I2a-Din came to the Balkans and Dinaric Alps with the Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

[Nik]

Evidence is very conclusive that CTS10228 was part of the Slavic realm when they started expanding, that much is evident, because there is no other explanation that can make sense of how a Czech, Belarusian, Russian, Pole, Greek, Serbian, Bosnian, Croat, Bulgarian and an Albanian, on most of the sub-branches, can share a common ancestor that lived anywhere from 500 years ago to max 2300 years ago. Where Slavs got it is another matter which shouldn't concern us much to my opinion, and we might never know.

Well I guess we've been arguing the whole time when we're actually of the same opinion. I also believe that CTS10228 reached its current distribution partly or mostly because of the Slavs (either joined them, escaped from them, or were assimilated) and other barbarians that came from NE Europe, but unlike you I'm curious about the origin.

Slavs were not all blond blue/green eyed, and neither were all the Balkan folk charcoal brown - you can't simplify things to that extent. Serbs and other Balkan Slavs have other influence that they have absorbed, not just Vlahs and Albanians, but also Avars, Huns, Bulgars etc. All depends on the region, same thing with Albanians; rural isolated areas tend to be more homogeneous phenotype wise.

Of course, but we can still talk about population averages. AFAIK there's no unusual yDNA or mtDNA among Herzegovinians and Serbs to justify the darker pigmentation.

About someone who spread fake information is not talked. There is fable about shepherd who twice spread false information that the wolf attacked sheeps. Third time no one paid any attention to him. And the wolf really showed up.

Yeah, I don't think that has really been the case with you. You've spread fake information and got caught several times. I don't know if you did it intentionally or not though.

Back to thread. You really gave some good observations. And in the thread we can see that some people don't see woods from the trees. Therefore delusion in which they fall is deep. You noticed in private life people who know some details but they are weak analysts and misjudge the whole picture. Here in the thread is (inter alia) one very important thing that people overlook but you (intuitively) not. And it is big quality (although without insight what is in question). Congratulations.

Thank you for the kind words.

Somewhere in the thread you wrote people in South Slavic countries have less confidence. No. Confidence is high and very high that it is not good. So high confidence can means big ego. And someone's big ego means selfishness and thinking for himself without taking other people into account, too much selfishness probably is not good for society.

I don't remember saying that and I find it strange. Actually from personal experience I find South Slavs to have a lot of confidence.

 

[Garrick]

You're a typical Serb Garric, throw as much mud on the wall and see what sticks is the usual route Serbs take in these sort of discussions (like they tend to do at poreklo, where you got your bastarnea theory).

No. You didn't follow earlier.

Bastarnae here introduced by Sile, he is Italian.

I think the Bastanae could be one of the sources.............moving from south Ukraine to moesia/macedonia ~300BC ..............100000 with women and children is a major number in those days

I thought about German tribe Scirii what it is not bed. They were close to Bastarnae, even I read later in some book that they mixed with Bastarnae, they could bring I-CTS10228 too. Yet Bastarnae are the main object of our attention.

What is surprise for me a lot of Albanians follow Serbian website Poreklo. It looks Much more than I do.

But Poreklo is not source of Bastarnae theory for I-CTS10228. They saw in the website Anthrogenica where Bastarnae introduced and lead very quality discussions. Maybe someone before Anthrogenica introduced Bastarnae I don't know but really there were very good arguments.

 

[Leka]

Ah yeah of course Sile thought of it, it must hold true then. I would have to apologise to you, Garrik. All makes sense now, silly of me to have not seen it - Bastarnea by 300BC reached ancient Macedonia and then from there veliki Alexander himself is responsible for the rest. Done and done, we should close this thread now!

 

[LABERIA]

I have a work colleague, an Albanian heritage , who says ( was told by his gfather ) albanians originate as part the Bastanae ( mixed people ) and where part of the 80000 contingent that went from the south Carpathians mountain area to Macedonia to help Philip of Macedon defeat the advancing illyrians from the north .......I think it was about 350BC

I doubt that..........but the bastanae ....where a bastard people of different races

This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.

