The Celts of Iberia

[Knovas]

Forget about him, is the best option. We are not here to convince anybody who is already convinced of another thing, even if dishonestly. Insignificant to waste more time.

Other users will come with a different attitude.

 

[Taranis]

Wilhelm, please. I don't have any problem with you disagreeing with Atilla on the subject, at all, but please, try not to be impolite.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Well, here I go: "The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times." Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.

Find another playground, this one's closed to anyone governed by hatred, ignorance and delusion. Have a nice life.

 

[sparkey]

Well, here I go: "The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times." Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.

This is a criticism of the relevancy of the Celtic history of Iberia to the Spanish nation in a modern context, not a criticism of the idea that Celts had an impact on the history of Iberia or the genetic makeup of modern Iberians. If you want to redirect the conversation from historical evidence of Celts in Iberia to the relevancy of Celtic heritage to Iberians today, then that's a legitimate redirection, but you need to make that clear.

Personally I think that certain areas in Iberia have retained a little bit of Celtic remnants in their culture, but it's so damaged from other influences that it needs a large scale revival effort (which I encourage, being fond of Celtic culture myself) to be more than peripherally relevant.

(And I agree with Taranis, try and be more polite to Atilla, guys, even if you're annoyed with posters with his point of view.)

 

[Wilhelm]

(And I agree with Taranis, try and be more polite to Atilla, guys, even if you're annoyed with posters with his point of view.)

The problem is that he has no point of view. All his 5 posts have nothing to do with this thread, they are all about "how we Iberians believe we are what we can't be" type of bullshit. He is exactly the mexican guy who came here some time ago, saying the exact same things. Im veteran here, I know this guy, Cambria as well knows

 

[Atilla]

This is just a standpoint and thenceforward I can’t understand why do I need to convice myself that I don’t have cherokee blood or that I have a pure blood. I might say Cherokee DNA finds matches in Northern Israel, and along Eastern Mediterranean coastal regions…well… Am I European or Jewish? Of course not. I’m an American with irish and nativeamerican roots, my great-great-grandfathers were irish and cherokees I’m for sure, I try to speak a Cherokee tongue. Who pretends to be celts Know how to speak celtic tongue? Did they know their celt great-great-grandfathers? Of course not. They just based on wreckage that remains of real celtic existence inside a land called Spain and Portugal at present and DNA research ambiguous.

 

[Atilla]

Well, here I go: "The Iberians (and Celts) may have disappeared as identifiable groups, but in the 19th and 20th centuries historians and sociologists unearthed their ashes from the past in an effort to fit them into the history of Spain. It's a fascinating story of how we attempt to make the past fit ideas of nationhood at particular times." Anderson, James Spain: 1001 Sights Calgary, 1991 Collins, Roger Spain: An Oxford Archaeological Guide Oxford, 1998 Ruiz Zapatero, Gonzalo “Celts and Iberians” in Cultural Identity and Archeology eds Graves-Brown, P, Jones S, Gamble C, London 1996 Vincent, Mary and Stradling, R.A Cultural Atlas of Spain and Portugal Abington, Oxford 1994.

I see, I am not american. I'm mexican as all these guys above. Well so be it.

 

[sparkey]

I might say Cherokee DNA finds matches in Northern Israel, and along Eastern Mediterranean coastal regions…

I assume that that idea is based on reports like this. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Everything I have seen has shown Cherokee to be typical Native Americans.

Am I European or Jewish? Of course not. I’m an American with irish and nativeamerican roots, my great-great-grandfathers were irish and cherokees I’m for sure, I try to speak a Cherokee tongue. Who pretends to be celts Know how to speak celtic tongue? Did they know their celt great-great-grandfathers? Of course not. They just based on wreckage that remains of real celtic existence inside a land called Spain and Portugal at present and DNA research ambiguous.

