Angela said:
It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.

Don't we know that yet?

There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.
Click to expand...

You are right no reason to discuss Fornovo here....in case there is interest for that someone can open a new thread. I believe that there has been a huge migration of Albanians and vllahe toward Greece after Black Death, and there historic reference for that. Being highlanders they were less affected.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Last edited:
blevins13 said:
You are right no reason to discuss Fornovo here....in case there is interest for that someone can open a new thread. I believe that there has been a huge migration of Albanians and vllahe toward Greece after Black Death, and there historic reference for that. Being highlanders there were less affected.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...
blevins13 said:
The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...

Vlachs diverge genetically from each other. There are group of Vlachs with extremely high Slavic R1a.
 
Angela said:
It's highly unlikely that any similarity between Albanians and Greeks rests solely or even in a substantial way on any movements in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. You need big migrations for big change.

Don't we know that yet?

There was also no reason to bring in the ill-fated battle of Fornovo and one view of it except to t-roll Albanians. Cut it out.
Click to expand...

I disagree with you that there was no substantial movements of any people in the middle-ages or renaissance period in Europe or the world
 
blevins13 said:
The relation of Albanian to Thessaly is probably related to the large Vlach community, that was present there around 1200.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...

Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.
 
Dianatomia said:
Thessalians have the highest rates of E-V13 of all Greeks. Vlachs in particular have less E-V13, than the average Greek. Similarly Vlachs have a high rates of R1b while Thessalians have the least of all Greeks. There is no clear link there. I think the Vlachs have been genetically overwhelmed by the Greeks. Even the Vlach villages which have survived in the Pindus mountains (their habitat) are probably a Greco-Vlach mix genetically. They are closer to the Greeks, than they are to Serbian Vlachs, who in their turn are closer to the Serbs. So this is not a Greek phenomenon. Nomads can not overwhelm settled inhabitants who inhabit cities and many villages. But their language and some customs can survive.
Click to expand...


If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
IMG_3246.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Lets not mix Aromani with Vlachs and with Romanians,

I said many times,
the researches show that both Armani and Romani are culturally connected, sometimes even genetically,
BUT IS NOT A Nationality,

Aromani
1. mainly are local balcanic population, Greeks Thracians etc who adopted the Roman language and culture wich was the elites for centuries to milleniums,
the could be farm workers, public issue, soldiers etc etc, but mainly around local Roman villas (Villachion-> βιλαετιον -> Vlach)
2 secondary are Roman Legion descentants, that was given land at retirement, especially in areas with high Roman presence, and mainly above Diocletian distinguish order of Greek or Latin language of Legion?
that connect them with every piece of Roman empire where they had the legion,

Romanians
1. the same with above
2 the same with above
3 The tribe of Antes , Antes was a Slavic tribe who got assimilated by Romans and East Romans and become Romeo-Latino phones, (Vlachophones)

The genetical connection of Vlach is searched many times, and always shows different groups,
Triantaphyllides of Auth even proved that in a range of about 40 km distance, the Vlachs of 2 communities share very litlle common genetical,
Yet we know that Vlachs are a strong cultural group, no matter their origin,
and very preservative,

The other view,
the term Vlach might be Greek origin,
According Homer there is a word Βληχη in Makedonian and Doric Βληχα Βλαχα menaing the sound of sheeps

That fits with the 3 first describes of Historians about the term Vlach,

1. Monastery of Βλαχαιρνων (Blachairnon not Vlachairnon) (pastoralis area outside the walls with many water fountains)
2 Pastores Romanorum (Blachii not Vlachii) Gesta Hungarorum.
3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kedrenos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skylitzes descibe them as seminomadic living in tents, and Guiders of Roman army and guardians of Romans


Now the big difference
Notice
Wales in Greek is turn as Ου -αλοι so Wallachians will be turn to Ουλλαχοι not vlachoi

But if I take the term in Slavic term Volxu cognates with Germanic Walhaz Walhiskaz meaning Celt or Foreigner.

So the major difference is on how they call their language
the usage of term Aromani Aramani Rami Ramani Armani Armanesti Armanestu Remi Aremani Armeni shows rather local origin
than the term Vlahisti or Blahisti.

many times in Greek a rude behavour man is called Βλαχος, Sometimes other tribes like sarakatsans or mountain breeders are call Vlaxoi.
THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VLACH-AROMANI IDENTITY, RATHER WITH GREEK TERM OF Βληχη and means either Sheppards-pastoralis people, either 'rusticus' rude.

