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The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations.

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Duarte said:
Yes, this problem with editing is happening sometimes.
Thanks for the links, Archetype0ne. Very usefull. I am posting them again.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodes_Atticus
Click to expand...

Memnon as per Herodotus referred to the light-skinned africans from libya in his Iliad book

Many texts state this for
. Herodotus (1.46) used Λιβύη Libúē to indicate the African continent; the Líbues proper were the light-skinned North Africans, while those south of Egypt (and Elephantine on the Nile) were known to him as "Aethiopians";[3] this was also the understanding of later Greek geographers such Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, etc.

I have even seen the reference to Susa in other odd ancient historians refer to Iran


Aethiopians .................The Cambridge History of North Africa and the people between them ( Libyans ) as the Egyptians, p. 141. ................................I recall the mention of Cyrene in Libya as the Aethiopians ............Cyrene is eastern Libya , Benghazi area ...........instead of western Libya and tripoli
 
Angela said:
@Archetype One,

Whether it makes people "cringe" or not, there are 3 "poles" of humanity. West Eurasian/East Asian/SSA. You might, if you want, add SA or Americas

That they are "different" from one another is a scientific fact, as one can see from the PCA. The differences arose over time because they only "admixed" with one another, if you prefer that word to "breeding". What do you think happened when the Indo-Europeans arrived? They "bred" with the locals, or "admixed", if you want to use that term.

I would suggest everyone read Reich's opinion piece carefully and take it to heart.

If we ignore science, we eventually go into the abyss.

I'm sorry to disturb your innocence, but being a "person of color" doesn't protect you if you don't hue to the "party line". Razib Khan, who is about as SA and "brown" as you can get, is called a "white supremacist" for his genetic writings.

This is what the "woke" crowd (often very leftist white Democrats who pay fortunes to live in certain neighborhoods so their kids needn't go to school with POC", say about Tim Scott, "BLACK" senator who happens to be a Republican, because he looked at the "economic" effects of the stimulus bill and the social effects of the rhetoric coming out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IiKcoTxZSs

I begin to have some hope for this country. Now that parents know what is in the newly adopted Education Dept curriculums, which schools have to except if they want federal funds, particularly the ones regarding race, they are absolutely crazed. In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them. In addition to being completely and demonstrably UNTRUE, it's evil and toxic and divisive. I thought the whole CIVIL RIGHTS movement was about the "content of one's character", not COLOR, and that it was also about Freedom of Choice of Affiliation. What am I missing?

Just so you know; I was kidding with the "E tu, Brute". That's why I put a smiley. It had to do with the fact that usually your commentary is more reason based than a lot of what I see here.

It's disheartening to read the majority of what is being posted here lately. It's a-scientific illogical nonsense, and I have less and less time for it.
Click to expand...

That is so evil " In the grade one section, children are told to compare their skin color to a chart. If they are "darker" than a certain number they are to sit in a color "affiliated" group at lunch time. Mixed race children are told they MUST identify as "Black" and sit at that table because the "white" affiliated children will never accept them." How can they do this to children? Sounds like segregation... Being told they will never be accepted. This just boils my blood. If I was a parent of the children I would sue them. This has the hallmark of human right abuse...

Yeah Angela I agree with what you said. There is poles, and you have to be blind not to notice differences. Glad you understand my point wasn't about being politically correct, rather not falling prey to rhetoric of division both from the right and the left. The "breeding" thing was just a personal observation.

On matters of education/public health-medicine/welfare I would say I am center-left, on matters of economy, propriety and business center right. And I hate the narrative from both extreme sides of the horseshoe describing us centrists as apathetic, we just like to critically think and do not believe one size fits all solutions, like subscribing to party ideology and letting it dictate ones life and personal freedom/choices. Even more ironic if that black politician is called a white supremacist, since his skin color should not dictate his ideology, if he is republican I am sure it is based on what he thinks is right, and no - being republican does not make one a white supremacist, I agree.

But what you are telling me happens in grade school, that thing legit breaks my heart, no kids should be indoctrinated to see themselves as different based on the shade of their skin. No kids should be told their children friends will never accept them. That is truly despicable. If it keeps up like this it is a recipe for disaster and social strife in the future. All great empires can only be corroded from within.
 
Gaska said:
.............

We have three half black Mycenaean, who cares if they had one of the most advanced bronze age cultures in Europe when the Nordics were still in their balls trying to find some fish to eat?
Click to expand...

