To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[PaleoRevenge]

Nice feature, but for E-V13 it suffers from the usual shortcomings, mostly dictated by the lack of ancient samples and modern samples, especially from specific regions.
Like the centre for the early E-V13 distribution being guessed around Shkoder, whereas much of Bulgaria-Romania being largely left out even in the later periods. The British Isles being reached about 1.900 BC, whereas most of Romania-Moldova was reached only in the La Tene period! This is of course absurd, because in the La Tene period they were rather pushed back, not newly spread to those areas of Northern Romania and Moldova.
The most obvious reason for this is the lack of Eastern samples, especially from Romania-Moldova-Western Ukraine in the prehistorical period and modern testers, whereas there is a strong testing bias towards the British Isles in particular.

I can imagine E-V13 to have appeared on the British Isles as early as with Urnfield-related migrations, but surely not earlier and rather later, especially for the great majority. The lack of ancient samples plus the strong British bias in combination cause therefore a significant distortion.

Here the position of E-V13 in the tool around 2.500 BC:

https://ibb.co/mDzyg60

It is is easy to spot the most obvious problem, which is the positioning is much too Western. The North-South axis is at this point much more disputed then the East-West one, because it is pretty clear we are dealing with a centre between the Tisza river basin and the Lower Danube basin. The question is whether its either or one at this early stage.
Anything West of the Central Balkans can be excluded.

I think this has some implications for all haplogroups, because the tool as such looks nice and largely correct, but it can just work with the available data. If there is a lack of ancient and modern unbiased sampling, the result can't be 100 % right.

But its a great tool and I expect it to become more accurate with more ancient and modern samples. Its already much better for many branches than things were on other tools some years ago. Even just 2 years ago, things looked worse.

10,000 BC coastal map.

 

[Riverman]

10,000 BC coastal map.

Yes, that's something I mentioned on AG as well, and its by default, for whatever unknown reason. The coastline doesn't change over time, it stays the same as in the Ice Age.

As an addition to my last post before, we can all see how absurd that distribution is, if considering that the whole area being soon afterwards dotted with J-L283, and in no way can it bee seen as the central group/hotspot of E-V13 in the Bronze and Early Iron Age, if just going by the available ancient DNA record.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Hawk thanks for sharing that. I think Carles Fox included the Golomova samples in his graph because he included it in his Roman sample map, which means his Iron Age graph includes Gomolova samples which have a bizarre I1 in the graph(sacrificed early Germanic).

I personally do not think Bulgaria is part of his numbers because E-M78 and and E-618 would fall under other not E-V13, and it is not part of his Roman samples. If that's the case the Gomolova samples should be:

Golomova, Iron Age Serbia:
8 E-V13 (0 if Bulgaria are included and the E-L618 in MKD is treated as E-V13), technically E-618 is not E-V13.
0 J2b-L283
2 J2a
1 R-Z2103
3 R-M269
2 R-xM269 (unknown clade)
1 G2a
2 R-L51
1 I1
0-1 R1a-Z93 (1 if Bulgaria is excluded)
1 I2-L621
3 other (0 if Bulgaria E-M78s are included)

So do we have 24-25 haplo samples from Gomolova or 13? I think a paper with only 13 haplos seems like a a lot of bureaucracy to a publish a big nothing burger.

It turns out samples from the 1,200 BC project are not restricted to Gomolava. Here is an abstract from 2022.

Linda Fibiger is also the lead person in the Gomolava study which has 78 samples. I think this explains our extra samples from Fox's graph. More J2a in BA Greece, even PF7563 likely too as there are 11 extra M269. The E-V13 can be both in Serbia(channelled ware and Bosut) and northern Greece(channelled ware trail of carnage). The samples will be both LBA and EIA just as the name of project suggests. This might explain the additional samples from Fox's graph.

The additional samples l backed into in prior posts:

Bronze Age (LBA Serbia and Greece):

1 E-V13
8 R-Z2103
11 R-M269
9 J2a
0 G2a
2 I-L621
2 R1a-Z283
2 R1a-Z93
1 R1b (xM269)
7 other

Early Iron Age (Serbia and Greece)
8 E-V13
2 J2a
1 R-Z2103
3 R-M269
2 R-xM269 (unknown clade)
1 G2a
2 R-L51
1 I1
1 R1a-Z93
1 I2-L621
3 other

 

[Riverman]

I almost gave up any hope on the Hungarian paper, the Transylvanian paper is 1 year overdue and the Serbian, about which we still can just speculate will appear when? Quite frustrating that there happens almost nothing of real and decisive significance on the topic at the moment.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I almost gave up any hope on the Hungarian paper, the Transylvanian paper is 1 year overdue and the Serbian, about which we still can just speculate will appear when? Quite frustrating that there happens almost nothing of real and decisive significance on the topic at the moment.