So the Greek term of Bλαχος may have not same meaning with Slavic term Volxu.
Vlachs are identified to them shelves as Aromani Ramas etc
identification as Vlach is rather new and imported possible from Romania Wallachs or Slavic Vloxu
 
blevins13 said:
If by overwhelm you mean this they surely are, but this was not the situation around 1200 according to different sources.
View attachment 11831

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...

Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs nomadic tribes settled.
 
The effect of the Greeks from Asia Minor, if people are talking about the early twentieth century people exchanges, is irrelevant in terms of this paper.

The authors not only checked that each sample participant was descendant from four "local" grandparents, but they picked people old enough that those grandparents were all born in the late 1800s.

Clearly, they were aware of the problem in terms of sampling.
 
spartan owl said:
[TABLE="class: data"]
[TR]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: left"] [/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Belarusians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Russians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Polish[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Ukrainians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]French[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Italians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Basque[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Andalusians[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="align: left"]Deep Mani[/TD]
[TD]0.7 (0.1)[/TD]
[TD]1.6 (0.7)[/TD]
[TD]0.9 (0.4)[/TD]
[TD]1.0 (0.3)[/TD]
[TD]6.4 (3.5)[/TD]
[TD]25.3 (21.7)[/TD]
[TD]0.3 (0.2)[/TD]
[TD]7.6 (5.1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
[TD="align: left"]West Tayetos[/TD]
[TD]4.9 (5.1)[/TD]
[TD]8.6 (6.9)[/TD]
[TD]6.8 (5.4)[/TD]
[TD]6.5 (5.7)[/TD]
[TD]16.4 (12.7)[/TD]
[TD]41.5 (32.5)[/TD]
[TD]0.6 (0.5)[/TD]
[TD]15.2 (11.1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="align: left"]East Tayetos[/TD]
[TD]5.7 (3.4)[/TD]
[TD]10.9 (4.0)[/TD]
[TD]7.9 (3.7)[/TD]
[TD]8.0 (3.7)[/TD]
[TD]27.7 (4.8)[/TD]
[TD]58.0 (20.7)[/TD]
[TD]2.0 (1.4)[/TD]
[TD]27.0 (4.3)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
[TD="align: left"]North Tsakonia[/TD]
[TD]3.9 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]8.2 (2.1)[/TD]
[TD]5.0 (2.2)[/TD]
[TD]6.0 (2.2)[/TD]
[TD]26.7 (3.5)[/TD]
[TD]51.2 (4.6)[/TD]
[TD]1.5 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD]26.9 (3.5)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: last, align: left"]South Tsakonia[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.2 (0.0)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.9 (0.4)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.4 (0.1)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.6 (0.2)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]4.1 (2.9)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]14.2 (11.0)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]0.2 (0.1)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]5.3 (3.8)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
a The first number for each pair of populations indicates the average shared ancestry for values of K between 4 and 8, while the number in parenthesis indicates the s.d.

