Why is homo- and bisexuality on the rise in the West?

[LeBrok]

@Lebrok,

Listing homophobia as one of the great forms of discrimination along with racism and sexism makes little sense for two simple reasons...

1) There are few homosexuals to discriminate.
2) Discrimination of homosexuals is a rare occurrence

oh, you discovered a limit for discrimination? It still exists, right? Or if it is lower than 100 we can proclaim it doesn't exist?
Lets not forget about the rest of the world were homosexuals are still afraid for their lives. How about homosexuals in Saudi Arabia, India or Zambia? Perhaps we shouldn't care either, because they are Muslims or Africans. Just a bunch of foreigners.
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

 

[Fire Haired14]

oh, you discovered a limit for discrimination? It still exists, right? Or if it is lower than 100 we can proclaim it doesn't exist?

I didn't argue homophobia isn't a form of discrimination. I argued homophobia is not a comparable form of discrimination to racism and sexism.

I called you out to confront you about the flaws in the pro-gay movement. Furthermore "homophobes" have been unjustly demonized and anyone today who shows any indication of opposing the pro-gay agenda is shot down. Nothing human do is perfect, if you're objective you can certainly see flaws in the pro-gay movement, and yet I haven't seen public supporters or you admit this.

 

[stevenarmstrong]

[...] just as "pedaphobia"(Fear of pedaphiles) isn't comparable to racism.

Pedaphobia means fear of children. This post makes me think I'm coming down with an acute case of stultophobia.

 

[stevenarmstrong]

@Lebrok,

Listing homophobia as one of the great forms of discrimination along with racism and sexism makes little sense for two simple reasons...

1) There are few homosexuals to discriminate.
2) Discrimination of homosexuals is a rare occurrence.

By that logic, concerns over anti-Jewish sentiments are even less worth mentioning, as there are far fewer Jews throughout the world than homosexuals (especially when you expand that label to include bisexuals and transgendered).

 

[Fire Haired14]

Pedaphobia means fear of children.

Whatever. You know what I mean by "Pedaphobia." I won't waste my time researching Greek to create a new word meaning fear of pedaphiles.

This post makes me think I'm coming down with an acute case of stultophobia.

Knowledge of isolated facts isn't intelligence, lack of knowledge of isolated facts isn't stupidity. My lack of knowledge of the precise meaning of the Greek root words of pedaphila doesn't mean I'm stupid.

Accusing me of stupidity because I don't know isolated facts isn't a real argument it's an ad hominem argument.

By that logic, concerns over anti-Jewish sentiments are even less worth mentioning, as there are far fewer Jews throughout the world than homosexuals (especially when you expand that label to include bisexuals and transgendered).

But Jews are an ethnicity and a religion, Homosexuals are not. Homosexuals can't be discriminated in the same way as Jews can be.

 

[Maleth]

Lets have a survey in Chechnya........no homosexuals in Chechnya............saying that there are gay people in Chechnya is fake news...... :grin:, sorry it should be this:vomitting:

http://www.euronews.com/2017/04/06/chechen-gay-men-go-missing-in-alleged-anti-gay-campaign

 

[srdceleva]

If you think sexuality is cultural, please tell us who taught you how to erect your penis when you were presented with a beautiful woman (assuming you are a straight man)? I don't remember any classes about this, not even books about this. How do we teach penis to get up when the right time comes? If it is a cultural phenomenon than this need to be a learned thing, right?

In my comment I said sex drive is what we all have and is genetic and set in stone. However sexual orientation is something that is not set in stone and is affected by your experiences and is malleable, it's why identical twins can have different t orientations and why many people can be in homosexual relationships at one time in their life and then straight ones later. Some people may feel rejected by the opposite sex and find acceptance and love from same sex community. More exposure to this life style can lead more people into it, it's a natural affect of it.

 

[Maleth]

In my comment I said sex drive is what we all have and is genetic and set in stone. However sexual orientation is something that is not set in stone and is affected by your experiences and is malleable, it's why identical twins can have different t orientations and why many people can be in homosexual relationships at one time in their life and then straight ones later. Some people may feel rejected by the opposite sex and find acceptance and love from same sex community. More exposure to this life style can lead more people into it, it's a natural affect of it.

Any of this ever happened to you? I am homosexual and I can tell you what you are saying is not correct. I know many heteros rejected by opposite sex but still where turned on by opposite sex and had new relationships with opposite sex, the same with those attracted to same sex. Probably anyone would have a very clear idea of where there preferences lay by puberty and this obsessive argument that sexual excitement changes as we please is a total fallacy.

