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Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
Bruh on qpAdm and on G25 Albanians literally shift towards Anatolia/Armenia by 10-20%. Cypriots also cluster with many Jews by coincidence on PCA, according to your logic Cypriots are either 100% Jews or Jews are 100% Cypriot. There seems to be a lot of people online that think clustering with someone on PCA from 2-3000 years ago means high ancestry from them.
Click to expand...

If PCA shows overlap and you have Y-DNA to anchor your PCA to ancient Dna samples chances are you are related. But feel free to diverge in whatever scenarios that make you happy [emoji2]


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@Jovialis

I suppose you can easily read French:
here under a rather light but traditionally accepted definition of vaccination:
Administration d'un vaccin ayant pour effet de conférer une immunité active, spécifique d'une maladie, rendant l'organisme réfractaire à cette maladie.
 
Jovialis said:
Something I find interesting is the fact that many Albanians also share my same haplogroup group which goes back to the EBA. Perhaps brought in with the Yamnaya migration into the Balkans?
Click to expand...

What haplo do you have?


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blevins13 said:
What haplo do you have?


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Click to expand...

R1b-PF7562, it's quite low in percentage among Albanians but overall Albanians have the highest of this Y-DNA subclade among others. Interesting indeed, and i do agree, it came with Yamnaya likely.
 
MOESAN said:
@Jovialis
I suppose you can easily read French:
here under a rather light but traditionally accepted definition of vaccination:
Administration d'un vaccin ayant pour effet de conférer une immunité active, spécifique d'une maladie, rendant l'organisme réfractaire à cette maladie.
Click to expand...
My wife reads French, so I had her translate it for me to not mess up the interpretation.
CDC shows mRNA vaccine are a type of vaccine. I don't see why it makes a difference if it is traditional or not. I'm triple vaxxed with pfizer nobody I know had any of the lunatic side effects like infertility. People had healthy babies in the interm. Besides diseases mutate, as covid has, as things like the flu have. At any rate, it is not about the word of God. Is about trusting in expert opinion of people that are professionals in a field. Not all are infallible, hence the need for concensus of experts.
 
Hawk said:
R1b-PF7562, it's quite low in percentage among Albanians but overall Albanians have the highest of this Y-DNA subclade among others. Interesting indeed, and i do agree, it came with Yamnaya likely.
Click to expand...

Thanks,

What I meant was of the people who get it are mostly Albanians. Though some Italians too.
 
Pax Augusta said:
The "fits" and distances are all very off, your results are totally inaccurate, because the Albanians are part of the Balkan cluster, not the Italian cluster. The distance in a two-way model is of fundamental importance. Otherwise, doing the opposite of you, I could model Tuscans as if Tuscans were Albanians with some Belgian, English or whatever ancestor. Moreover, with far better fits than yours.



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.5682% / 0.02568225[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]86.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BelgianC[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.2056% / 0.02205580[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]76.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Bearn[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Provence[/TD]




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.2698% / 0.02269837[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]68.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]31.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Provence[/TD]


[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"][/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.6603% / 0.02660280[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]92.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]7.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]English_Cornwall[/TD]

With the Greeks, not surprisingly, the Albanians improve fit and distances.




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB230
Distance: 2.1749% / 0.02174892[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB220
Distance: 2.5650% / 0.02565026[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]81.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]9.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB213
Distance: 2.1059% / 0.02105851[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]40.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]27.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_South_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB212
Distance: 2.4994% / 0.02499420[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]53.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]19.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB202
Distance: 1.7753% / 0.01775333[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Trabzon[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB191
Distance: 2.4030% / 0.02402976[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]52.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL98
Distance: 2.7595% / 0.02759511[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]48.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]43.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL9
Distance: 2.2279% / 0.02227851[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]54.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]38.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL82
Distance: 1.8462% / 0.01846230[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]66.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]7.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL29
Distance: 1.4327% / 0.01432730[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]72.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]24.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL17
Distance: 2.2233% / 0.02223268[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]25.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]13.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL12
Distance: 3.3226% / 0.03322619[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]82.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]






Using "Macedonian", a south Slavic source, in place of "Polish".



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB230
Distance: 2.2943% / 0.02294323[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]84.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB220
Distance: 2.5710% / 0.02571026[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]63.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB213
Distance: 2.1974% / 0.02197376[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]56.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]12.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB212
Distance: 2.4994% / 0.02499420[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]53.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]19.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB202
Distance: 1.7947% / 0.01794739[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]39.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]34.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]18.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Trabzon[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB191
Distance: 2.3554% / 0.02355419[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]50.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL98
Distance: 2.7595% / 0.02759511[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]48.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]43.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL9
Distance: 2.2527% / 0.02252746[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]45.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL82
Distance: 1.9862% / 0.01986151[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]89.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL29
Distance: 1.4077% / 0.01407719[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]89.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL17
Distance: 2.2233% / 0.02223268[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]25.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]13.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL12
Distance: 3.3226% / 0.03322619[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]82.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]
Click to expand...

Iron Age samples from Albania seem to overlap with Modern Tuscans. I see that the fit is not the best, it was just a experiment.
 
It could be that they occupy different spaces on the Z-axis of a 3D PCA than the 2D PCA would lead us to believe perhaps.
 