Gaska, can you please show me the 3 half black Mycenaeans in that study? Or was this a satire attempt ?
 
torzio said:
Memnon as per Herodotus referred to the light-skinned africans from libya in his Iliad book

Many texts state this for
. Herodotus (1.46) used Λιβύη Libúē to indicate the African continent; the Líbues proper were the light-skinned North Africans, while those south of Egypt (and Elephantine on the Nile) were known to him as "Aethiopians";[3] this was also the understanding of later Greek geographers such Diodorus Siculus, Strabo, etc.

I have even seen the reference to Susa in other odd ancient historians refer to Iran


Aethiopians .................The Cambridge History of North Africa and the people between them ( Libyans ) as the Egyptians, p. 141. ................................I recall the mention of Cyrene in Libya as the Aethiopians ............Cyrene is eastern Libya , Benghazi area ...........instead of western Libya and tripoli
Click to expand...

You might wanna re read the Herodotus quote. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it contradicts your conclusion.
 
kingjohn said:
he is banned
Click to expand...
No he isn't.

Nobody has been banned, except the psycho comrade of yours who keeps making sock accounts to upvote inflammatory posts. He gave Gaska 4 upvotes actually all on one post..
 
Jovialis said:
No he isn't.

Nobody has been banned, except the psycho comrade of yours who keeps making sock accounts to upvote inflammatory posts. He gave Gaska 4 upvotes actually all on one post..
Click to expand...

ok , but i have no connection to this romanian
 
Jovialis said:
No he isn't.

Nobody has been banned, except the psycho comrade of yours who keeps making sock accounts to upvote inflammatory posts. He gave Gaska 4 upvotes actually all on one post..
Click to expand...


Thanks for your fairness, and for only resorting in banning as ultima ratio. Other forums are not that tolerant and user friendly. Just saying.
 
Archetype0ne said:
You might wanna re read the Herodotus quote. It does not say what you claim it says. In fact it contradicts your conclusion.
Click to expand...

I know ,....there are too many theories

This from more Herodotus

After this Cambyses planned three expeditions, against the Carchedonians,8 against the Ammonians, and against the “long-lived”9 Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. [2] He decided after consideration to send his fleet against the Carthaginians and a part of his land army against the Ammonians;

Ethiopians who inhabit Libya
Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya.

The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians, their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert, to the N. Egypt and Marmarica, and to the E. the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. The boundaries of Aethiopia Proper, or Meroe, will admit of more particular definition.

so this says from Morocco to the red sea are Aethiopians live


Too many historians have too many theories....but since Herodutus used aethiopians in his Iliad, then what he says , be it right or wrong needs to be taken into account

or

http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/112/M-Drews.pdf
 
torzio said:
I know ,....there are too many theories

This from more Herodotus

After this Cambyses planned three expeditions, against the Carchedonians,8 against the Ammonians, and against the “long-lived”9 Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. [2] He decided after consideration to send his fleet against the Carthaginians and a part of his land army against the Ammonians;

Ethiopians who inhabit Libya
Aethiopia, as a generic or ethnic designation, comprises the inhabitants of Africa who dwelt between the equator, the Red Sea, and the Atlantic, for Strabo speaks of Hesperian Aethiopians S. of the Pharusii and Mauri, and Herodotus (4.197) describes them as occupying the whole of South Libya.

The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians, their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert, to the N. Egypt and Marmarica, and to the E. the Indian Ocean and the Red Sea. The boundaries of Aethiopia Proper, or Meroe, will admit of more particular definition.

so this says from Morocco to the red sea are Aethiopians live


Too many historians have too many theories....but since Herodutus used aethiopians in his Iliad, then what he says , be it right or wrong needs to be taken into account

or

http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/112/M-Drews.pdf
Click to expand...

Yeah... I just got really confused now.

First he says they are South of Egypt.

Then he says:

"Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. "


And then:

"The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians" ... "their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert"Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia.

So yeah, I just got even more confused. All this from the same guy... SMH.
But I mean, technically he is not wrong, Ethiopia is south of Libya.
 
Archetype0ne said:
Yeah... I just got really confused now.

First he says they are South of Egypt.

Then he says:

"Ethiopians, who inhabit that part of Libya that is on the southern sea. "


And then:

"The boundaries of the African Aethiopians are necessarily indefinite. If they were, as seems probable, the ancestors of the Shangallas, Bisháries, and Nubians" ... "their frontiers may be loosely stated as to the S. the Abyssinian Highlands, to the W. the Libyan desert"Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia.

So yeah, I just got even more confused. All this from the same guy... SMH.
But I mean, technically he is not wrong, Ethiopia is south of Libya.
Click to expand...

Libya was the Greek name for Africa.
 
Jovialis said:
I see he is playing a game with you than. He gave you three more.
Click to expand...

