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Immigration Turkish girl Buried Alive for talking to boys

Marianne

Marianne

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Turkish police have recovered the body of a 16-year-old girl they say was buried alive by relatives in an "honour" killing carried out as punishment for talking to boys.
The girl, who has been identified only by the initials MM, was found in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre hole dug under a chicken pen outside her home in Kahta, in the south-eastern province of Adiyaman.
Police made the discovery in December after a tip-off from an informant, the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported on its website.
The girl had previously been reported missing.
The informant told the police she had been killed following a family "council" meeting.
Her father and grandfather are said to have been arrested and held in custody pending trial. It is unclear whether they have been charged. The girl's mother was arrested but was later released.
Media reports said the father had told relatives he was unhappy that his daughter – one of nine children – had male friends. The grandfather is said to have beaten her for having relations with the opposite sex.
A postmortem examination revealed large amounts of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she had been alive and conscious while being buried. Her body showed no signs of bruising.
The discovery will reopen the emotive debate in Turkey about "honour" killings, which are particularly prevalent in the impoverished south-east.
Official figures have indicated that more than 200 such killings take place each year, accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/04/girl-buried-alive-turkey

It makes me sick just thinking about it.

I don't want such people with this way of thinking in Europe. Period!
I don't understand how people can't associate this with Islamic beliefs and try to convince others that Islamisation of Europe is a good thing.

I cannot believe that there are Europeans who would tolerate such behavior in their own countries and really support immigration of people that approve treating women like that! Don't these people have sisters and mothers?

No matter how the laws change in Turkey, there will still be people doing such things because they were raised like that and their religion tolerates it and sometimes approves it...

These people do not think like Europeans, therefore they do not deserve a place in Europe.

PS I'm sorry if my words are a bit bold but I just read the news and I'm really frustrated
 
For me, the bottom line is that a good deal of Muslim behavior is akin to barbarism. Islam's treatment of women is appalling.
 
I think that Turkey would already be in the EU if it weren't for Islam. Although the educated classes are usually close to Europeans, many lower class people behave well, as you can see... like religious fanatics.
 
This is a very interesting video lynx.

I always have to debate people who think that wearing scarf is what Muslim women really want for themselves.
I believe that they only want it because they were raised like that since they were kids. Most of them don't realize how suppressing it is because they live in Muslim countries so they don't see a different way of living. Even if they don't want to wear it, their community is so strict that they have to do it else they will have a tragic death like the one that made the news...

This girl in the video proves that most Muslim women are brainwashed into wearing such clothes and behaving like they do...

As Maciamo said those who are educated (those who live in western Turkey in most of the cases) might behave like Europeans.
The problem is that in a country of 80million with Islamic beliefs they are the minority...
 
Marianne said:
This is a very interesting video lynx.

I always have to debate people who think that wearing scarf is what Muslim women really want for themselves.
I believe that they only want it because they were raised like that since they were kids. Most of them don't realize how suppressing it is because they live in Muslim countries so they don't see a different way of living. Even if they don't want to wear it, their community is so strict that they have to do it else they will have a tragic death like the one that made the news...

This girl in the video proves that most Muslim women are brainwashed into wearing such clothes and behaving like they do...

As Maciamo said those who are educated (those who live in western Turkey in most of the cases) might behave like Europeans.
The problem is that in a country of 80million with Islamic beliefs they are the minority...
Click to expand...

It's all about power and control. Religion is a potent brainwashing weapon when used strategically.
 
Female head dress is a tradition of patriarchal societies (same in Europe and Middle East). In past in Europe all married women had to cover their heads as a symbol of not being available (already married). In patriarchal societies it meant the she belongs to a man, she is his possession. Only virgins could walk around with naked head. In Polish villages there is still a tradition of covering heads by women when going to church.
Look at catholic nuns, that's how it's used to be, tiny bit short of burka.
This tradition is still strong in isolated colonies of Hutterites, here in Canada. Men control communities, schools and all outside information. Women are raised only hearing their men's truth, and they strongly believe it's the only proper and right. Other ways are immoral and sinful. That's why I'm again segregated and independent schooling systems in democratic countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterite

Now days women in Europe are free, independent, can vote and posses real estate, and this old tradition went away. It started when capitalism and public education, on big scale, created jobs for women outside their household. They started making money, become educated, independent and demanded equal rights. As long as men controlled money and inheritance, women couldn't do anything about their dependency.