I'm new to this, I don't know which Hungarian paper you have in mind. I have no idea what the goal is, are these papers going to be published individually or combined into one giant publication like southern arc?

This study, seems to be the one that has the single male from southern Epirus as R1b that was leaked on a youtube video from 2018 (five years ago)

 

[Riverman]

I'm new to this, I don't know which Hungarian paper you have in mind. I have no idea what the goal is, are these papers going to be published individually or combined into one giant publication like southern arc?

This study, seems to be the one that has the single male from southern Epirus as R1b that was leaked on a youtube video from 2018 (five years ago)

The Hungarian research group made a presentation about the Carpathian Basin in the Bronze Age, in which some images with single E1b1b appeared and a couple of samples mentioned were already published in other papers. But the bulk of it, including the E1b1b, presumably E-V13, were not.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Riverman, you posted this in anthrogenica:

The steppe influence in Tripolye-Cucuteni from the steppe started earlier, we see first steppe admixture and artefacts, products of steppe provenience already before its downfall. They presumably used allied steppe groups as a buffer in their borderzone, which they kept in alliance by intensive trade and gifts, payments, similar to Romans later, and when this system under Eastern pressure collapsed, they were lost.
Late Tripolye-Cucuteni phase was just the steppe overtake.
I doubt that Usaotovo is ​

DIRECTLY

ancestral to Corded Ware in any way, but rather they were part of the same Western steppe, Sredny Stog, corded decorated pottery horizon, which just split up in a more Southern group of Cernavoda-Usatovo and Cotofeni on the one hand, and a more Northern, forest steppe group which was ancestral to Corded Ware. So they were very close to each other, closer than to Yamnaya, but not in an ancestral relationship.
Typical for the Southern, early groups from the corded decorated pottery horion (Cernavoda, Usatovo, Cotofeni) is that they mixed extensively both with locals and Eastern-Southern GAC groups, starting earlier with that admixture than the Proto-Corded Ware branch.
That's why they have a higher likelihood of non-steppe lineages being integrated early and on greater scale, especially I2, G2, J2a and E-V13. How J-L283 fits into this is still unresolved, but I would say an Eastern origin over the Black Sea is a good alternative, so is an early presence among the Carpatho-Balkan steppe admixed groups.​

Based on the new paper that came out, the G25 values agree, some these folks(Usatove, Cernavodă, Boyanovo) were corded shifted despite being Yamnaya, especially the ones with least neolithic mixture. More interesting is, Logkas, Alb EBA and the non-Illyrian MKD IA can be modeled with such corded-shifted Yamnaya successfully while the early Cetina men and Alb MBA J2b want a more traditional Yamnaya(Samara, Kalmykia).
The G25 calc has no hick ups at, all, the reason why it was showing corded ancestery all along for samples it should, the Yamnaya parent of these populations was corded-shifted or corded-like.

 

[mount123]

Based on the new paper that came out, the G25 values agree, some these folks(Usatove, Cernavodă, Boyanovo) were corded shifted despite being Yamnaya, especially the ones with least neolithic mixture.

Usatovo and Cernavoda are not Yamnaya. They are in fact western Serednii Stih derivatives, and by that fall into the realm of Western Steppe pre-Yamnaya cultures. The majority of Boyanovo samples on the other hand are just Balkan Yamnaya. One or two seem to be shifted towards some non-Yamnaya western steppe samples IIRC some of the discussions on auDNA regarding this paper.

 

[Riverman]

Usatovo and Cernavoda are not Yamnaya. They are in fact western Serednii Stih derivatives, and by that fall into the realm of Western Steppe pre-Yamnaya cultures. The majority of Boyanovo samples on the other hand are just Balkan Yamnaya. One or two seem to be shifted towards some non-Yamnaya western steppe samples IIRC some of the discussions on auDNA regarding this paper.

Yes, that's the complex issue about the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, that they resceived Western steppe admixture early (Cernavoda-Usatovo-Cotofeni primarily), actual Yamnaya pastoralists AND actual Northern Corded Ware/Epi-Corded too at a later point, e.g. in Mako a bit and much more in F?zesabony-Otomani.