I am telling you i dont know this romanian
Maybe he admire me if he give me 3 votes lol:laughing:
You said before i was banned from anthrogenica that is true ( because of saying something not nice on eastern european and not willing to regret for it the liberal moderators took me as a target ) i just found a way to read there posts ( than in a translate form i can read there posts)....
 
Angela said:
I ran the samples through the K13 Modern so there would be no squawking from other places.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Greece_MBA_Log02[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]3.95887610[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]8.18320842[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.02556923[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.20050542[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.67008273[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.67926654[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]13.35816604[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.66986367[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.02793066[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.55129898[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]16.80972933[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.95004457[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.02786454[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.75250117[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.22330097[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.26025182[/TD]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.50536080[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.51763818[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.30129060[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.56086088[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.11848479[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.14110688[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.51626594[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.53301883[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]23.12442215[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Cantabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Log4
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Greece_MBA_Log04[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]8.35465738[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]9.15210905[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.49876080[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.76738289[/TD]
[TD]Serbian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.66054106[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.79527647[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.23441955[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]16.80767384[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.33217240[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.76695500[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.11081108[/TD]
[TD]Moldavian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.34580833[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.40008505[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.79225354[/TD]
[TD]French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.08691365[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.52343051[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.62840517[/TD]
[TD]Austrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.92206491[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.09877011[/TD]
[TD]West_German[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.27530258[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.36302179[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.70000230[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.75738036[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.82477262[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.01043389[/TD]
[TD]Croatian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Well, well, here's a surprise, this sample is closest to admixed Jews (i.e. those which mixed with Europeans), but then Mycenaeans were pretty close to them as well.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Greece_MBA_Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.52527193[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.47616492[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.04608582[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.59917919[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.62203572[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]23.48751370[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.23913159[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.41921375[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.45199992[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.51561875[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.79552761[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.84176969[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.07234382[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.57608565[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite_Berber[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.78684401[/TD]
[TD]Cyprian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.93904973[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.34711096[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.77691262[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.96489141[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.25588905[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.31969238[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.32246239[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.06860725[/TD]
[TD]Egyptian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.22980865[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.40983580[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Greece_MBA_Mik15[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]18.52527193[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.47616492[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.04608582[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.59917919[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.62203572[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]23.48751370[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.23913159[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.41921375[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.45199992[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.51561875[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.79552761[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.84176969[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.07234382[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.57608565[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite_Berber[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.78684401[/TD]
[TD]Cyprian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.93904973[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.34711096[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.77691262[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.96489141[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.25588905[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.31969238[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]33.32246239[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.06860725[/TD]
[TD]Egyptian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.22980865[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]34.40983580[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

The first three were Middle Bronze Age. Now for the Early Bronze Age. Much the same for the first one...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Greece_EBA_Pta08[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]16.32743091[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.79478294[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.81873861[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.92590776[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.18929915[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.12526158[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.56049202[/TD]
[TD]Cyprian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]23.31849266[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.53357903[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.91526440[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.69987549[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.91040525[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.97189442[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.59686214[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.73495628[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.45815876[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite_Berber[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.80092707[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.81681107[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.38614469[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.18337125[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.34125245[/TD]
[TD]Syrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.55785987[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.63102349[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.10842008[/TD]
[TD]Jordanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.11900705[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Same again...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou01[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]16.19176643[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.37221345[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.43704453[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.70652937[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]19.86622007[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.27427320[/TD]
[TD]Cyprian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.80122703[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]23.07222139[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.47097464[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.97725766[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.12103302[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.75772894[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.47167354[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.11146805[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.29519040[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.72263045[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.05404103[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.13735232[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.56914946[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]29.63970142[/TD]
[TD]Syrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.08778324[/TD]
[TD]Mozabite_Berber[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.45786105[/TD]
[TD]Jordanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]30.62695382[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.04383192[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]31.22407565[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

And once more...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]EBA:Greece_EBA_Kou03[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]11.04838450[/TD]
[TD]Algerian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.02086103[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.72752922[/TD]
[TD]South_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]12.99317513[/TD]
[TD]Sephardic_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.37239020[/TD]
[TD]Cyprian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]14.59525265[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]15.21940866[/TD]
[TD]Libyan_Jewish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]16.36783736[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.17588135[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.55569708[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]17.96173711[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]20.08987805[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.06931655[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Muslim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]21.61782366[/TD]
[TD]Samaritan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.77767767[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Christian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]22.87203970[/TD]
[TD]Syrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.39007995[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.76770074[/TD]
[TD]Lebanese_Druze[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]24.78269154[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.58807926[/TD]
[TD]Jordanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]25.73555323[/TD]
[TD]Palestinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]26.03208021[/TD]
[TD]Tunisian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.06813994[/TD]
[TD]Turkish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]27.66145694[/TD]
[TD]Algerian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #0000FF, align: right"]28.11674768[/TD]
[TD]Assyrian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

So, even in the Middle Bronze, where we see the increased steppe is from a settlement on the periphery of the Mycenaean world, the other Middle Bronze Age settlements were still like the much later Mycenaean samples we have.

