What Are Slavic countries?

[Tomenable]

I see ex yugos and Poles on daily basis and half of their couples are made up of model-tier women and ugloid men.

You are just being jealous of the women! :grin:

Ugloid (and shorter) men live down south... :innocent:

 

[Johannes]

Don't agree.

You have a map here showing where the division line was. As it says, region was feudalised and pacified. My bet is that East Germany is still a Slavic territory.

You believe this because you are a Slav nationalist. The same with Polish nationalists I met in this forum. Yes the Slavs were absorbed to a limited extent but most were killed and expelled. Ethnic cleansing is not just killing: its expulsion, killing, and assimilation of the remaining people.

 

[Johannes]

In Slavic-Balkanic countries the ratio of good looking women and ugly men is astonishing. I see ex yugos and Poles on daily basis and half of their couples are made up of model-tier women and ugloid men.

You are absolutely right. I have visited Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, and Check Republic and most of the men are ugly and fat. The women try very very hard to look good but they dont fool people. Actually most Slav women are plain Janes. They think they are beautiful because they are skinny and try to compare to fat western women. But if you make western women lose weight they will be much more attractive than Slavic women.

 

[Johannes]

You are just being jealous of the women! :grin:

Ugloid (and shorter) men live down south... :innocent:

He was not being jealous. He was right: I have visited your country several times and other Slavic countries and have found that Slavic women are not as attractive as they claim. Sorry.:grin:

 

[Ike]

You believe this because you are a Slav nationalist. The same with Polish nationalists I met in this forum. Yes the Slavs were absorbed to a limited extent but most were killed and expelled. Ethnic cleansing is not just killing: its expulsion, killing, and assimilation of the remaining people.

What would it have to do with Slavic nationalism? If we even assume that Eastern Germany is 100 % still Slavic today, what would be the chances to turn East Germany into Slavic country again?

They were assimilated. Read the last paragraph of that page. I guess that East Germany is still ~30% Slavic today.

 

[Tomenable]

I guess that East Germany is still ~30% Slavic today.

Modern East Germany is pre-WW2 Central Germany, considering that East Germany used to be located to the east of Odra-Nysa (Oder-Neisse) line. Moreover - at least 1/5 of inhabitants of present-day West Germany are actually East Germans who came from the east of Odra-Nysa & from the Sudeten. So modern West Germany is also considerably Slavic (at least a dozen percent).

I wrote about this here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...aak-et-al-2015&p=101334&viewfull=1#post101334

In year 1950, already 16,6% of inhabitants of West Germany were people who, as of 01.09.1939, had lived in areas later lost by Germany in 1945. By year 1961 - due to internal migrations from East Germany to West Germany - percent of such people in West Germany, increased to 21,5% of the total population. So obviously that migration aloned had to cause a significant increase in frequency of R1a in West Germany (add to this also Polish immigration to Ruhrgebiet during the 19th century, as well as so-called "Ostflucht" during the 19th and early 20th centuries, and other migrations in the 19th-21st centuries too):

http://s11.postimg.org/5kxi31kyb/West_Germany.png

http://s16.postimg.org/njbt8y26d/Definition.png

Source:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=ud...IjKuf6tmexwIVgVRyCh180AD-#v=onepage&q&f=false

So about 1/5 of inhabitants of present-day West Germany are actually Eastern Germans.

Therefore we can't claim that Slavic admixture is only in present-day East Germany.

In the 1700s percent of R1a in West Germany was IMO as low as today in France or in the Low Countries - so a few %.

It increased vastly during the 1800s-1900s as the result of migrations from the east to the west.

Massive migration of ethnic Poles to the Ruhr region is also not a mystery. For example in the city of Dortmund in year 1910 as many as 12,2% of inhabitants had Polish as their mother tongue (in Gelsenkirchen - 17,7%; in Recklinghausen county - 15,7%; in the city of Bochum - 9,1% in year 1900). Those were immigrants and their children. Later of course they became Germanised.

Following the collapse of Yugoslavia, many dozens of thousands of Yugoslavs emigrated to West Germany.

Most of Germans that I have discussed with on internet fora say that they have some Slavic ancestors.

 

[Tomenable]

Polish language was spoken all around Wroclaw (Breslau) - in Lower Silesia - as late as the 1800s:

1) From Joseph Partsch: "Schlesien Teil I – Das ganze Land", Breslau 1896, Verlag Ferdinand Hirt, pages 364-367 (this is an excerpt from chapter "die Sprachgrenze 1790 und 1890"):

(Partsch writes that from year 1790 to year 1890 Polish-speaking areas all around the city of Wroclaw/Breslau, to the north, east and south of it, were Germanised, assimilated):

Second page:

2) From Robert Semple: "Observations made on a tour from Hamburg through Berlin, Gorlitz, and Breslau, to Silberberg; and thence to Gottenburg", London 1814, pages 122-123:

(Semple describes Polish-speaking areas extending between the settlement of Leuthen [Lutynia] and the settlement of Gross Gohlau [Gałów], to the west of Wroclaw/Breslau):

 

[LeBrok]

Modern East Germany is pre-WW2 Central Germany, considering that East Germany used to be located to the east of Odra-Nysa (Oder-Neisse) line. Moreover - at least 1/5 of inhabitants of present-day West Germany are actually East Germans who came from the east of Odra-Nysa & from the Sudeten. So modern West Germany is also considerably Slavic (at least a dozen percent).