In Muslim nations this tradition is still live and kicking. Women belong to men, their tradition is strongly patriarchal. In many cases it even went farther than head covering, it's not only a symbol of man's possession but his property is completely covered from head to feet with burka. An excellent protection against other man's lust, or even better don't let women leave men's houses, at least not too often and alone.
People trying to make sense of it as religious, tradition or morality issue, and surely these things have an impact, mostly helping men to control women. The only logical explanation though, lies in patriarchal ruts with man's property protection context. The most frightening thing is that most of Muslim women believe that this is their choice to wear them.
Hijab or burka marks woman as man's possession. That's all it is.
 
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i have too much to say here. i am not the lawyer of turkey. especially, these days when the islamic party rises and cultural life getting worse. if anybody would ask me to select a country before i was born turkey would not be one of my choise nither other islamic countries FOR THIS TIMELINE.

however, i believe that religion was invented by the people as an instrument to control community or the social groups when there was no nationalism on earth. it was such a nice idea that worked for thousands of years. you cannot quit easily such a power, when you have it in your hand. the problem is religion get stronger with uneducated people when you aim invasion of other lands by controlling people (in almost all the religions the easiest way to reach the heaven is dying in the war).

the rulers in europe also used this power for this purposes in the past (see the Crusaders) especially to control all of the europe (see cult or denomination fights). even now this fight goes on in europe with much lower levels. the Inquisition was the
whip of the power.

religion power lost ground in europe when nationalism rised, and the second attack came from industrial revolution which brought indiviualism. people started to want their own life and didnt want most of the boring limitations of religion. additionally, with the growing knowledge people started to see the incoherence in this doctrine.

church guys started to spend all of their time for the new patches for their beloved machine. as a result, in these day, christianism is not as sama as 500 years ago.

In islamic side, on the other hand nationalism came 100 years later. this 100 years caused the miss of industrial revolution. and as a result with the low level of education religion is still one of the most powerfull gun e.g. in turkey. nowaday we have 3 different parts in turkey: in the coasts education level is high people are rich and islam is weaker: in th central anatolia education level is lower and nationalism is strong in addition to islam: in the east side where half of the people are kurdish islam and kurdish nationalism are very strong.

what i am trying to say islam is not the reason for underdevelopment of islamic countries. the reason is using this power excessive, wrong and cannot adopting it to the age. e.g greek religion was so fragile that they could not resist to mesopotamian religions which caused them to disappear from the history of power.

if we come back to this news about this burried girl. it is the problem of education not religion. you can see this kind of diversities more in islamic countries because education level is lower.

but, still coming with such a news and saying "we dont want these kind of people in europe", something i can wait only from greek people. i believe they must stop hating turkey for their "promised land" and concentrate on their economy. they didnt make any other addition to the cultural life of europe since 500 BC (and dont blame turkey for this, because it is not ottomans problem if you are weak).

considerable amount of people (not minority) like me in turkey fights against these islamic powers, it will be very bright victory for the mankind and a good example for the other islamic countries if we can win it. europe can help us in this war or not it is their choice.
 
I don't know about whole Turkey, but you can join my Europe evern though you're barbarian :good_job:. Saying this from exile in Canada, lol.
My perfect world would be if people could live in countries with same thinking people, and not stuck in countries of birth.
 
barbarian said:
but, still coming with such a news and saying "we dont want these kind of people in europe", something i can wait only from greek people. i believe they must stop hating turkey for their "promised land" and concentrate on their economy. they didnt make any other addition to the cultural life of europe since 500 BC (and dont blame turkey for this, because it is not ottomans problem if you are weak).
considerable amount of people (not minority) like me in turkey fights against these islamic powers, it will be very bright victory for the mankind and a good example for the other islamic countries if we can win it. europe can help us in this war or not it is their choice.
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I agree with the majority of the things you said in your post except for the part I quoted.