 

[Sile]

This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.

ROFL, you seem to be in panic mode

Are you saying the bastarnae never existed ?

Are you saying the ancient historians fabricated these people?


or maybe , I should not listen to my scholared albanian friend from Resena macedonia and state that everything which is outside of the borders of albania is a lie like you seem to do!

 

[Garrick]

@Leka @Laberia
It's not helping.
In the meantime, much has been learned.
Knowledge is power.

 

[Azzurro]

I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

 

[Leka]

This is how Bastarnae was introduced in this forum. Unbelievable.

I see, thanks Laberia. So after all we are not the Bastarnea as he postulated back then, the bastard people as he puts it, but Slavs are. Really nice, me like so far where this is going.

 

[Azzurro]

I see, thanks Laberia. So after all we are not the Bastarnea as he postulated back then, the bastard people as he puts it, but Slavs are. Really nice, me like so far where this is going.

How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.

 

[Garrick]

I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

Azzuro

And I thought something similar but after intensive reading of matter I changed opinion.

Because for I-CTS10228 is key Zarubintsy culture. Pan Slavist scientists did all to prove that Zarubintsy was Slavic.

But no. Scientific papers of Ukrainian scientists showed that Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian and what is important too that Bastarnae was German tribe.

Nothing Scythian although it is possible that Bastarnae also had Celtic elements.

What is logic German/Celtic because they were first along river of Vistula. It is too west for Scythian, Sarmatian, Slavic and Thracian in that time (300 BC).

Now much is known in science, and scientists are certainly working to identify Bastarnae YDNA.

What is not so easy because Bastarnae burned bodies till 900 degree Celsius.

But sooner or later it will be determined.

 

[Milan.M]

Garick enough with that Bastarnae,you said it and done.There was no Zarubintsy culture DNA,no Proto-Slavic,no Getic/Thracian and no Bastarnian DNA yet.Your "theory" is nothing more than theories said by others here.Everyone believe what he likes at the end of the day,you said it already many times.Also Nordvedt connected I2a din with the Slavs from Poland, a typical charlatan and hobbyst i am saying that from day one, and I was right there was no Slavs in iron age Poland according to DNA.So enough with his "theories" too.

 

[Azzurro]

Azzuro

And I thought something similar but after intensive reading of matter I changed opinion.

Because for I-CTS10228 is key Zarubintsy culture. Pan Slavist scientists did all to prove that Zarubintsy was Slavic.

But no. Scientific papers of Ukrainian scientists showed that Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian and what is important too that Bastarnae was German tribe.

Nothing Scythian although it is possible that Bastarnae also had Celtic elements.

What is logic German/Celtic because they were first along river of Vistula. It is too west for Scythian, Sarmatian, Slavic and Thracian in that time (300 BC).

Now much is known in science, and scientists are certainly working to identify Bastarnae YDNA.

What is not so easy because Bastarnae burned bodies till 900 degree Celsius.

But sooner or later it will be determined.

Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.

 

[Sile]

I personally do not believe that I-CTS10228 was from this Germanic Bastarnae tribe, we have seen some ancient Germanic dna and there is no hints that I-CTS10228 was among them. I have an alternative theory on this origin of I-CTS10228, as I-CTS10228 itself was not slavic but its downstreams were very likely amongst proto-Slavs and became Slavic. I think I-CTS10228 was in fact originally a Scythian line, as the Scythians are one of the groups that form the Slavs. The following downstreams of I-CTS10228 are Slavic I-Z17855, I-S8201, and I-S17250 which is a huge line.

Are not the scythian too late in time for your scenario............maybe you mean sarmatians

 

[Sile]

How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.

The ancient DNA of the 2 do not match..................the bulk of illyrians have a northern/danubian/central european group of haplotypes, while Albanians and greeks have more anatolian/east med. haplotype ...............your connection is fickle

 

[Garrick]

Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.

Azzuro

Even there are opinions that Bastarnae partly was Scythian.

But I think it has explanation.