Crucial is however, that Yamnaya was in most areas more kind of a "guest", which never grew deep roots and was ultimately replaced in most (not all!) groups by the more rooted agro-pastoralist Cotofeni people. Therefore only very specific strains of steppe-admixed people were actual Yamnaya derived, whereas the majority stems from Cotofeni in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere and of course later invasions from the North and steppe too.

 

[kingdavid]

saw this abstract in the new anthrogenica forum
i think e-v13 will show up
130 genomes


CONTINUITY AND DISCONTINUITY DURING THE MIGRATION PERIOD FROM THE KESZTHELYFENÉKPUSZTA FORTRESS PERSPECTIVE

Abstract author(s): Traverso, Luca (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Bollók, Ádám (Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Gnecchi Ruscone, Guido (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Koncz, István (Institute of Archaeological Sciences, Eötvös Loránd University; Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Knipper, Corina (Curt-EngelhornCenter Archaeometry gGmbH) - Pohl, Walter (Institute for Medieval Research, Austrian Academy of Sciences; Department of History, University of Viennastria) - Geary, Patrick (Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton) - Krause, Johannes (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Vida, Tivadar (Institute of Archaeological Sciences, Eötvös Loránd University; Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Hofmanová, Zuzana (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology; Department of Archaeology and Museology, Faculty of Arts, Masaryk University)

Abstract format: Oral

For the Carpathian Basin, the Early Middle Ages represented a period of intense human mobility across the region, reflected in the complexity of the archaeological findings dated to that time. The Keszthely-Fenékpuszta site with its seven cemeteries dated between the 4th and the 7th centuries provides unique insights into the historical developments of this turbulent epoch. The site’s late Roman fortress, continuously inhabited by a mixture of local and newcoming groups throughout the Hun, Langobard, and early Avar periods, retained its importance until the mid-7th century. Here, we analysed cemeteries from the 5th-7th century, employing newly generated genome-wide ancient DNA, archaeological finds and C, N and Sr isotopes data. Thanks to the entire-cemetery sampling approach with a combination of different methods employed in the frame of the HistoGenes ERC project, genomic diversity was co-analysed with isotopes, grave goods and other archaeological analyses on the specific and broader scale. Since the 1960s, the identity of the people buried in Keszthely has been lively debated, especially the Early Avar period burials with lavish Merovingian and Early Byzantine grave goods (so-called Keszthely Culture). From the analysis of more than 130 individuals, we extrapolated the differences between the cemeteries and tackled some of these questions. Through the study of the genomic structure of the population integrated with a detailed analysis of the isotope data, we investigated the apparently continuous inhabitation of the fortress, which was in contrast to the partial discontinuity in material culture, and tested the hypothesis of a re-population of the fortress during the 7th century. This approach allowed a further insight into the social structure, tracing a process of continuous restructuring of elite groups of different origins that were buried here. The results also shed some light on the role of biological relatedness during the Migration Period.

 

[Riverman]

saw this abstract in the new anthrogenica forum
i think e-v13 will show up
130 genomes


CONTINUITY AND DISCONTINUITY DURING THE MIGRATION PERIOD FROM THE KESZTHELYFENÉKPUSZTA FORTRESS PERSPECTIVE

Abstract author(s): Traverso, Luca (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Bollók, Ádám (Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Gnecchi Ruscone, Guido (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Koncz, István (Institute of Archaeological Sciences, Eötvös Loránd University; Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Knipper, Corina (Curt-EngelhornCenter Archaeometry gGmbH) - Pohl, Walter (Institute for Medieval Research, Austrian Academy of Sciences; Department of History, University of Viennastria) - Geary, Patrick (Institute for Advanced Study, Princeton) - Krause, Johannes (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology) - Vida, Tivadar (Institute of Archaeological Sciences, Eötvös Loránd University; Institute of Archaeology, Research Centre for the Humanities, Eötvös Loránd Research Network) - Hofmanová, Zuzana (Department of Archaeogenetics, Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology; Department of Archaeology and Museology, Faculty of Arts, Masaryk University)

