• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Why are men of the Dinaric Highlands so tall?

That’s not an easy question because of:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghegs

Ghegs [Albanians] mostly have E-V13, R1b and J2 haplogroups. Croats from Herzegovina have I2a and R1a. That is totally opposite. They are also different autosomally. There must be something else that caused the development of a “Dinaric” type. Maybe a milk consumption has something to do with it.
http://www.listal.com/viewimage/10087390
Albanians are different to Croatians and Serbians they're all from the Balkans but genetically they're slightly more Mediterranean
 
But no Albanians are not different on a autosomal level I witnessed this the other day when a half Albanian half Hungarian uploaded his results he matched up with Romania first and Serbia second according to his GED match results, but again he was Dinaric
 
That exists in Iberia and Rome, true. But as I say I think it's to do with mountainous regions for the Balkans it would be quite monolithic there.

mountainous regions? Balkans? the mountainous aspect could play here, but only in the aspect of partial isolation, not as a direct factor: in other regions of the world, it's exactly the opposite: smallest people in mountainous regions! Balkans more specifically? But in Balkans some regions have smallest populations too (South Albanians shorter than North Albanians, a lot of Bulgarians shorter than more southern Greeks and so on...in mountainous Switzerland, we have big nough variations too according to regions;
Some mesologists affirmed not without reason that the oligoelements contained in grounds can affect stature through plants growing, but even this cannot explain the variations in themselves. So: genetics (mutations, mixtures, selections, hazard of isolations)
 
mountainous regions? Balkans? the mountainous aspect could play here, but only in the aspect of partial isolation, not as a direct factor: in other regions of the world, it's exactly the opposite: smallest people in mountainous regions! Balkans more specifically? But in Balkans some regions have smallest populations too (South Albanians shorter than North Albanians, a lot of Bulgarians shorter than more southern Greeks and so on...in mountainous Switzerland, we have big nough variations too according to regions;
Some mesologists affirmed not without reason that the oligoelements contained in grounds can affect stature through plants growing, but even this cannot explain the variations in themselves. So: genetics (mutations, mixtures, selections, hazard of isolations)

No no, I mean mountainous regions in general as to why Dinarics are taller than other Dinarics in South Europe
 
But no Albanians are not different on a autosomal level I witnessed this the other day when a half Albanian half Hungarian uploaded his results he matched up with Romania first and Serbia second according to his GED match results, but again he was Dinaric

today autosomals discriminations are a bit rough, for I think, spite they already learn us a lot -
and it's not because an autosomal sketche is as a whole unchanged that some parts of it concerning phenotypic aspects are not changed: don't forget: phenotype is for a BIG part autosomally formed - and social/cultural selection can act very more easily upon visible parts of individuals than upon unvisible parts - social/cultural > choices > genetics selection: and BTW stature is one of the most evident selected trait, the most easily separated from other genetic traits, even other phenotypical traits,; look at the married people: we see always the most funny "unbalanced" married couple, but as a rule tall people marry within them and small people the same -
maybe some warlike pops could have socially selected tall people? it's very sensitive.
for the 'dinaric' question I don't know if this SUPPOSED selection (int their case) could have taken place, but ATW stature is in them associated to other traits since some time (5000 KY?).
 
That’s not an easy question because of:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghegs

Ghegs [Albanians] mostly have E-V13, R1b and J2 haplogroups. Croats from Herzegovina have I2a and R1a. That is totally opposite. They are also different autosomally. There must be something else that caused the development of a “Dinaric” type. Maybe a milk consumption has something to do with it.

It's not a definite answer to the question, but Croatians of North and Slovenians are very less 'dinaric'like than Central-Southern Dinaric Alps people, stature and other traits included; and the more northern you go, the less tall the ancient Yougoslavians (Croatains, I think, have a stronger Celtic input, Slovenians too, whatever the male Y-haplos. (I wrote laready the links with Y haplos are very loose for evident reasons (exogamy for females))
 
today autosomals discriminations are a bit rough, for I think, spite they already learn us a lot -
and it's not because an autosomal sketche is as a whole unchanged that some parts of it concerning phenotypic aspects are not changed: don't forget: phenotype is for a BIG part autosomally formed - and social/cultural selection can act very more easily upon visible parts of individuals than upon unvisible parts - social/cultural > choices > genetics selection: and BTW stature is one of the most evident selected trait, the most easily separated from other genetic traits, even other phenotypical traits,; look at the married people: we see always the most funny "unbalanced" married couple, but as a rule tall people marry within them and small people the same -
maybe some warlike pops could have socially selected tall people? it's very sensitive.
for the 'dinaric' question I don't know if this SUPPOSED selection (int their case) could have taken place, but ATW stature is in them associated to other traits since some time (5000 KY?).