Bastarnae arrived too south and east that they mixed with Thracians and Sarmatians. And it is possible with Scythians too, they were close.

What I see as main problem is psychological for Bastarnae theory which has very good foundations with regard evidence Zarubintsy culture was mostly Bastarnaian.

For a lot of Slavs is hard accepted fact that big part of Slavs is origin German. It is much easier that they are Thracians, Scythians, Celts etc.

But it is only psychological, paths of haplogroups don't follow pan-national rules and borders.

Bastarnae mixed with Thracians and Sarmatians and maybe Scythians, too. They arrived too east and south from Vistula homeland.

Therefore it is not simply to say German, because it is long process mixed a lot of different groups (Germans, Celts, Sarmatians, Thracians, Scythians etc.) in very complex Slavic ethnogenesis.

Kiev culture is first culture for which someone can say it is Slavic, and Bastarnaian Zarubintsy culture was one of foundations to the Kiev culture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_culture

 

[Milan.M]

Garrick,

You should re-evaluate the Scythian connection, I'll give you a very good example, let's look at the I-A2512 branch which is belongs mostly to Greeks and Ashkenazim, this line forms around 2100 ybp, now it can't be the Bastarnae because they never settled in Greece, but there was Scythians in Greece which makes the Scythian connection more plausible in this case.

I'll tell you the "Scythian" connection,that is the Getic/Thracian connection.
First appearing in the 6th century bc, the Getae were subjected to Scythian influence and were known as expert mounted archers.
I believe that was one of major lineages among them,i am however not excluding that this haplogroup was present among others.

Scythian simply mean an archer most probably and this name was applied to nomads,the Getae too were called Scythians because had more nomadic lifestyle than other Thracians.
Thracians spread it in Greece,especialy north Greece and others parts were settled by Thracians.

Old name of the Sclavenes is this one,it is very easy to grasp if one read ancient authors.

That's my theory YAY!!

 

[LABERIA]

How can anyone think the Albanians are the descendants of the Bastarnae? There is no link between Albanians and Germanic peoples, Shqiptaret are the descendants of Illyrians.

Excuse me, you don`t read it? It was told to Sile by a work colleague, etc, etc, etc.

 

[zanipolo]

I'll tell you the "Scythian" connection,that is the Getic/Thracian connection.
First appearing in the 6th century bc, the Getae were subjected to Scythian influence and were known as expert mounted archers.
I believe that was one of major lineages among them,i am however not excluding that this haplogroup was present among others.

Scythian simply mean an archer most probably and this name was applied to nomads,the Getae too were called Scythians because had more nomadic lifestyle than other Thracians.
Thracians spread it in Greece,especialy north Greece and others parts were settled by Thracians.

Old name of the Sclavenes is this one,it is very easy to grasp if one read ancient authors.

That's my theory YAY!!

some people say scythians and sarmatians are the same people and some say they are not, which is true?

 

[Milan.M]

some people say scythians and sarmatians are the same people and some say they are not, which is true?

I believe that Scythian was a term for nomads,since it was used for peoples from different origin Getic/Thracians,Bulgarians,Alans,Iranian tribes etc

While Sarmatians was first applied for people living east of Tanais according to Herodotus,sea of Azov which was still part of "Scythia" i guess,however later applied to people along black sea,European Sarmatia bordered Germania,while Asiatic Sarmatia was the Eastern part including Tanais,Cimmerian Bosporus etc,not clear explanation of the name.

I guess the name has it's origin either in their status/occupation,life style or the land they inhabited.

 

[Trojet]

Azzurro, I wouldn't waste my time with Garrick, Sile (aka Vettor from Anthrogenica), and the likes. Clearly, they have been spending the last six years at Eupedia trashing and spamming Albanian threads, or anything related to Albanians for that matter.

I can imagine that even if there was a large Illyrian Y-DNA study that found predominantly E1b-V13, J2b2-L283, R1b-BY611 and PF7562 in their remains (the main HGs among Albanians), they would still deny any connection with Albanians.