Abstract format: Oral

For the Carpathian Basin, the Early Middle Ages represented a period of intense human mobility across the region, reflected in the complexity of the archaeological findings dated to that time. The Keszthely-Fenékpuszta site with its seven cemeteries dated between the 4th and the 7th centuries provides unique insights into the historical developments of this turbulent epoch. The site’s late Roman fortress, continuously inhabited by a mixture of local and newcoming groups throughout the Hun, Langobard, and early Avar periods, retained its importance until the mid-7th century. Here, we analysed cemeteries from the 5th-7th century, employing newly generated genome-wide ancient DNA, archaeological finds and C, N and Sr isotopes data. Thanks to the entire-cemetery sampling approach with a combination of different methods employed in the frame of the HistoGenes ERC project, genomic diversity was co-analysed with isotopes, grave goods and other archaeological analyses on the specific and broader scale. Since the 1960s, the identity of the people buried in Keszthely has been lively debated, especially the Early Avar period burials with lavish Merovingian and Early Byzantine grave goods (so-called Keszthely Culture). From the analysis of more than 130 individuals, we extrapolated the differences between the cemeteries and tackled some of these questions. Through the study of the genomic structure of the population integrated with a detailed analysis of the isotope data, we investigated the apparently continuous inhabitation of the fortress, which was in contrast to the partial discontinuity in material culture, and tested the hypothesis of a re-population of the fortress during the 7th century. This approach allowed a further insight into the social structure, tracing a process of continuous restructuring of elite groups of different origins that were buried here. The results also shed some light on the role of biological relatedness during the Migration Period.

This group from the left bank of the Danube is speculated to be fairly "Roman" in character, so I expect a fairly mixed make up with various influences and yes, it is quite likely E-V13 was present there as well, but unlikekly to have been as dominant is in areas in which we have known Daco-Thracian settlement of significance, like Viminacium. Therefore it merely depends on chance and how many samples they have taken, whether at least some E-V13 will pop up or not. Chances should be good.

 

[mount123]

Yes, that's the complex issue about the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, that they resceived Western steppe admixture early (Cernavoda-Usatovo-Cotofeni primarily), actual Yamnaya pastoralists AND actual Northern Corded Ware/Epi-Corded too at a later point, e.g. in Mako a bit and much more in F�zesabony-Otomani.

Crucial is however, that Yamnaya was in most areas more kind of a "guest", which never grew deep roots and was ultimately replaced in most (not all!) groups by the more rooted agro-pastoralist Cotofeni people. Therefore only very specific strains of steppe-admixed people were actual Yamnaya derived, whereas the majority stems from Cotofeni in the Carpatho-Balkan sphere and of course later invasions from the North and steppe too.

Which makes the IE-isation of the Carpatho-Balkans multifarious as opposed to the one dimensional proposals on anthrofora one often reads when dealing with this topic.

These should also be of interest to Chalcolithic J2b-L283 origins with one rumored presence actually being affiliated with such a Copper Age MPIE culture.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I read some days ago, a book from Cambridge, should have saved it, but they noted in south-western Macedonia(Fyrom), they found corded style pottery in EBA and the author wrote, we cannot explain this presence. I think the book was from the 70s or early 80s. The point being, I agree, we should not be force feeding the calculator a Yamnaya option. All EBA and MBA samples should be given the a free choice option.

Later samples from LBA and on are tricky because some groups like the Illyrians mixed with Beaker and early Celts which gradually shifted them to a corded profile. The calc is only precise within a thousand year range, it cannot account for actions(mixtures) outside of larger time frames and will take shortcuts.

 

[Riverman]

I read some days ago, a book from Cambridge, should have saved it, but they noted in south-western Macedonia(Fyrom), they found corded style pottery in EBA and the author wrote, we cannot explain this presence. I think the book was from the 70s or early 80s. The point being, I agree, we should not be force feeding the calculator a Yamnaya option. All EBA and MBA samples should be given the a free choice option.

Later samples from LBA and on are tricky because some groups like the Illyrians mixed with Beaker and early Celts which gradually shifted them to a corded profile. The calc is only precise within a thousand year range, it cannot account for actions(mixtures) outside of larger time frames and will take shortcuts.

Steppe admixture is generally tricky, just like in moderns many calculators have difficulties with e.g. German vs. English. Keep in mind that in the time frame we are talking about, we are talking about a similar relationship of the different steppe groups as it is with German and English! And just look how nearly all calculators sometimes struggle with that task, even though I'd say the different between German and English, if anything, is rather bigger than that of Corded Ware vs. farmer admixed Yamnaya.
That's also why IBD sharing and uniparentals are so important, because they are the only hard proof for a close relationship of any sort - if done right. Even IBD can fail, which is why I trust, especially for patrilinear IE people, yDNA the most.