So, you're part Irish. Would you say, then, that you're part Celtic or Gaelic by heritage? If so, how can you be, if you don't speak any Irish Gaelic? Surely, heritage extends beyond language knowledge. Nobody is arguing that modern Iberians are 100% culturally Celtic, anyway, so you're somewhat setting up a strawman.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I assume that that idea is based on reports like this. I wouldn't take it too seriously. Everything I have seen has shown Cherokee to be typical Native Americans.

Celticity is, first and foremost, cultural, with Celtic language being a core component. Even with no extant Celtic language, one can certainly identify as Celtic if he / she can trace his / her ancestral roots to a region or regions where Celticity dominated for long periods of time and Celtic cultural practices are currently pursued at some reasonable level, for instance, music, art, folklore.

Other than the six official Celtic nations, the areas where a Celtic identity has survived (and advanced fairly steadily over the last 100 years) are: Gallaecia (Galicia and N. Portugal), Asturias and possibly Cantabria. I'm tempted to include Cumbria, however, it seems that the governing ethnic consciousness in the area is Anglo-Saxon, despite having a significant Celtic history.

 

[Atilla]

Hi sparkey. Exactly these studies are ambiguous and based on them no one can assert his alleged lineage, so a Cherokee is a Cherokee, an Irishman is an Irishman, and one Iberian is just an Iberian. This information is an excerpt from a BBC television program. “You've seen it on television and read about in the newspapers, and it makes you think twice. The head of Harvard University's African-American Studies department takes some DNA tests and is startled to learn that both his paternal and maternal lines are European, and that he has as much European ancestry as African. An adoptee who always thought her family originated from South America takes a test and is pleased to learn that she's of Native American ancestry.” Can you see? According to these studies an African American has European ancestry. Come on gimme a break. On the other hand, of course I have no Celtic heritage, not even cultural. I agree that modern Iberians are not 100% culturally Celtic. The problem is that they brag about as direct descendants of the Celts. In fact contradict the story, as we all know that the Celts who lived in Spain were annihilated in the battle of Numancia. That's all I want to externalize. Best regards.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Hi sparkey. Exactly these studies are ambiguous and based on them no one can assert his alleged lineage, so a Cherokee is a Cherokee, an Irishman is an Irishman, and one Iberian is just an Iberian. This information is an excerpt from a BBC television program. “You've seen it on television and read about in the newspapers, and it makes you think twice. The head of Harvard University's African-American Studies departmenthttp://www.disabilityscoop.com/2011/09/28/states-millions-employment/14131/takes some DNA tests and is startled to learn that both his paternal and maternal lines are European, and that he has as much European ancestry as African. An adoptee who always thought her family originated from South America takes a test and is pleased to learn that she's of Native American ancestry.” Can you see? According to these studies an African American has European ancestry. Come on gimme a break. On the other hand, of course I have no Celtic heritage, not even cultural. I agree that modern Iberians are not 100% culturally Celtic. The problem is that they brag about as direct descendants of the Celts. In fact contradict the story, as we all know that the Celts who lived in Spain were annihilated in the battle of Numancia. That's all I want to externalize. Best regards.

Sorry, but only a percentage of CELTIBERIANS were eliminated (a significant amount but not all) at the battle of Numancia. The Celts as a whole survived in large numbers after that clash. At high point, Celts populated 2/3 to 3/4 of the Iberian Peninsula. The Celtiberians, who settled the central east, were only one branch of the Celts in Iberia. The west was nearly fully populated by Celtic and Proto-Celtic tribes.

Celtic identity has survived very nicely in Galicia, N. Portugal, Astrurias and even Cantabria and parts of Leon. In fact, Gallaic, the ancient Celtic language of Galicia and N. Portugal, is currently being resurrected with support from the Celtic League of Galicia.

BTW, no one is bragging about being Celtic. However, many Iberians have every right to claim a Celtic ethnic identity. The historical, archaeological and linguistic record is most clear; Iberia was one of the most Celtic areas of Europe, with population levels nearly as high as ancient Gaul.

