You "invent" "I2a-Slavic" marker for I-CTS10228?
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I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians
- Thread starter Maciamo
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You "invent" "I2a-Slavic" marker for I-CTS10228?
I'm going by what the evidence and actual researchers in this field say, and not some Eupedia spammers posting misleading information like here and here.
Among others, the admin of Serbian DNA Project states this:
"The Serbs are predominantly descendants of the Slavs. Y-haplogroups which are genetically of Slavic signature are I2a-CTS10228 (also knows as I2a-Dinaric), R1a-Z280, and R1a-M458, which all together make up over half of Serbian paternal lineages."
Source: http://dnk.poreklo.rs/genetska-slika-lepenskog-vira-vince/
Have a nice day!
Azzurro
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Trojet, I never understood all this Albanian hate (it must be an agenda thing), there is clear evidence that Albanians are the direct descendants of Illyrians even linguistically speaking Albanian is language Isolate and the main HG's E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 are all Balkan in origin, I wonder do people think this a magical arrangement? The obvious answer is Albanians are descendants of Illyrians and the Albanian language was one of various Illyrian languages spoken, there was even an Illyrian tribe called Albani who happened to live in Albania along with the Taulantii, the evidence is clear, Albanians are very likely a mixture of these two Illyrian tribes.
@Trojet
This is not offense and with good intention, whole Internet will make jokes with you.
I say this kindly, with good intentions, all the knowledge points out that the I-CTS10228 did not originate among the Slavs and it cannot be "I2a-Slav" as you "invented".
It is always best to call the haplogroup in its right name, in this case: I-CTS10228.
This is not offense and with good intention, whole Internet will make jokes with you.
I say this kindly, with good intentions, all the knowledge points out that the I-CTS10228 did not originate among the Slavs and it cannot be "I2a-Slav" as you "invented".
It is always best to call the haplogroup in its right name, in this case: I-CTS10228.
Sile
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there is no liguistic proof, there is no archeological proof, the DNA does not match...........to claim an ancient race based on less than 10% of these peoples and lands is the same as saying all Gallic people are italians because Italians have some gallic markers
the Albani was first announced in 150AD ...........that is 1000 years later than when the illyrian are first noted in east Austria ( noricum )
Bergin
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Sile, the topic is I2a-din!
Your opinion about Albanians is not of any relevance here.
@Trojet
Just because someone makes 100 mistakes, it does not justify to make even 1 mistake.
Far by an inch, far by a mile!
I2a-din is probably called as such because in most of the actual measures (modern populations) it highlights a geographic connotation.
I2a-Slav was a mistake, just accept it. We all make mistakes.
Please don't put emotions above critical thinking!
mobileacc200
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So what are you guys debating here? Even birds on trees know that I2-cts10228 is Slavic marker and it was brought by Slavs on Balkan. Evidence is overwhelming..
mobileacc200
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Double post
I never denied the Getic (Slavic) origin of I2a din.This without fuss will explain you why Romanians,Moldavians and many Vlachs are the same geneticaly especialy with their South-Slavic neighbors despite speaking different languages.They descent from this and alike tribes.Whether one is pleased by it or not,the chronicles say old name of Sclavenes is Getae.The more north Slavs have more Wendish ancestry therefore more R1a,this admixture and kin has much longer history.
Bergin
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Sorry Milan, but I really am so angry at this entire thread.
If history would say that Getae is Slavic(if so), then great. But what does it have to do with genetics?
If you don't know the Y-Dna of Getae (and we don't), then you have zero right to connect it with anything (scientifically speaking).
So do you know the Y-DNA of Getae?
Science is not an opinion.
I have their contemporaries Bergin saying this,so far I trust them much more than any modern interpretations,imaginations and wishful thinking disscused here.Everyone here has zero right to connect it with different peoples according to you then, but they does.
Bergin
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Milan, I apologize if I sounded rude. Clearly everyone has right to opinions. Honestly, I am not trained neither in history nor genetics.
It is just that with this thread it is getting harder by the second to learn something solid - but the topic is so interesting.
I don't have any monopoly on rights to connect, that was a lapsus.
What I was tying to say was that:
if we want to rely purely on History, then fine, but is going to be based on ancient scripts and should already be stated in modern history books.
If we want to rely purely on Genetics, then we need Y-DNA matches in reasonable numbers (at least more than 1).
Well Bergin you are right but for example there is couple hypothesis about Slavic homeland alone,the most accepted one back in the days was Western Ukraine,that is the mainstream thesis too.However there is respected scholars with much different views, and many recently.The same is true about IE thesis most accepted is Kurgan but there is other theories.Edit; better to cut this short and not going in another topic.