I know as well as you do, that the Turkish people that live in the coastline of Turkey, close to the Aegean Sea, or people who live in Constantinople (most of these people have western roots, mostly from Greece and Italy since the Byzantine era) are well educated and less fanatic in matters of religion and I also know that people in the middle and east side of Turkey are those who act like the people in my starting post in this thread. And these are the people I don't want in Europe.

I don't want anyone who treats women like that, it's the result that annoys me, the reason for that is not really my problem, but their's to figure out and correct it. Unfortunatelly for Turks in the west side, their country is a big one that includes people of all kinds and if Turkey were to join Europe those who live in the east will join too. There is no way to include in European Union only the western part of Turkey were people seem to be more civilized, so that means they have to wait also until Turkey changes as a whole.

It is not only Greeks who say that they don't want such people in Europe, believe me. I know plenty of people from all over Europe that disagree with such practices in the islamic world and they don't want such things to happen in their countries. Countries that value women as human beings and not objects that must obey to the man of the house. Your stereotypes that all Greeks hate the Turks do not really apply nowadays. Most Greeks believe that there are ways we can get along, mostly with the west part of your country. What the majority of Greeks doesn't like is the behaviour of your government towards Greece, but that is a different topic.

Compared to other Turks, you seem like a person with whom I can have a decent conversation, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't mention inaccuracies about Greeks and Greek history that are only a result of your country's hate against Greece.
 
Marianne said:
I agree with the majority of the things you said in your post except for the part I quoted.

I know as well as you do, that the Turkish people that live in the coastline of Turkey, close to the Aegean Sea, or people who live in Constantinople (most of these people have western roots, mostly from Greece and Italy since the Byzantine era) are well educated and less fanatic in matters of religion and I also know that people in the middle and east side of Turkey are those who act like the people in my starting post in this thread. And these are the people I don't want in Europe.

I don't want anyone who treats women like that, it's the result that annoys me, the reason for that is not really my problem, but their's to figure out and correct it. Unfortunatelly for Turks in the west side, their country is a big one that includes people of all kinds and if Turkey were to join Europe those who live in the east will join too. There is no way to include in European Union only the western part of Turkey were people seem to be more civilized, so that means they have to wait also until Turkey changes as a whole.

It is not only Greeks who say that they don't want such people in Europe, believe me. I know plenty of people from all over Europe that disagree with such practices in the islamic world and they don't want such things to happen in their countries. Countries that value women as human beings and not objects that must obey to the man of the house. Your stereotypes that all Greeks hate the Turks do not really apply nowadays. Most Greeks believe that there are ways we can get along, mostly with the west part of your country. What the majority of Greeks doesn't like is the behaviour of your government towards Greece, but that is a different topic.

Compared to other Turks, you seem like a person with whom I can have a decent conversation, so I would appreciate if you wouldn't mention inaccuracies about Greeks and Greek history that are only a result of your country's hate against Greece.
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thank for your realy kind and detached reply., compared to other Greeks.

however, i understand from your reply that i couldnt express myself well.
you say that we do not want such a people in EU, and mean that these kind of cases are normal in this country because we are muslim. But, i wanted to explain that it is not islam to blame, it is lack of education. christianity also made tons of mistakes like this in history. So if you would come up with an idea "Turkeys overall education level is not enough for EU. They must firstly handle this problem" i would totally be agree with you.