 

[Wilhelm]

Hi sparkey. Exactly these studies are ambiguous and based on them no one can assert his alleged lineage, so a Cherokee is a Cherokee, an Irishman is an Irishman, and one Iberian is just an Iberian. This information is an excerpt from a BBC television program. “You've seen it on television and read about in the newspapers, and it makes you think twice. The head of Harvard University's African-American Studies department takes some DNA tests and is startled to learn that both his paternal and maternal lines are European, and that he has as much European ancestry as African. An adoptee who always thought her family originated from South America takes a test and is pleased to learn that she's of Native American ancestry.” Can you see? According to these studies an African American has European ancestry. Come on gimme a break. On the other hand, of course I have no Celtic heritage, not even cultural. I agree that modern Iberians are not 100% culturally Celtic. The problem is that they brag about as direct descendants of the Celts. In fact contradict the story, as we all know that the Celts who lived in Spain were annihilated in the battle of Numancia. That's all I want to externalize. Best regards.

What the hell are you talking about ? The people of Numancia were just one of the hundreds of tribes of the Celtiberians. And not all celts of Iberia were Celtiberians. Stop embarassing yourself please.

 

[Atilla]

Sorry still I'm not a believer. Refusing to engage the Numantines, who had fought so desperately in the past, Scipio sought to defeat them through starvation. Eventually, as their hunger increased, envoys were sent to Scipio, asking if they would be treated with moderation if they surrendered, pleading that they had fought for their women and children, and the freedom of their country. But Scipio would accept only deditio. Hearing this demand for absolute submission, the Numantines, "who were previously savage in temper because of their absolute freedom and quite unaccustomed to obey the orders of others, and were now wilder than ever and beside themselves by reason of their hardships," slew their own ambassadors. In 133 BC, after eight months of siege, the starving population was reduced to cannibalism and, filthy and foul smelling, compelled to surrender. But, "such was the love of liberty and of valour which existed in this small barbarian town," relates Appian, that many chose to kill themselves rather than capitulate. Families poisoned themselves, weapons were burned, and the beleaguered town set ablaze. There had been only about eight-thousand fighting men when the war began; half that number survived to garrison Numantia. Some of the pitiable survivors were chosen for Scipio's triumph, the others were sold as slaves and the town RAZED TO THE GROUND, the territory divided among its neighbors. Still, there was resistance. In 26-25 BC, the Cantabrian War was fought in the mountains of northern Spain, the first year of the campaign led by Augustus, himself. In celebration of victory, the doors of the Temple of Janus, traditionally kept open in times of war, were closed for only the fourth time in the long history of Rome. But the gesture was premature. The Cantabrians revolted again in 22 BC and, although they were defeated, "Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were WIPED OUT."

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Sorry still I'm not a believer. Refusing to engage the Numantines, who had fought so desperately in the past, Scipio sought to defeat them through starvation. Eventually, as their hunger increased, envoys were sent to Scipio, asking if they would be treated with moderation if they surrendered, pleading that they had fought for their women and children, and the freedom of their country. But Scipio would accept only deditio. Hearing this demand for absolute submission, the Numantines, "who were previously savage in temper because of their absolute freedom and quite unaccustomed to obey the orders of others, and were now wilder than ever and beside themselves by reason of their hardships," slew their own ambassadors. In 133 BC, after eight months of siege, the starving population was reduced to cannibalism and, filthy and foul smelling, compelled to surrender. But, "such was the love of liberty and of valour which existed in this small barbarian town," relates Appian, that many chose to kill themselves rather than capitulate. Families poisoned themselves, weapons were burned, and the beleaguered town set ablaze. There had been only about eight-thousand fighting men when the war began; half that number survived to garrison Numantia. Some of the pitiable survivors were chosen for Scipio's triumph, the others were sold as slaves and the town RAZED TO THE GROUND, the territory divided among its neighbors. Still, there was resistance. In 26-25 BC, the Cantabrian War was fought in the mountains of northern Spain, the first year of the campaign led by Augustus, himself. In celebration of victory, the doors of the Temple of Janus, traditionally kept open in times of war, were closed for only the fourth time in the long history of Rome. But the gesture was premature. The Cantabrians revolted again in 22 BC and, although they were defeated, "Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were WIPED OUT."