[TABLE="class: data"]
[TR]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: left"] [/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Belarusians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Russians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Polish[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Ukrainians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]French[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Italians[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Basque[/TH]
[TH="class: last rowsep, align: center"]Andalusians[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="align: left"]Argolis[/TD]
[TD]5.4 (1.5)[/TD]
[TD]12.2 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD]5.8 (0.8)[/TD]
[TD]6.8 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD]39.1 (19.2)[/TD]
[TD]94.7 (4.8)[/TD]
[TD]2.8 (1.4)[/TD]
[TD]60.5 (5.9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
[TD="align: left"]Corinthia[/TD]
[TD]5.9 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]13.0 (1.3)[/TD]
[TD]6.3 (1)[/TD]
[TD]7.5 (1.3)[/TD]
[TD]41.2 (18.5)[/TD]
[TD]94.9 (4.0)[/TD]
[TD]3.1 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]62.0 (5.9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="align: left"]Achaea[/TD]
[TD]6.5 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]13.8 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD]7.0 (0.8)[/TD]
[TD]8.1 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD]41.4 (18.4)[/TD]
[TD]94.8 (4.0)[/TD]
[TD]2.7 (1.4)[/TD]
[TD]61.3 (5.8)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
[TD="align: left"]Arcadia[/TD]
[TD]5.3 (1.8)[/TD]
[TD]10.9 (2.4)[/TD]
[TD]5.2 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD]6.2 (1.5)[/TD]
[TD]39.1 (18.2)[/TD]
[TD]85.4 (14.6)[/TD]
[TD]2.4 (1.4)[/TD]
[TD]53.8 (9.1)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="align: left"]Elis[/TD]
[TD]6.1 (1.3)[/TD]
[TD]13.1 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD]6.5 (0.8)[/TD]
[TD]7.6 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD]41.4 (18.3)[/TD]
[TD]95.0 (3.3)[/TD]
[TD]3.3 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]61.6 (5.6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #F6F6F6"]
[TD="align: left"]Messenia[/TD]
[TD]6.7 (1.7)[/TD]
[TD]14.4 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD]7.3 (0.9)[/TD]
[TD]8.5 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD]42.6 (18.4)[/TD]
[TD]95.2 (4.0)[/TD]
[TD]2.7 (1.3)[/TD]
[TD]61.8 (5.7)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: odd"]
[TD="class: last, align: left"]Laconia[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]4.8 (1.2)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]11.4 (1.5)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]5.2 (0.9)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]6.4 (1.1)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]41.1 (14.6)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]96.1 (2.3)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]2.3 (1.4)[/TD]
[TD="class: last"]59.8 (5.6)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="width: 601, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Population
[/TD]
[TD]N
[/TD]
[TD]Proportion of Pairs with IBD2
[/TD]
[TD]Mean (SD) Length (cM)3
[/TD]
[TD]Mean Pairwise IBD (cM)4
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]IBD Shared With Deep Mani (n=22)1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Achaea
[/TD]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD]44.2%
[/TD]
[TD]3.0 (1.1)
[/TD]
[TD]1.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Arcadia
[/TD]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]57.3%
[/TD]
[TD]3.0 (1.1)
[/TD]
[TD]2.6
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Argolis
[/TD]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]38.4%
[/TD]
[TD]3.1 (1.2)
[/TD]
[TD]1.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corinthia
[/TD]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]43.2%
[/TD]
[TD]3.0 (1.3)
[/TD]
[TD]1.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Tayetos
[/TD]
[TD]23
[/TD]
[TD]94.3%
[/TD]
[TD]3.7 (1.9)
[/TD]
[TD]35.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Elis
[/TD]
[TD]23
[/TD]
[TD]53.0%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.3)
[/TD]
[TD]2.7
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Laconia
[/TD]
[TD]26
[/TD]
[TD]73.8%
[/TD]
[TD]3.4 (1.5)
[/TD]
[TD]11.3
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Messenia
[/TD]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD]54.1%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.2)
[/TD]
[TD]2.8
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northern Tsakonia
[/TD]
[TD]9
[/TD]
[TD]65.2%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.3)
[/TD]
[TD]3.9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southern Tsakonia
[/TD]
[TD]15
[/TD]
[TD]69.1%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.4)
[/TD]
[TD]4.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West Tayetos
[/TD]
[TD]24
[/TD]
[TD]96.2%
[/TD]
[TD]3.6 (1.8)
[/TD]
[TD]36.9
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 5"]IBD Shared With Southern Tsakonia (n=15)1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Achaea
[/TD]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD]60.0%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.3)
[/TD]
[TD]3.3
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Arcadia
[/TD]
[TD]13
[/TD]
[TD]78.5%
[/TD]
[TD]3.4 (1.5)
[/TD]
[TD]5.1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Argolis
[/TD]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]65.8%
[/TD]
[TD]3.4 (1.6)
[/TD]
[TD]4.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Corinthia
[/TD]
[TD]16
[/TD]
[TD]70.4%
[/TD]
[TD]3.1 (1.2)
[/TD]
[TD]3.5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Deep Mani
[/TD]
[TD]22
[/TD]
[TD]69.1%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.4)
[/TD]
[TD]4.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East Tayetos
[/TD]
[TD]23
[/TD]
[TD]89.0%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.4)
[/TD]
[TD]7.0
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Elis
[/TD]
[TD]23
[/TD]
[TD]64.1%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.2)
[/TD]
[TD]3.2
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Laconia
[/TD]
[TD]26
[/TD]
[TD]88.0%
[/TD]
[TD]3.5 (2.0)
[/TD]
[TD]9.7
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Messenia
[/TD]
[TD]21
[/TD]
[TD]64.4%
[/TD]
[TD]3.2 (1.3)
[/TD]
[TD]3.5
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northern Tsakonia
[/TD]
[TD]9
[/TD]
[TD]100.0%
[/TD]
[TD]4.4 (2.7)
[/TD]
[TD]94.1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
People from Deep Mani be modeled as only 25.3% ~ Sicilian-like? Doesn't make any sense?
Edit: It must be refering to another Italian population.
 