 

[srdceleva]

Interesting difference between Britain and the U.S.

@srdceleva

I totally disagree. The vast majority of gay men I know report knowing they were gay from a very young age.

My own observations bear that out.

That doesn't mean there aren't some people who would now try it who wouldn't have in the past. That would inflate the bi-sexual number.

Of course many homosexuals claim to be born that way, the notion gains them acceptance and forces their lifestyle to be held to a standard like race or sex. It's just completely untrue. I've known many homesxuals in the past and almost all of them had identity issues insecurities with the other sex and all sorts of mental complexes. My best friend at 14 genuinely liked girls. I remember him always talking about this one girl and trying to talk to her. He's now gay. People can claim he was faking at that age but he wasn't there was no need to and I could see he genuinely​ liked girls. I've also met many lesbian girls who after talking to them and getting to know them I could see they liked me. I don't buy into the absurd notion that orientation is set in stone. Actually that goes against almost all serious studies and even in nature where homesxual behavior is found, exclusive homosexuality is essentially non existent. The ancient world also for example had no notion of exclusive homosexuality only of all sexuality. Now in modern times we claim exclusive homosexuality is innate...This is obviously affected by culture.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160627-i-am-gay-but-i-wasnt-born-this-way

I only ever see emotionally charged arguments in favor of homosexuality, never seriously thought out explanations or scientific evidence to back it up.

 

[Maleth]

Of course many homosexuals claim to be born that way, the notion gains them acceptance and forces their lifestyle to be held to a standard like race or sex. It's just completely untrue. I've known many homesxuals in the past and almost all of them had identity issues insecurities with the other sex and all sorts of mental complexes. My best friend at 14 genuinely liked girls. I remember him always talking about this one girl and trying to talk to her. He's now gay. People can claim he was faking at that age but he wasn't there was no need to and I could see he genuinely​ liked girls. I've also met many lesbian girls who after talking to them and getting to know them I could see they liked me. I don't buy into the absurd notion that orientation is set in stone. Actually that goes against almost all serious studies and even in nature where homesxual behavior is found, exclusive homosexuality is essentially non existent. The ancient world also for example had no notion of exclusive homosexuality only of all sexuality. Now in modern times we claim exclusive homosexuality is innate...This is obviously affected by culture.

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160627-i-am-gay-but-i-wasnt-born-this-way

I only ever see emotionally charged arguments in favor of homosexuality, never seriously thought out explanations or scientific evidence to back it up.

Regarding the article I don't think anyone denied that there is such thing as bisexuality. I used to be very skeptical of Bisexuals in my younger days, thinking it was just a transition from living a fake hetero life into the gay one ( although these cases are common too) but through experience I know it is a fact that genuine bisexuals do exist and are comfortable with it.

In my case I have always been homo and I had no reason to be, if it depended on the fake assumption that environment is to blame. I never had experiences to make me feel sexually attracted sexually to the opposite sex, and it wasn't like there was no opportunity. I know scores of people and many other heteros that really did not need to switch for any silly reason. The whole concept is so vague and unrealistic.

where are your seriously thought explanations and scientific evidence.? You claim to be a hetero? so how can you talk on behalf of homosexuals? what would you know about it?

srdceleva, tell us something about you. Do you find switching easy?

 

[srdceleva]

Regarding the article I don't think anyone denied that there is such thing as bisexuality. I used to be very skeptical of Bisexuals in my younger days, thinking it was just a transition from living a fake hetero life into the gay one ( although these cases are common too) but through experience I know it is a fact that genuine bisexuals do exist and are comfortable with it.

In my case I have always been homo and I had no reason to be if it depended on the fake assumption that environment is to blame. I never had experiences to make feel sexually attracted sexually to the opposite sex and I know scores of people and many other heteros that really did not need to switch for any silly reason.

srdceleva, tell us something about you. Do you find switching easy?

I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested. have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.

 

[Maleth]

I am a straight man and seek relationships with the opposite sex. However has every desire I've ever had been completely straight? No of course not nobodies has if they are honest. If people knew of every sexual desire I've had I could be arrested. have I ever acted on those desires? No not at all, does this mean I like women any less? No it doesnt it just means I'm an honest and open person and not afraid to admit that I've had all sorts of sexual desires like everyone on this planet. The notion that orientation is set in stone and people were born this or that was is not scientifically supported and even logically makes no sense. We all can have our sexual desires geared in certain directions based on certain past experiences and influences. This doesn't mean people choose to be gay, what it does mean is people weren't born that way.