"I know as well as you do, that the Turkish people that live in the coastline of Turkey, close to the Aegean Sea, or people who live in Constantinople (most of these people have western roots, mostly from Greece and Italy since the Byzantine era)"

this part tells why you hate Turkey. and if so, i have rights to say Greece has Turkish roots from the Ottoman era.
 
barbarian said:
thank for your realy kind and detached reply., compared to other Greeks.
however, i understand from your reply that i couldnt express myself well.
you say that we do not want such a people in EU, and mean that these kind of cases are normal in this country because we are muslim. But, i wanted to explain that it is not islam to blame, it is lack of education. christianity also made tons of mistakes like this in history. So if you would come up with an idea "Turkeys overall education level is not enough for EU. They must firstly handle this problem" i would totally be agree with you.
"I know as well as you do, that the Turkish people that live in the coastline of Turkey, close to the Aegean Sea, or people who live in Constantinople (most of these people have western roots, mostly from Greece and Italy since the Byzantine era)"
this part tells why you hate Turkey. and if so, i have rights to say Greece has Turkish roots from the Ottoman era.
Click to expand...
I believe you when you say that a big factor for such practices in Turkey is education, but, as I said in my previous post, my main concern is for the problem to be resolved and not for it's cause. Of course christianity made mistakes in the past, no one is perfect. What matters though is for people to learn from their mistakes and correct them.

Turkey is a country of about 80million people. Not all of them are bad and not all of them are good (this applies for every country), but one thing that doesn't change in the majority of the Turks is their mentality that is affected by Islam, while the mentality of Europeans is affected by christianity (even if many Europeans claim they don't believe in God). That means that turkish and european mentality are different and that will not change easily. For uneducated people the difference tends to be even bigger and if Turkey were to join EU in the near future, people with a big mentality gap will meet and interact with each other. Where do you think this will lead?

EU countries have differences with each other. Many countries don't really like others, but something makes the union "work". This something is common cultural backround and common religion. Turkey doesn't really fit to that and that is why most Europeans don't want your country to join. It has nothing to do with personal hate towards Turks. It has to do with different mentality.


offtopic:

As for mixture between Turks and Greeks in Greek grounds, it has been proven by many DNA studies that Greeks are very homogenous and their DNA make up didn't really change since ancient times, while on the other hand Turkey is a country with big DNA admixture. There was mixing between Turks and Greeks but that happened mostly in Turkish grounds. Greeks who lived in Greece didn't interract with a lot of Turks, so their hate and religion didn't let them allow Greek-Turkish marriages, but in Asia Minor that was more common. Besides if you take a look on DNA studies, Greek DNA is closest to Italian, Balkan and Spanish but not Turkish, not even Cypriot and we speak the same language!
From dienekes blogspot
 
Marianne said:
I believe you when you say that a big factor for such practices in Turkey is education, but, as I said in my previous post, my main concern is for the problem to be resolved and not for it's cause. Of course christianity made mistakes in the past, no one is perfect. What matters though is for people to learn from their mistakes and correct them.

Turkey is a country of about 80million people. Not all of them are bad and not all of them are good (this applies for every country), but one thing that doesn't change in the majority of the Turks is their mentality that is affected by Islam, while the mentality of Europeans is affected by christianity (even if many Europeans claim they don't believe in God). That means that turkish and european mentality are different and that will not change easily. For uneducated people the difference tends to be even bigger and if Turkey were to join EU in the near future, people with a big mentality gap will meet and interact with each other. Where do you think this will lead?

EU countries have differences with each other. Many countries don't really like others, but something makes the union "work". This something is common cultural backround and common religion. Turkey doesn't really fit to that and that is why most Europeans don't want your country to join. It has nothing to do with personal hate towards Turks. It has to do with different mentality.


http://img545.imageshack.us/i/dna.jpg/
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Dear Marianne,
i hope this time i will express myself better.
i dont say Turkish and European cultures are alike. i dont say europeans should let turkey to be EU country. i know most of the europeans do not support turkey as an EU member. i also say that our aducation level is not enough yet (however, Greece economy is not enough for EU also, and lots of EU people dont want GR as an EU member because of this reason neither).

i just dont understand why you take such a specific example and generalize it as if all the people living in this country obey these kind of treatment. Should i say that in Austria ensest relationship is normal (of course no, it happens sometimes here in turkey or somewhere else also). Or can we say German like to burn the houses with the household inside (that is also something that you cannot generalize).

that is being said, i also admit turkey is not enough for EU. however, you must come up with more scientific diagnosis, instead of such a specific case. Honestly, i believe that your aim is to increase the bad image about turkey in peoples eyes.
 