Yuxx said:
ok, but why do most albanians score high for the peloponnese at 23andme?
Click to expand...

[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Gheg Albanians[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Arbereshe[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Kosovars[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"]E-V13[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]38%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]15%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, colspan: 1, align: right"]45.00%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"]E1b-xV13[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]13%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]25%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]3%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]13.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"]J2a[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"]R1b-L51 xP311[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]12%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]0%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, colspan: 1, align: right"]24%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"]R1b-M269 xL51[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]4.20%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]8%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"]I2a-M223[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]3.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, colspan: 1, align: right"]2.00%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"]I2a-xM26,M223[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]R1a-M17[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]3.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3"]I1-M253[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]3.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]5.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]3.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FAFAFA"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Most Albanians Doubt it.
Kosovars and north Albanians certainly.
Have less East European Admixture like Sicilians and Peloponnesians.
 
Parapolitikos said:
[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Gheg Albanians[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Arbereshe[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #660000"]Kosovars[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"]E-V13[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]38%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]15%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, colspan: 1, align: right"]45.00%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"]E1b-xV13[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1C232, align: right"]13%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]25%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]3%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]13.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"]J2a[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #1155CC, align: right"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"]R1b-L51 xP311[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]12%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]0%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, colspan: 1, align: right"]24%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000"]R1b-M269 xL51[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]4.20%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0000, align: right"]8%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"]I2a-M223[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]3.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, colspan: 1, align: right"]2.00%
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"]I2a-xM26,M223[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF"][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #00FFFF, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"]R1a-M17[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]10%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]3.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3"]I1-M253[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]3.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]5.30%[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFE2F3, align: right"]3.00%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FAFAFA"][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Most Albanians Doubt it.
Kosovars and north Albanians certainly.
Have less East European Admixture like Sicilians and Peloponnesians.
Click to expand...

I am from south Albania and I score high....?


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Dianatomia said:
Very few Greeks from Asıa Mınor settled ın Thessaly or Epirus. Most were settled in Northern Greece (Macedonia and Thrace) and Athens. Vlachs were overwhelmed already in Medieval times. It's just a minority in a region which has been absorbed by the locals. Genetically I think they were mixed with Greeks from the region already in the Middle Ages. As there have always been Greek towns and villages in the areas/mountains where Vlachs
nomadic tribes settled.
Click to expand...
You are Absolutely right.
Which make all those maps and charts circulating about ''Northern Greece'' and ''Northern Greeks'' false. I dont know what's even the point of drawing them as they dont reflect the reality. Not just the present genetic reality, obviously as it excludes all the refuges and all the mixed refuge-local people from the genetic profile of the region(more than 90% of the population), but also they dont reflect the past demographic profile of the region, the one before 1920. You cant exclude half the historic population of a region, like the Muslim Greeks, and expect to have realistic results. Most of those (autosomal)researches that amateur geneticists use to draw far reaching conclusions, also have many other methodological mistakes.To the researchers defense, these studies weren't design to reconstruct historical populations but for other purposes. But once you do use them in an attempt to reconstruct historical populations, you ll stumble on many unsolvable problems, like NOT taking into account the degree of mixing of locals with refugees. In some regions it is 100% in others(mountainous regions) it is zero. 1920 was 5 generations ago. Since you ll need non ''contaminated'' DNA samples to reconstruct the historical population, you ll need old persons , old enough to have 4 grandfathers from the region before 1920. Non mixed persons.
In some regions the proportion of non-mixed 80(-/+) year olds is 100% of the 80 year olds, in others is 10% and others have all the ranges in between. Since most of these researches treat Macedonia as one unit, what you ll get is disproportional representation of some areas that were unefected from both the population exchanges and the resettlements of refugees..
Lets say for example , it is possible(and very likely) that you ll have as many ''80 years old with 4 grandparents from the pre-1920 region '' in the border communities which represent 3-4% of the population as in the rest of Macedonia combined where half a million refugees mixed to high degrees with half a million locals for 100 years. 80 year olds with 4 grandparents from pre 1920 Macedonia, originating from the border regions, dont necessarily live in the border regions nowadays. Since then they have scattered all over Macedonia as internal economic immigrants. You ll need to control for that too, probably at the level of the village.
In order to reconstruct the historical population of Macedonia you will need thousands of samples, that reflect the geographic diversity and the regional population density of pre-1920 Macedonia.You would also need to correct for historical events of the 20thst century(famines,genocides,population exchanges etc etc)