Now, it could be that there are actual Mycenaean samples which have more steppe, brought by these peripheral people. We don't know. However, if there weren't a lot of them, how much change could they have wrought? We just don't know and won't know until we have more samples.

What we do know, however, is when Bronze Age Greece flourished, and when it got temporarily knocked down.

"The Early Bronze Age (3200-2000 B.C.) is characterised by the spread of metal, the use of which is already known in the Final Neolithic or Chalcolithic period. The Northeastern Aegean, the Cyclades and Mainland Greece are home to specific cultural groups during this period.Initially the way of life in all aspects continues along the lines of its Neolithic predecessor. The general development of the second phase of the period (2700-2200 B.C.) leads to the creation of organised settlements, the construction of monumental buildings and a controlled economy with the accumulation of goods and the use of seals. This is the time of the first urban development, communication between settlements and commerce by sea with the shipping of metal objects, Melian obsidian and fine pottery throughout the Aegean.
In the Northeastern Aegean, Poliochni in Lemnos and Troy in Asia Minor become prominent as strong proto-urban centres.To this same period belong the graves of Leukas in the Ionian Sea, with their rich funerary equipment. In Mainland Greece, Boeotian Orchomenos beside the Kopais lake, Lerna in the Argolid and Aegina are among the important centres of this time -for the well-known Neolithic sites such as Sesklo and Lianokladi we have less evidence. In Attica there are many small but important settlements such as Raphina, Askitario and Ag. Kosmas. The imported objects found in these settlements provide evidence of their habitual communication with the Cyclades.
The development observable during the second phase of the Early Bronze Age comes to an end during the third and last phase of the Period (2200-2000 B.C.). Evident are destructions, the abandonment of settlements and a general disorganisation that has been traditionally associated with the incursion of new populations. The Middle Bronze Age (2000-1600 B.C.) is characterised initially by an economic and cultural decline,as can be seen in the poor remains of the settlements and in the poverty of the burials. It is a time of re establishment and by the middle of the period, development is evident. The growth in population and consequent necessity of further cultivation of the fertile land leads to the appearance of new settlements in opportune places. The most important of these have bronze workshops. Graves are now supplied with bronze weapons and jewellery of gold, bronze and semi-precious stones, in addition to pottery. The pottery of the period, for the most part wheel-made, comprises two main categories Minyan ware and Matt Painted.

Toward the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the richly provided tombs of Mainland Greece bespeak the rise of anumber of ruling groups. The influence of the advanced culture of Minoan Crete, the importation of luxurious and beautifully worked vessels and weapons, the spread of new ideas and techniques is to bring about basic changes that are observable in all levels of life and art. The end of the Middle Helladic Period is marked by social change rather than by catastrophe. It is the time of the Shaft Graves at Mycenae and the new warrior aristocracy which introduces us to the Mycenaean period. "

The Log samples are dated to 2000 to 1800 BC.
Click to expand...

The EBA-MBA transition was likely triggered by climate change.
And it didn't just happen in Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2-kiloyear_event

[h=3]Ancient Egypt[edit][/h]In c. 2150 BC, Egypt was hit by a series of exceptionally-low Nile floods that may have influenced the collapse of the centralised government of the Old Kingdom after a famine.[25]
[h=3]Arabian Peninsula[edit][/h]In the Persian Gulf region, there is a sudden change in settlement pattern, style of pottery and tombs. The 22nd century BC drought marks the end of the Umm Al Nar culture and the change to the Wadi Suq culture.[11]
[h=3]Mesopotamia[edit][/h]The aridification of Mesopotamia may have been related to the onset of cooler sea-surface temperatures in the North Atlantic (Bond event 3), as analysis of the modern instrumental record shows that large (50%) interannual reductions in Mesopotamian water supply result when subpolar northwest Atlantic sea surface temperatures are anomalously cool.[26] The headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are fed by elevation-induced capture of winter Mediterranean rainfall.
The Akkadian Empire in 2300 BC was the second civilisation to subsume independent societies into a single state (the first being ancient Egypt in around 3100 BC). It has been claimed that the collapse of the state was influenced by a wide-ranging, centuries-long drought.[27][28] Archaeological evidence documents widespread abandonment of the agricultural plains of northern Mesopotamia and dramatic influxes of refugees into southern Mesopotamia, around 2170 BC.[29] A 180-km-long wall, the "Repeller of the Amorites," was built across central Mesopotamia to stem nomadic incursions to the south. Around 2150 BC, the Gutian people, who originally inhabited the Zagros Mountains, defeated the demoralised Akkadian army, took Akkad and destroyed it around 2115 BC. Widespread agricultural change in the Near East is visible at the end of the 3rd millennium BC.[30]
Resettlement of the northern plains by smaller sedentary populations occurred near 1900 BC, three centuries after the collapse.[29]
A study of fossil corals in Oman provides evidence that prolonged winter shamal seasons, around 4200 years ago, led to the salinization of the irrigated field, which made, a dramatic decrease in crop production trigger a widespread famine and eventually the collapse of the ancient Akkadian Empire.[31][32]