I really appreciate your honesty. So isn't it possible that you are a repressed bisexual? Maybe the culture and environment is not letting you be who you are? I cannot perform sexually with a woman and was never inclined too. Until I came out as a homosexual I have told a thousand lies to please my family and friends of the time, also been out with a number of women. But it was all fake. Not a life I recommend to anyone. Luckily I live in a safe environment and do not need to be fake no more. I have spoken to scores of gay people and all have same story. I also have many Hetero friends and when discussing they all say that they are 100% hetero and cannot perform with same sex even if they tried. There are very few exceptions so its not the norm. What more evidence do the deniers need? We had a couple of gays that joined the Evengalical church and said they were 'cured' meaning they are attracted to women. One of them admitted that he is only suppressed, and the other is once again back to gay life.........so these testimonies can easily be theatrical, while they can cause a lot of harm.

 

[stevenarmstrong]

But Jews are an ethnicity and a religion, Homosexuals are not. Homosexuals can't be discriminated in the same way as Jews can be.

Let's set the other silliness aside, and focus on this statement, which does seem to be the crux of your argument.

For many years, homosexuality was classified by psychologists as a disorder. Let's assume psychological disorders can be divided into two broad categories: inherited and acquired. Acquired disorders usually result from some kind of physical, emotional and/or psychological trauma (e.g. PTSD). Let's play devil's advocate and categorize homosexuality as an acquired disorder. Even if that were the case, such people cannot and should not be discriminated against. And for you or anyone to claim that homosexuals are not subject to various forms of discrimination around the world (ranging from teasing in the boys locker room at best to torture and murder at worst), and therefore should not be acknowledged by the greater society, is ignorant (or dishonest) and counterproductive.

 

[srdceleva]

I really appreciate your honesty. So isn't it possible that you are a repressed bisexual? Maybe the culture and environment is not letting you be who you are? I cannot perform sexually with a woman and was never inclined too. Until I came out as a homosexual I have told a thousand lies to please my family and friends of the time, also been out with a number of women. But it was all fake. Not a life I recommend to anyone. Luckily I live in a safe environment and do not need to be fake no more. I have spoken to scores of gay people and all have same story. I also have many Hetero friends and when discussing they all say that they are 100% hetero and cannot perform with same sex even if they tried. There are very few exceptions so its not the norm. What more evidence do the deniers need? We had a couple of gays that joined the Evengalical church and said they were 'cured' meaning they are attracted to women. One of them admitted that he is only suppressed, and the other is once again back to gay life.........so these testimonies can easily be theatrical, while they can cause a lot of harm.

The problems with humans is we try to put everything into a neat little box. I'm not a repressed bi sexual or anything I'm just a 100 percent normal male. Many straight men are insecure and afraid to admit that a lot of their desires aren't always the straight and narrow. It's not the case for any man on this planet. However experiences and mindsets can lead us to take those desires and enhance them. Some men feel emotionally more comfortable with other men and then they get involved sexually with them, the same for women. Not because they were born inheritantly gay but because of other factors. Actually I feel like these boxes do gay people a big injustice, they ostracise them in society. I think the world would be a lot better if people just spoke honestly instead of putting everything into a box

 

[Maleth]

The problems with humans is we try to put everything into a neat little box. I'm not a repressed bi sexual or anything I'm just a 100 percent normal male. Many straight men are insecure and afraid to admit that a lot of their desires aren't always the straight and narrow. It's not the case for any man on this planet. However experiences and mindsets can lead us to take those desires and enhance them. Some men feel emotionally more comfortable with other men and then they get involved sexually with them, the same for women. Not because they were born inheritantly gay but because of other factors. Actually I feel like these boxes do gay people a big injustice, they ostracise them in society. I think the world would be a lot better if people just spoke honestly instead of putting everything into a box

srdceleva there is not one moment I was not honest in what I said, and I do not really care what people think about me. All I can tell you is that I am happy with the friends around me as I can be who I am without having to pretend or please. There were a few times I have felt emotionally more comfortable with a female friend/s in difficult moments, but I never got sexually turned on. Homosexuality has been around since time immemorial and we also now know its very prevalent in the animal kingdom. Some homosexuals (male and female) even show signs pre puberty with their behavior while others are very much less obvious. I think its an obsession to always hear the same argument of the environment vs innate.