I wrote about this here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...aak-et-al-2015&p=101334&viewfull=1#post101334



In the 1700s percent of R1a in West Germany was IMO as low as today in France or in the Low Countries - so a few %.

It increased vastly during the 1800s-1900s as the result of migrations from the east to the west.

Massive migration of ethnic Poles to the Ruhr region is also not a mystery. For example in the city of Dortmund in year 1910 as many as 12,2% of inhabitants had Polish as their mother tongue (in Gelsenkirchen - 17,7%; in Recklinghausen county - 15,7%; in the city of Bochum - 9,1% in year 1900). Those were immigrants and their children. Later of course they became Germanised.

Following the collapse of Yugoslavia, many dozens of thousands of Yugoslavs emigrated to West Germany.

Most of Germans that I have discussed with on internet fora say that they have some Slavic ancestors.

What is R1a in Sorbian/Sorbs population?

 

[Tomenable]

^ You mean what subclades of R1a do they have? I will check.

Sorbian language is divided into Lower Sorbian in the north (most similar to Polish) and Upper Sorbian in the south (slightly more similar to Czech than to Polish). Genetically they are more similar to Poles than to Czechs because they are separated by a geographical barrier from Czechs. The Sudety-Karpaty mountain range separates Sorbs and Polish groups from Czecho-Slovak groups (see the map below). The Pripyat Marshes separate Ukrainian dialects from Belarusian dialects when we go from the north to the south. They also separate Polish from East Slavic dialects when we go from the west to the east. And traditional inhabitants of the marshes itself - so called Poleshuks - were a "transitional" group, which kind of escaped ethnic classifications as either Ukrainian/Belarusian/Polish. Of course geography is not the only factor at play here, but one of the most important ones.

This map shows the situation in Poland - in the south you have mountain ranges, in the central-east so-called Pripyat Marshes. In the north geographical barriers - postglacial landscapes, full of hills and lakes - also exist, but are less pronounced than in the south (Slavic Kashubian/Pomeranian dialects have been so close to Polish that linguists are debating whether to consider them as Polish or part of another, but closely related, language). In North-East Germany that postglacial landscape marked the border between Polabian and Sorbian languages. It can be noted that Lower Sorbian is the second most closely related language to Polish, after Kashubian (if we consider it a separate language, rather than a dialect of Polish).

Let's add, that until the 18th century Sorbs were not a genetic isolate - at that time they were not an enclave surrounded from all side by German-speakers, but were connected by a strip of Slavic-speaking countryside with Polish-speaking mainland (the transitional group between Sorbian-speakers and Polish-speakers were so called "Oder-Wenden", who spoke transitional Polish-Sorbian dialects - while to the east of Oder-Wenden there lived Polacy Lubuscy = Lubusz/Lebus Poles. So in 1700 you could still ride all the way from Cottbus to Moscow, without leaving Slavic areas.

The map:

Dense checker marks mountainous landscape, sparse checker shows postglacial landscapes (with hills and lakes, those areas were relatively sparsely inhabited). Pripyat Marshes to the east of Poland and Brześć, in the Ukrainian-Belarusian borderland can also be seen:

 

[LeBrok]

^ You mean what subclades of R1a do they have? I will check.

Yes, and overall R1a versus other clades. Perhaps they are the least mixed of Slavs with locals. This might give us understanding about original Slavs, even if only Western Slavs, at the time of expansion. I've seen some numbers long time ago and R1a was extremely high. I wonder if these numbers were confirmed with new tests.

 

[Johannes]

What would it have to do with Slavic nationalism? If we even assume that Eastern Germany is 100 % still Slavic today, what would be the chances to turn East Germany into Slavic country again?

They were assimilated. Read the last paragraph of that page. I guess that East Germany is still ~30% Slavic today.

Well we will never know how many were killed/assimilated but given that warfare during the Middle Ages was very gruesome and the loser was pretty much left with nothing or with the worst lands, it would seem that the Slavic DNA would have been low. According to my debate with Tomenable I came to 10-20% Slavic DNA in Eastern Germany. But then if you take R1a (even I2) into account, a lot of it was not "Slavic" but IE. Slavs evolved much later and some R1a and I2 was scattered throughout Western Europe before "Slavs' came into existance.

 

[Johannes]

Modern East Germany is pre-WW2 Central Germany, considering that East Germany used to be located to the east of Odra-Nysa (Oder-Neisse) line. Moreover - at least 1/5 of inhabitants of present-day West Germany are actually East Germans who came from the east of Odra-Nysa & from the Sudeten. So modern West Germany is also considerably Slavic (at least a dozen percent).