We also know there was increased warfare and development of bronze armory in the Sintashta area with fortified settlements near wet places where there was winter fodder for the cattle.

The palatial kingdoms must have been hit, if not by immeadiate, then by secondary efftects.


 
Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.

Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.

Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.

Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?

The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.

You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.
 
Angela said:
Yes, I know, Bicicleur. Your beloved steppe people just came in like a bunch of peaceful shepherds to pick up the pieces.

Just like at the end of the Roman Empire, when there was a climate change producing reduced crop yields, and REDUCED STEPPE GRASS.

Only problem for your theory is that we have a lot of evidence for what happened after that climate change. The Germanic peoples started to STARVE. They also were under attack from the HUNS, who were also started to starve. So, they FLED and poured into the Roman Empire.

Are you seriously going to say that their arrival was peaceful?

The men of the steppe poured into a LN Europe weakened by crop failures and the disease brought by steppe people themselves. No group would have accepted being taken over peacefully. If you don't believe me, go ask Johanne Krause.

You're embarrassing yourself by your refusal to accept the conclusions of Krause, Reich, Anthony, everyone, and convince no one.
Click to expand...

My dear Angela,
where did I say they were peaceful?
I merely pointed out some circumstances which may have triggered the EBA-MBA transition and you accuse me of being biased.
I obviously said something you don't want to be told.
You're the one who is embarrissing herself.
 
bicicleur 2 said:
My dear Angela,
where did I say they were peaceful?
I merely pointed out some circumstances which may have triggered the EBA-MBA transition and you accuse me of being biased.
I obviously said something you don't want to be told.
You're the one who is embarrissing herself.
Click to expand...

Please...

You've been doing this for years.

I just said in my post that climate change and disease weakened the farmer cultures and ensured their loss against the invading steppe people. I've been saying that for ten years and everyone knows it.

You're the one who every time someone mentions that the arrival of steppe people brought death and destruction and a decline of civilization in its wake tries to excuse it or changes the subject to show there was violence in Neolithic culture.

Anyone who thinks that's the same as the arrival of a warrior culture hasn't been reading his David Anthony.

You also have always tried to wriggle around the fact that they brought the plague. E-mail Johannes Krause, as I said.

Do you think everyone's forgotten everything you've ever said because there's a 2 after your name?

I have no time for this nonsense.

The facts are what they are. The steppe people didn't have as advanced a civilization as did the people of "Old Europe". Their arrival signaled a decline in civilization until it could be built up again. Period.
 
when there is environmental stress it comes down to survival of the fittest
not only on the steppe, it is like this worldwide
the palatial dynasties were just not fit enough, just like the dynasties in Egypt or Mesopotamia
and there is no clue whatsoever that the plague was involved
I even doubt there was a large invasion, otherwise much more steppe DNA, especially Y-DNA would have been carried down to southern Greece

sorry to doubt your interpretations and phantasies, I always feel the urge to react

P.S. if the IE wouldn't have invaded Italy during the late bronze age, Rome would never have existed
and if they wouldn't have thrown off the yoke of the Etruscans while resisting the Greeks, it would have remained a small vasal city

anyway, soon or later you'll start your rhetorique again
and I'll feel the urge to react again
 
you mention David Anthony
yes the IE did have a warrior culture
but maybe you should reread the last chapters
how the BMAC cities lost their influence
no destruction, the BMAC elite remained in their citadels
but when the IE tribes took over the mining and trading activities the elite became simply redundant and lost it's grip on the local population
you see, it is not always destruction, sometimes the redundant elite with to many priviliges simply loses it's control
a well-organised society should always be able to hold off a loose federation of herders on the run
 
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