Density and Impact of Refugees settlements.
f fgfev.jpg
 
The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.

If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.
 
Very interesting


I have always thought of ancient / classical Greeks as similar to the Sardinian people with a little more steppe ancestry. The relative proximity between modern Peloponnese and modern Sicily may indicate a more 'central' or 'southeast' Mediterranean position for ancient Greeks, but I am not sure to say. But certainly the ancient Greeks are more towards what is now southern Europe than north. I would like the study to also include comparison with more populations in Italy - especially Sardinia - such as the southern Balkans


Despite the Slavic influences and the eastern Mediterranean - which existed, but was moderate - modern Greeks probably remain close to the ancient Greeks and preserve the language - which naturally changes with time
 
Angela said:
The focus of this paper was the population genetic history of the people of the Peloponnese and larger Greece before the changes which occurred in the early part of the 20th century. That's why, as I've already pointed out three times, they tested people in their 70s who also had all four grandparents from that area.

If someone wants to do a test of all of Greece just going by residence or something, they're free to do that.
Click to expand...

Angela what Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer In 1836 saw in Peloponnese was people speaking Albanian....now how this study proves continuity....what is the evidence that should convince us. In 23 and me I get Peloponnese as highly likely match showing strong connection ....and many Albanian get that.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1836_Fallmerayer/index.html

Half trues are no trues....

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Last edited:
OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.
 
Angela said:
OMG. He wasn't a scientist; he said they'd been degraded by huge numbers of Slavs, maybe Albanians too? How could people who are so close to modern Sicilians have been massively impacted by Slavs, or Albanians for that matter.

I KNOW there were enclaves of Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese in the 19th century. These scientists knew it too. They didn't test people from those enclaves.

There are Albanian enclaves all over southern Italy. No one would test them in trying to find out the population history of Southern Italy. Plus, groups of that size are not going to change the genomics of the host population in any significant way. If there is any change, it's going to go in the opposite direction. That's the case in Italy.

You either understand this or you don't. You clearly don't. You've also repeated this point at least a dozen times. WE KNOW.

I, at least, don't see how it changes the conclusions of the paper. DONE.
Click to expand...

Maybe Albanians Too?!!!!
Yes Angela, you are right I don’t understand,
I do not get anything from the Sicily or Calabria in 23 and Me, even that emigration was more recent compared to Peloponnese.

So why many Albanians get that due to certain enclaves....? In that case they should get the same thing from Sicily and Calabria right?


Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer traveller, journalist, politician and historian for Albanians he described what he saw.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Why would an Albanian in Albania get matches to Sicilians? Albanians in gedmatch get Tuscan matches too, and I can get Albanians, which makes sense because on PCAs Albanians look like eastern and slightly more southern Tuscans.

The only Albanians who would look slightly or a lot "Sicilian" like, depending on the amount of admixture with natives, would be ALBANIAN ITALIANS, i.e. Italians of Albanian ancestry. It has nothing to do with any other Albanian group.

I told you I KNOW there were Albanian speakers in the Peloponnese. It doesn't matter for the purposes of this study because their descendants weren't tested. Testing people in their 70s and looking at their four grandparents from the same part of the Peloponnese would tell you things like that.

As for the mass of the modern population of the Peloponnese, sure, some Albanian admixture is possible. It's NOT going to change their genomes drastically. If anything, it may make them a little less Mycenaean like.

Look, we're all quarantined to one extent or another. Use the time to read some texts on population genetics and then re-examine all these things. You're not going to understand it until you do.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top