"As for mixture between Turks and Greeks in Greek grounds, it has been proven by many DNA studies that Greeks are very homogenous and their DNA make up didn't really change since ancient times, while on the other hand Turkey is a country with big DNA admixture. "

I dont understand what are you talking about. Greece is as mixed as turkey. you are little bit more slavic and african, and turkey little bit more caucasian and arabic/mesopotomian, (and even that ratios are close to each other.) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
however, you may feel more mediterrian, that is more understandable.

"There was mixing between Turks and Greeks but that happened mostly in Turkish grounds. Greeks who lived in Greece didn't interract with a lot of Turks, so their hate and religion didn't let them allow Greek-Turkish marriages, but in Asia Minor that was more common. "

So, you say that greece greek didnt change their religion and lifestyle, but anatolian greeks totally changed?
 
Exactly that is what I'm saying. If we had changed our religion we would be muslims now not christians. Religion isn't something you change every 10 years or so. If you convert you stay that way. And those Greeks who did convert within Greek grounds moved to Turkey after Greece became autonomous. That is proven data. Anatolian Greeks on the other hand (those who weren't kicked out) were assimilated by the Turks and now they are completely turkish

As for the Y-DNA haplogroups chart you posted, Y-DNA doesn't prove anchestry. It's an indicator of where one 1 male ancestor came from 10.000-50.000 years ago. If a European father has boys with an African woman and all their kids keep having kids with african women after many generations no European DNA will exist in the male descendants but their Y-DNA will be European.

Autosomal DNA does prove ancestry, and if you read scientific data about it you will see that:

Turning to Greeks (EL, recruited in northern Greece), we see that they have BOMs (best overall match) from Norway, Sweden, the UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and Greece. Conversely, the BOMs of some Dutch, Spanish, Italian, and Greek individuals is a Greek.

The overall BOMs of the Greek individuals is also noteworthy because no matches are observed between Greeks and Eastern Europeans or vice versa. This probably indicates the absence among Greeks of many substantially "Slav-like" individuals; individual Greeks may have "genetic look-alikes" in distant Britain or Scandinavia, but none at all in Eastern Europe. Indeed, they have a greater-than-random number of matches only with the large German sample (DE1) from Kiel, which probably indicates the substantial heterogeneity of this sample, whose members serve as close matches to many European ethnic groups.

For the Greek sample, the closest populations are Yugoslavs (YU, 0.047), Italians (IT2, 0.0049; IT1, 0.053), and Austrians (AT, 0.054). Most distant ones are Finns (FI, 0.142), Germans (DE1, 0.117), Dutch (NL, 0.112), UK (UK, 0.106), and Norwegians (NO, 0.103). This parallels the observation in [6] that in the first two principal components, Greeks are closest to Yugoslavs and Italians among the studied groups.
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By dienekes blog spot again.

Do you see why stereotypes don't really apply? You say we are "you are little bit more slavic and african, and turkey little bit more caucasian and arabic/mesopotomian" but our closest matches are Italians or Yugoslavs and none of the populations you mentioned. In the same research Rusians are one of our most distanct matches and 99.5% of Greeks are European (autosomal DNA research) which is more than some northern European countries who are usually considered 100% European, by other stereotypes.

Anyway your whole post was off topic and I shouldn't have replied in this thread. So I won't start discusing about DNA data anymore in this topic.
 
Marianne said:
This parallels the observation in [6] that in the first two principal components, Greeks are closest to Yugoslavs and Italians among the studied groups

Anyway your whole post was off topic and I shouldn't have replied in this thread. So I won't start discusing about DNA data anymore in this topic.
Click to expand...
:smile: ok thanks, anyway, for reply.

chao
 
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