In territorial relations Nordtvedt determined emergence of I2a Din along Vistula river (today's Poland). In time relations Nordtvedt determined TMRCA for I2a Din, similar result achieved Klyosov. YFull team uses this result. Yes using some another methods TMRCA can be some older but not so much. People who thought that TMRCA for I2a Din is much bigger were disappointed. But what is more important: belief in something what is illusion or rely on facts. In first case science cannot help. Nordtvedt is scientist PhD. Yes he is physicist not genetic genealogist but he is serious researcher. He used scientific methods. Someone can be critical and it is desirable, but it does not make benefits to say that Nordtvedt is charlatan.
Not sure where you're going with this.
If you'd like to understand Genetics better, I suggest you stop paying attention to fairy tales from users like Garrick, Sile, etc, and read other respectable forums. The reason why it was named as "Din" was because of the high concentration of it in the Dinaric Alps, before there was a SNP designation for it. Keep in mind that statistically speaking, there are far more carriers of I-CTS10228 (Din) in Eastern and Western Slavic countries than Southern ones. And no, I don't see why it's a "mistake" to call it I2a-Slavic, since we're talking about the specific I2a that's found overwhelmingly in the Slavic countries (East, West, South). There is some who call I2a-M26 as "Sardinian" since it's found overwhelmingly in Sardinia. Obviously, you or anyone else don't have to call it as such.
Similarly, there is younger mutations of Y-haplogroups which are found overwhelmingly in Albanian populations and almost inexistent in others, so such clusters can be called "Albanian".
Not sure what "emotions" you're taking about, either. I honestly have no personal interest in this, besides just pointing out what the facts and evidence are.
@Trojet
You love Serbian site Poreklo.
However they say that for sample I5236 (location Padina, Serbia, 8753-8351 BC) is confirmed only that it is I-P37 and it is neither confirmed it is negative for M-423 nor positive for M-423. You claim that it is negative for M-423 (without quotation the source).
Someone of you is wrong for sample I5236. I can check at one of authors of the paper, and I will do when that question is actual for me, for now other issues are more urgent.
...
And we know that I-P37 (positive for M-423) was in Paleolithic Europe, in the Balkans (no matter it confirmed or sooner or later).
According to Nordtvedt:
...
For this thread it is not important.
Here is important in which population I-CTS10228 emerged, spread and how it came to the Balkans.
You claim I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs and it should be called according your "invention" "I2a-Slav".
You love Serbian site Poreklo.
However they say that for sample I5236 (location Padina, Serbia, 8753-8351 BC) is confirmed only that it is I-P37 and it is neither confirmed it is negative for M-423 nor positive for M-423. You claim that it is negative for M-423 (without quotation the source).
Someone of you is wrong for sample I5236. I can check at one of authors of the paper, and I will do when that question is actual for me, for now other issues are more urgent.
...
And we know that I-P37 (positive for M-423) was in Paleolithic Europe, in the Balkans (no matter it confirmed or sooner or later).
According to Nordtvedt:
...
For this thread it is not important.
Here is important in which population I-CTS10228 emerged, spread and how it came to the Balkans.
You claim I-CTS10228 emerged among Slavs and it should be called according your "invention" "I2a-Slav".
mobileacc200
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For sure, I2a-CTS10228 can be called I2a-Slav because it is so represented among Slavic countries that it cant be anything else. Balkan is not even important there are milions and milions of I2a-Slav from Russia to Moldova, Ukraine, Poland... And they have variations while entire clade is pretty young.
What's wrong with calling it I2a-Slav?
Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
What's wrong with calling it I2a-Slav?
Sent from my Lenovo A7020a40 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
Generally yes, but Scythians still cannot be excluded.
Although people often confuse Scythians and Sarmatians.
And there are disputes, for example if Roxolani were Sarmatians or remote of Scythian peoples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roxolani
Please read my comment about sample I5236 (I-P37) from a month ago in case you missed it, when I said since the authors didn't report M423 or L621, this sample is negative for them: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29041...s-Dacians-Illyrians/page8?p=511700#post511700
For sample I5236 to be the "forefather" of I-CTS10228 as you claimed, he needs to be proven positive not only for M423 but also for some L621 SNPs, as this sample comes from 10500 years ago, and by then I-L621 SNPs would have started developing: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/
No. It is nonsense. Haplogroups have unique names. You can see nomenclature system for Y-DNA haplogroups:
https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_project_help
Different people, populations, nations can have same haplogroup. For example I-CTS10228 can be found among many European nations in different percents. But if someone "invents" new name for haplogroup as "I2a-Slav" it is different story. It means Romanians or Moldavians or Albanians etc. who have "I2a-Slav" haplogroup are identified as Slavs, what is nonsense.
And Trojet is wrong. Because I-CTS10228 was not emerged among Slavs and several hundred years Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians/Dacians, Scythians etc spread this haplogroup without Slavs. Slavic ethnogenesis is very complex and a lot of very different people/populations/tribes contributed.
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