 

[Bergin]

The entire concept of homosexuality is not a black or white definition anymore, at least for me.
The major gaps between the genders have are clearly being filled, especially in the west. Just an example: the idea of the smelly strong man and the delicate fragile woman are very obsolete. Nowdays, women are as strong and independent as men, and man are as self caring as women.
So if you look for certain attributes in a person (beyond sexuality) the chances that you will find them inside or outside your gender are getting closer. Same holds for friendships and many other relations.

please don't misinterpret: I am saying that increased gender equality influences homosexuality rates, but that is just one factor!

 

[Maleth]

please don't misinterpret: I am saying that increased gender equality influences homosexuality rates, but that is just one factor!

I don't think that would make a difference to whether one would DECIDE or CHOOSE be a homosexual or not. Being honest is a safe environment will bring about the true figures. Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense. Sexuality (sexual attraction) does not switch as readily or as easily as some people make it out to be. Besides of having my own experiences I have spoken to scores of homosexual and heteros on the subject. Enough to say what I say with confidentiality.

 

[Tomenable]

Assuming a natural origin of sexuality, the number probably doesn't rise or fall much throughout the ages.
I think that more people feel safe to open up about themselves, because of rising acceptance by the society.
That means more visibility, creating a probably false sense that the total number of lgbt people is rising, whereas
it's just a rise of people opening up about themselves. That's the way I see it.

AFAIK, those were anonymous surveys, people didn't have to be afraid about their privacy. So your suggestion that many older people lied when claiming that they are straight, due to being afraid, doesn't make much sense.

Exactly. People in the West don't need to hide their true sexuality anymore.

It doesn't make sense because they never needed to hide it in anonymous surveys like these.

============

By the way:

"Why Does the Search for a Gay Gene Freak Everyone Out?":

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...search_why_does_it_make_people_freak_out.html

"(...) While researching Identically Different, my book on the effect of epigenetics on twins, I interviewed several sets of identical twins where one was gay and one straight (which is more common than both being gay).

All pairs were puzzled by their eventual differences, which often didn’t emerge until well after puberty. In these genetic clones, genes might explain their increased susceptibility but clearly were not enough to be in any way “deterministic.”

Importantly, while genes couldn’t explain the differences, the relatively new mechanism of epigenetics—which can differ between twins—was the probable reason. When I discussed these results last year on the radio, gay rights activists seemed to get even more upset at the idea of epigenetics rather than plain genetics. They were worried that as these changes were theoretically reversible, epigenetic drugs might become a future anti-gay treatment in oppressive societies. (...)"

I know a police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay.

Now he has a "boyfriend". I guess that it could be some epigenetic occurence which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation.

 

[Tomenable]

I am homosexual

Out of curiosity - what is your WeGene "Rainbow Index"?

I wonder how much of WeGene "Rainbow Index" do males who identify as gays score?:

Anthrogenica (works only for males, apparently female sexuality is 100% non-genetic):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-6843.html

One thing that I found interesting in the WeGene report and that does not exist in the 23andme report is the "rainbow index", which basically is supposed to say if you are straight or gay, the spectrum is 1-100. This app is based on following literatures:

1. Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation.Psychol Med. 2015 May;45(7):1379-88
2. A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation.Hum Genet. 2005 Mar;116(4):272-8
3. Linkage between sexual orientation and chromosome Xq28 in males but not in females.Nat Genet. 1995 Nov;11(3):248-56

(...)

where can i see my rainbow index

To quote Kermit the Frog: "Some day, we'll find it, the rainbow connection."

Seriously, it's in Genetic Characteristics (on the right).

is it avialable for girls?

No. In the literatures that you can find on WeGene, the study hasn't found SNPs that are associated with rainbow in females.

http://i.imgur.com/2GwfK4e.png

 

[Bergin]

Hi Maleth (#37),
I was not talking about choosing/deciding to be a homosexual. I was talking about choosing a partner, and the relative weight of gender in that choice. Don't underestimate how pragmatic we are. I do believe in love and magic romance, hetero or homo, but couples break up mainly because of discomfort. More and more people do need : affection, understanding, compassion, solidarity, belonging and sex - more are starting to care less if its origin is homo, hetero or artificial intelligence.

Again this is just an idea, and might very well be wrong.
I do agree with you that 'Oppressive and hostile environments will create false data out of fear and self defense.'