 

[kingdavid]

Another one that should be interesting
If i am not wrong there was a paper
Who found e-v13 in alt-inden
So maybe it will appear in this research
Especially in the legionary camps

DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSITIONS? ARCHAEOGENETIC ANALYSES OF LATE ANTIQUE AND EARLY MEDIEVAL CEMETERIES FROM THE RHINELAND

Abstract author(s): Lacher, Laura (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology) - Nieveler, Elke (Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn) - Päffgen, Bernd (Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München) - Schmauder, Michael (Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn; Universität Bonn) - Gretzinger, Joscha (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology) - Krause, Johannes (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology; Friedrich-Schiller-University Jena) - Schiffels, Stephan (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology)

Abstract format: Oral
The transition from late antiquity to the early medieval period in central Europe has long been a research focus in historical and archaeological sciences. Particularly, whether the observed political and cultural changes are accompanied by demographic changes, remains elusive. Here, we study ancient DNA from multiple cemeteries in the Rhineland spanning the period from 300 to 800 AD, including the transition point at 450 AD. We analyse burials from late Roman military contexts, Bonn and Jülich, and those from local population cemeteries, especially Alt-Inden. We benefit from precise archaeological dating to correlate our genetic results and view them as a high-resolution time-series in the time span before and after 450 AD. First, we find evidence of different ancestry backgrounds between the legionary camps, suggesting that the camps were comprised of people from a similar region, but this origin was different between the two sites. Second we observe signals of ancestry shifts through time in both the legionary burials as well as the local cemeteries, which we interpret as the result of migration into the region. Last, we find haplotype sharing indicative of close familial relationships between Jülich and Alt-Inden, whereas the individuals from Bonn show no relatedness to any other site that we studied. In conclusion, our study provides a new high resolution temporal and spatial insight into the demographic patterns of the transition time between late antiquity and early middle ages in the Rhine region.

 

[Anfänger]

Another one that should be interesting
If i am not wrong there was a paper
Who found e-v13 in alt-inden
So maybe it will appear in this research
Especially in the legionary camps

DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSITIONS? ARCHAEOGENETIC ANALYSES OF LATE ANTIQUE AND EARLY MEDIEVAL CEMETERIES FROM THE RHINELAND

Abstract author(s): Lacher, Laura (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology) - Nieveler, Elke (Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn) - Päffgen, Bernd (Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München) - Schmauder, Michael (Rheinisches Landesmuseum Bonn; Universität Bonn) - Gretzinger, Joscha (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology) - Krause, Johannes (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology; Friedrich-Schiller-University Jena) - Schiffels, Stephan (Max-Planck Institute for evolutionary Anthropology)

Abstract format: Oral
The transition from late antiquity to the early medieval period in central Europe has long been a research focus in historical and archaeological sciences. Particularly, whether the observed political and cultural changes are accompanied by demographic changes, remains elusive. Here, we study ancient DNA from multiple cemeteries in the Rhineland spanning the period from 300 to 800 AD, including the transition point at 450 AD. We analyse burials from late Roman military contexts, Bonn and Jülich, and those from local population cemeteries, especially Alt-Inden. We benefit from precise archaeological dating to correlate our genetic results and view them as a high-resolution time-series in the time span before and after 450 AD. First, we find evidence of different ancestry backgrounds between the legionary camps, suggesting that the camps were comprised of people from a similar region, but this origin was different between the two sites. Second we observe signals of ancestry shifts through time in both the legionary burials as well as the local cemeteries, which we interpret as the result of migration into the region. Last, we find haplotype sharing indicative of close familial relationships between Jülich and Alt-Inden, whereas the individuals from Bonn show no relatedness to any other site that we studied. In conclusion, our study provides a new high resolution temporal and spatial insight into the demographic patterns of the transition time between late antiquity and early middle ages in the Rhine region.

Where can I find this paper?

 

[Riverman]

Where can I find this paper?

Its a talk at a conference, the results aren't published yet.

 

[Anfänger]

Its a talk at a conference, the results aren't published yet.

Thanks! Can't wait for this study to be published.

 

[Riverman]

Thanks! Can't wait for this study to be published.

The probably most important paper for the Carpatho-Balkans about the genetic continuity in Transylvania being still not published yet, despite the talk having been one year ago. The also very important Carpathian Basin talk is more than two years ago, therefore we can never be sure when the actual paper gets out. Some, like the Carpathian Basin paper, probably never. Others came out just weeks or even days after a talk, we just never know.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Revisiting the pre-print "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples", their PCA graph shows quite a lot of potential of more Bessarabi profiles. My cluster for Dacian is based on the Himera E-V13 samples and the strange IA profile that protrudes toward modern Slavs in the graph below.

Similar PCA with current published samples.