I wrote about this here:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...aak-et-al-2015&p=101334&viewfull=1#post101334



In the 1700s percent of R1a in West Germany was IMO as low as today in France or in the Low Countries - so a few %.

It increased vastly during the 1800s-1900s as the result of migrations from the east to the west.

Massive migration of ethnic Poles to the Ruhr region is also not a mystery. For example in the city of Dortmund in year 1910 as many as 12,2% of inhabitants had Polish as their mother tongue (in Gelsenkirchen - 17,7%; in Recklinghausen county - 15,7%; in the city of Bochum - 9,1% in year 1900). Those were immigrants and their children. Later of course they became Germanised.

Following the collapse of Yugoslavia, many dozens of thousands of Yugoslavs emigrated to West Germany.

Most of Germans that I have discussed with on internet fora say that they have some Slavic ancestors.

You believe that 12% or even 15% Slav DNA is considerable?

 

[Tomenable]

But then if you take R1a (even I2) into account, a lot of it was not "Slavic" but IE.

That's rubbish. Indo-European language was brought to Western Europe by R1b carriers, not by R1a carriers.

Only 1,5% - 1,8% of Germans have Non-Slavic subclades of R1a, the rest of their R1a is typically Balto-Slavic.

Slavs evolved much later (...) before "Slavs" came into existance.

They evolved at the same time as other IE groups, but they came into contact with literate people later.

Greeks and Romans were those literate people - if they didn't know that you existed, they didn't write about you.

All of what we know about Ancient Celtic or Ancient Germanic history comes from Greco-Roman historical texts.

Chronological sequence of "entering history" is related to how close to the Mediterranean Sea a given group lived.

 

[Tomenable]

If you take a look at this tree then Slavo-Baltic branches of R1a are M458 and Z280:

By contrast Western European branches are L644 and Scandinavian-specific Z284:

http://postimg.org/image/64ht3d3tr/

Age estimates are from YFull, and they may be 10% - 20% too young in each case.

 

[Johannes]

What would it have to do with Slavic nationalism? If we even assume that Eastern Germany is 100 % still Slavic today, what would be the chances to turn East Germany into Slavic country again?

They were assimilated. Read the last paragraph of that page. I guess that East Germany is still ~30% Slavic today.

You just answered my question: meaning that you are a Slav nationalist and would prefer to believe that East Germans are Slavs converted to Germans. It's obvious that with your assertion that even if 30% of East Germans were Slavic it would make all East Germans Slavic!! The answer to all this is: East Germans are Germans. Period.

 

[Johannes]

If you take a look at this tree then Slavo-Baltic branches of R1a are M458 and Z280:

By contrast Western European branches are L644 and Scandinavian-specific Z284:

http://postimg.org/image/64ht3d3tr/

Age estimates are from YFull, and they may be 10% - 20% too young in each case.

Ok there is a connection between Germanic R1a and Slavic R1a. So what is the big deal??? I knew Germans and Slavs had similar DNA -- but it was small, especially with R1a. I told you many times there were mixtures between Slavs and Germans but it does not make Eastern Germans or Swedes into Slavs. Every one is mixed but to a limited extent.

 

[Ike]

You just answered my question: meaning that you are a Slav nationalist and would prefer to believe that East Germans are Slavs converted to Germans. It's obvious that with your assertion that even if 30% of East Germans were Slavic it would make all East Germans Slavic!! The answer to all this is: East Germans are Germans. Period.

No dude, they are not. Around 1/3 are Slavic, and at least 1/3 is good part Slavic. It was a Slavic estate 1000 years ago, and they were assimilated.

 

[Johannes]

No dude, they are not. Around 1/3 are Slavic, and at least 1/3 is good part Slavic. It was a Slavic estate 1000 years ago, and they were assimilated.

So according to you and the other Pole the Slavs were all easily assimilated and everything was all pizzas and cup cakes after that?

I have visited Eastern Germany several times and all eastern Slav countries and I saw that most Germans did not look like Slavs. So if you want to use your imagination, its not going to work.:bored:

Besides we already found out that 10-20% of Eastern Germans R1a does not mean its all Slavic marker! (Tomenble)

Look: lets be honest: Most Eastern Germans do not look like Slavs. OK?

 

[Piro Ilir]

No dude, they are not. Around 1/3 are Slavic, and at least 1/3 is good part Slavic. It was a Slavic estate 1000 years ago, and they were assimilated.

The Germanic tribes migrated further south during the years 400-500 . Those tribes settled throughout the Roman empire. They left back a rare populated area especially the east Germany. The Slavic tribes profited and settled there. But after a while the germanics came back and resettled there. So what's the big deal? Slavs have many non originally Slavic DNA. People mix. So what. Serbs are not Slavs. They were Slavs before 1000 at least. Today they are just Serbs. That's all. Slavs came from the steppes, but modern Serbs are a product of the Balkans. It is a process of evolution. Saying that Serbs are Slavs is ridiculous. They just evolved from them

 

[Piro Ilir]

A Serb has more in common with an ethnic Albanian today rather than he has with a Russian and with an Ukrainian.