I wouldn't say a phenotype is a big part I'd say it's a general outline
 
It's not a definite answer to the question, but Croatians of North and Slovenians are very less 'dinaric'like than Central-Southern Dinaric Alps people, stature and other traits included; and the more northern you go, the less tall the ancient Yougoslavians (Croatains, I think, have a stronger Celtic input, Slovenians too, whatever the male Y-haplos. (I wrote laready the links with Y haplos are very loose for evident reasons (exogamy for females))

According to this map North Croatia and Slovenia are also "dinaric":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Deniker's_Races_de_l'Europe_(1899).jpg
 
According to this map North Croatia and Slovenia are also "dinaric":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Deniker's_Races_de_l'Europe_(1899).jpg

Don't rely on the majority of old maps, rubbish for the most
and don't forget they are based upon theoriciezed dominant phenotype but they doesn't take in account the real proportions of statistical dominance of this type. So variations in statures can be linked to variations in %'s...
I but also Coon (and maybe others!) stated that Slovenians were the least 'dinaric' pops of old Yougolavija, and we can put Northern Croatia (and Derbian Vojvodina) close to them for this aspect spite a bit more 'dinaric'like.
 
I wouldn't say a phenotype is a big part I'd say it's a general outline

in France the less low statured regions are (were) not the ones with only more 'nordic' but the ones where 'dinaric' phénotypes were assocated to 'nordic' more than in other regions, mountains or no mountains, and surely NO Balkans!
 
Don't rely on the majority of old maps, rubbish for the most and don't forget they are based upon theoriciezed dominant phenotype but they doesn't take in account the real proportions of statistical dominance of this type. So variations in statures can be linked to variations in %'s... I but also Coon (and maybe others!) stated that Slovenians were the least 'dinaric' pops of old Yougolavija, and we can put Northern Croatia (and Derbian Vojvodina) close to them for this aspect spite a bit more 'dinaric'like.

If you take a look into this map you can see how the division you’ve just depicted fits well with the terrain:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dinarisches_Gebirge_Topo.png

Dinaric mountains are made of limestone. There is lot of calcium in the waters. People who lived in the Dinaric mountains didn’t grow any plants. Their diet consisted mainly of the milk products and meat. Milk is rich with calcium. We know that the calcium is the main material of which the skeleton is built, and an appearance is mainly about a skeleton. Meat gave them lot of proteins, in comparison to the farmers from plains who ate it only on Christmas. Not to mention the war past and the natural selection.
 
Last edited:
I wouldn't say a phenotype is a big part I'd say it's a general outline

I said: phenotype is for a BIG part autosomally formed, and NOT: phenotype forms a big part of autosomes.
 
@Wonomyro
mesologic input exists upon phenotypes, it's well known, but in which proportion? That's the question (a difficult one: soils, corns, meat, milk and so one).
The fact is in other regions of relatively same environment, the districts with more 'dinaric'like pops are taller than the others.
I said what I thought; maybe the today result is the conjonction of mesologic + genetic input (drift, crossings at one time, barriers to gene flow at one other time). To date I cannot say more.
 
by the way, calcium density in nurture does not coincid exactly with its concentration in skeleton: the metabolism capacity of fixation depends on a lot of things, vitamins and Co, and it's not sure a slightly less concentration of it in food push towards shorter skeletons, it depends of the calcium concentration in bones which can vary a bit between pops: sure, the phenotype reacts to more or less of it, but surely not in a straight and simplistic way; a very big lack of calcium could lead to a limitation of skeleton size, but over a certain dosis, more calcium is eliminated by the (healthy) metabolism and does not modifiy bones structures and sizes, even before adolescence - according to genetical heredity the reaction to defect of calcium can lead to shorter or slimmer bones, or to bones of same appearence but with less minerals in them... we can absolutely not eliminate the genetic input in the phenotypicial result; the few serious abstracts I red spoke rather more of change in the bone structure than of change in the bone size. other pops of Europe (the most of West) are not under a lack of calcium and they show very different means one compared to another;
 
Is there a climate and terrain harsher than the Himalayas. Sherpas are as tough as you can get, and they're not tall by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, many mountain people are indeed rather compact in build.