Inaccurate, to put it mildly. The Gallaecians, Lusitanians (at the very least, Proto-Celtic) and Astures were hardly wiped out by the Romans. And then you had the Celtici in Southern Portugal. There is nothing to discuss.

 

[Carlos]

Spain has always opted for the Iberian, made ​​us unique, we had done great deeds for the world, and Celtic was to relate to other parts of Europe, it was not necessary, was to extol or celtíbera Iberian blood, something new other than others. Today everything has changed and Spain can afford to take out of the closet and hang the rags Celtic on the clothesline for everyone to see.

 

[Wilhelm]

Sorry still I'm not a believer. Refusing to engage the Numantines, who had fought so desperately in the past, Scipio sought to defeat them through starvation. Eventually, as their hunger increased, envoys were sent to Scipio, asking if they would be treated with moderation if they surrendered, pleading that they had fought for their women and children, and the freedom of their country. But Scipio would accept only deditio. Hearing this demand for absolute submission, the Numantines, "who were previously savage in temper because of their absolute freedom and quite unaccustomed to obey the orders of others, and were now wilder than ever and beside themselves by reason of their hardships," slew their own ambassadors. In 133 BC, after eight months of siege, the starving population was reduced to cannibalism and, filthy and foul smelling, compelled to surrender. But, "such was the love of liberty and of valour which existed in this small barbarian town," relates Appian, that many chose to kill themselves rather than capitulate. Families poisoned themselves, weapons were burned, and the beleaguered town set ablaze. There had been only about eight-thousand fighting men when the war began; half that number survived to garrison Numantia. Some of the pitiable survivors were chosen for Scipio's triumph, the others were sold as slaves and the town RAZED TO THE GROUND, the territory divided among its neighbors. Still, there was resistance. In 26-25 BC, the Cantabrian War was fought in the mountains of northern Spain, the first year of the campaign led by Augustus, himself. In celebration of victory, the doors of the Temple of Janus, traditionally kept open in times of war, were closed for only the fourth time in the long history of Rome. But the gesture was premature. The Cantabrians revolted again in 22 BC and, although they were defeated, "Not many of the Cantabri were taken prisoner, for when they saw they had lost all hope of freedom, they lost all desire to preserve their lives either. Some set fire to their forts and cut their own throats, others willingly remained with their companions and died in the flames, while others took poison in the sight of all. In this way the great majority and the fiercest among the tribesmen were WIPED OUT."

Seems like you have never seen a map of Iberia in those Celtic times, Numantia was just a town, practically two-thirds of iberia was Celtic speaking:

 

[Wilhelm]

No matter how hard you try to "wipe out" the celtic populations of Iberia, genetically there is already a confirmed communality all along the Atlantic countries, if you see the Autosomal results of the intra-european runs at Eurogenes Biogeographic Project for the North-Atlantic component :

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[Knovas]

And the genetic stock was surely very homogeneous in all Iberia. Actually Catalans get very high (if not the highest) North Atlantic scores at Euroegenes, wich is clearly related with the Celts. Easy to infer by inspection of the averages found in the UK and Ireland. Catalans and others get more than 56%, not a miracle of course.

 

[zanipolo]

And the genetic stock was surely very homogeneous in all Iberia. Actually Catalans get very high (if not the highest) North Atlantic scores at Euroegenes, wich is clearly related with the Celts. Easy to infer by inspection of the averages found in the UK and Ireland. Catalans and others get more than 56%, not a miracle of course.

your comments are confusing...are you saying that because catalans have a high North Atlantic score , then they are related to the celts and that low north atlantic scores are not?. If catalans where celts , then why the iberian language and not the celtic ( castilian/leonese) language , which became the national language?

so does that mean that the "home " of the celts in the alps was not its initail starting place.

 

[Knovas]

I'm not telling "Catalans" (very ancient) were Celts, just saying they must had the same genetic stock. Is what genetic results show. The reasons for this can be very diverse...