Gavin-and-his-Sherpa-Team-at-Base-Camp---11th-May-2011.jpg

You have some issue with the facts as presented in this post, Zvrk9? Come on, speak up. I'm all agog to hear.
 
I am Croatian, and I have been dealing with this issue for a long time. First, I must say that Croats are 180.5 cm on average, but the average for Croats is broken by northern Croats, where haplogroup R1a predominates. If you were to look only at the region of Dalmatia and Slavonia, the Croats would be the tallest nation in the world, because the concentration of the tallest people in the world is in the area of ​​Dalmatia, and then in Herzegovina in the parts of western Herzegovina where the Croatian population predominates. The city of Makarska in Croatia has an average height of 187 cm. Seen this way, Croats are taller than Montenegrins and Bosniaks.
The reason for this height lies in eating habits with a combination of mountains and a favorable climate. Peoples who are herders, who are engaged in sheep and goat breeding, are usually tall, as an example of this we have the Masai and Nilotic people. These are two noble peoples who have always been engaged in animal husbandry. Animal husbandry has existed for thousands of years in the Western Balkans. Western Dinars have always fed on dairy products, cheese and milk. They also ate fish, so our diet was rich in protein. Another reason is the extreme climate in the Western Dinarides, a combination of very cold and harsh winters, and intense heat with full sun in the summer. Western Dinars are also known for their large feet, the largest in the world, and the reason for this lies in their genetic adaptation to rugged mountains that are very difficult to move. These are all the reasons why the Western Dinars are so tall and rugged. The reason also lies in the hard physical life, the cultivation of the land which is full of karst and stones, the movement and keeping of the cattle on the difficult craggy mountain slopes. The life of the Western Dinars has always been very difficult and physically demanding, which is why the diet had to be rich in proteins. Some say that the reason for such height is also in our famous Dalmatian prosciutto. Prosciutto is rich in proteins.
The ideal combination of diet, Mediterranean climate and mountains are the reason for such a high altitude.
There are also theories that Croats are descendants of Illyrians or indigenous Balkan peoples who were originally descendants of the Nephilim who fled to the Western Balkans from the Greeks. Many Croatian historians and archaeologists talked about the fact that graves of people who were 2.5 to 3 meters high were found in Dalmatia and Herzegovina.


I am not sure that haplogroup I2a1b has a direct relationship with altitude, I think that it is influenced by the Western Dinarids. If any haplogroup came to the Western Dinarides and lived the way of life that is lived here, it would grow in several generations. I'm sure of that. The Slavs who came to the Western Dinarides are taller than all the other Slavs of Eastern Europe. The Western Dinarids influenced the Slavs to grow taller than their neighbors to the east and north.
 
In my mind Dalmatia region is not Croatia "proper". Other natural condition, other %'s of peopling, other statures, other brachecphalic indexes, other pigmentation... at least in previous century beginning.
Not to contest what you wrote, no problem.
 
in France the less low statured regions are (were) not the ones with only more 'nordic' but the ones where 'dinaric' phénotypes were assocated to 'nordic' more than in other regions, mountains or no mountains, and surely NO Balkans!

as you know I'm still interested in the combination of length and the 'dinaric' phenotypes, in the flatets part of the Netherlands, we also see some tall people with that phenotype (I'm one of those), the Bell Beaker of my region were renowned for it.....tall, brachycepaly, flat occiput.
 
I found 2 theories that have been put forward. One is that the Dinaric Alps were historically a land of giants, and that this is simply a continuation of that trend. Another theory posits that the men of the Dinaric Alps are so tall because they have access to nutritious food and clean water. This region is also known for its stable climate, which may play a role in promoting growth. And while there may be some debate about the reasons for this, there is no denying the impressive height of these men.
 
Back
Top