Hawk said:
R1b-PF7562, it's quite low in percentage among Albanians but overall Albanians have the highest of this Y-DNA subclade among others. Interesting indeed, and i do agree, it came with Yamnaya likely.
Click to expand...

Yes probably one of the first waves.


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Dushman said:
But IA Albania and IA Croatia are very homogeneous groups compared to IA Bulgaria and IA Macedonia.

As I’ve told you many times, you need to find a new name for your personal Illyrians. Illyrians are in Albania. Proto-Illyrians might have been only the ones in Croatia.
Click to expand...

The guy is outright pathological at this point. He straight up wants to change the definitions of words because it doesn't suit him.

This has nothing to do with science anymore. He just doesn't want to admit that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians.
 
Riverman said:
That comment is ridiculous, because
a) Pottery was far more important at that time, having a meaning for the people which goes far beyond consumption, like tradition, spritiuality, distinction etc.
b) Channelled Ware in particular was a complete package, they even brought their own, unique and completely new weapons and customs, among which cremation in larger cemeteries in urns and with scattered ashes with them.

That argument of "pots not people" crowd in New Archaeology was wrong 5 decades ago and its still wrong. If its just one type of artefact, maybe, but if its complete package, they don't migrate and expand without carriers, without people.

Most of the time when people like you go ad hominem against me, they can't even properly define what exactly is wrong. They just don't like the result.
Click to expand...

What result don't we like??? The result that Iron Age Albanians are literally a stone's throw away from modern Albanians?

You type "Chanelled Ware" on Google and there's like 2 obscure studies and 100 Riverman posts. That's how important it is. It's not even relevant enough to have a Wikipedia page.

You've legitimately written more about "Chanelled Ware" than the actual archeologists who found them.
 
Riverman said:
Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni pushed, imho, Proto-Greeks into the Aegean. They heavily influenced Gáva itself, mainly through the intermediate Wietenberg-Noua fusion in Transylvania. Psenichevo is imho simply a mix of Gáva (either directly from the North East, like their pottery looks like it) or indirectly via Belegis II-Gáva, which reached the Lower Danube as welll. They simply mixed with the locals, which were pretty much Aegean like still, and got additional steppe influences from the Cimmerians and Scythians, as well as local and other Pannonian influences (Brnjica, Encrusted Pottery especially).

The archaeological connections are pretty clear, going from the North Carpathians to the Aegean, whereas the J-L283 dominated Illyrian zone was going from the Upper Adriatic, Bell Beakers-Tumulus culture-Italian Apennine down. So these were simply two different cultural spheres, with different connections, dominated by different haplogroups.
Click to expand...

So according to you where were the proto-Greeks residing before being pushed, and when this event happened.


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enter_tain said:
I don't understand how Riverman doesn't exhaust himself writing a bunch of bullshit all the time. This dude has gone so far off the deep end with his "theories", there's no connection to reality anymore.

Watch there's another Riverman in the year 4000, arguing that the United States, Canada, UK, etc... didn't actually exist. It was all the "Starbucks Culture" because they found Starbucks cups in all these places.
Click to expand...

It seems that he is on something good. He has already solved all the Balkan mysteries, including the origin of Mycenaean, where also Lazaridis did not dare to go further.


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I think this lends some support to my model of BA South Italy being modeled as a steppe/Minoan two-way (similar to Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Celmente et al. 2021), with contributions from the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean on a sporadic cline.
 
Jovialis said:
I think this lends some support to my model of BA South Italy being modeled as a steppe/Minoan two-way (similar to Lazaridis et al. 2017 and Celmente et al. 2021), with contributions from the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean on a sporadic cline.
Click to expand...
https://imgur.com/CmyH381
 
Riverman said:
Bell Beakers were considered by the "pots not people" crowd just a "social happening" and "trade network phenomenon". What is the reality? In some regions they eliminated within their sphere nearly 95 % of the local male lineages and replaced them. The autosomal replacement varies, but is in one of the highest ballparks every recorded in prehistory.
Yes, they did adopt elements into their package, before swarming out, largely. But here too: Where you got the whole cultural package, they did replace, with a few exceptions.

And I highly doubt the conclusion of Reich, its simply impossible. Even if the PIE would have been sitting somewhere around the Caucausus, that there was no penetration of Anatolia before the Iron Age, nothing recognisable at all, is simply not possible. I can only attribute it, if he presents any sort of data in that direction, as bad sampling strategy.
I'm particularly curious about Cernavoda into Troy. Whether they tested those groups and what's the outcome. If they didn't test it, that's like talking about "Yamnaya expansion" while ignoring Sredny Stog and the Lower Don cultural centre in the period before. Its just missing the point, either deliberately or by accident...........
Click to expand...


There is indeed an issue with how geneticists access and deploy historical arguments. That genetic evidence can provide clues to unrecorded historical events is surely one of the key potential uses of ancient DNA, but how can we ensure that such a clue is historically meaningful? If ancient DNA can lead to the discovery or even the solution of unknown human events—migration, war, settlement, conquest, etc.—it's essential to make sure that genetic data is interpreted according to scenarios that make sense historically and archaeologically, and often this requires foremost a greater sensitivity toward what is referred to as the “identity” of an excavated site. In addition, a certain acquaintance with how ancient populations may have been structured socially, ethnically, and politically is required. It's of significance if what we regard as an intrusive genetic element appears in a common tomb or in an elaborate elite burial. In fact, the categories used by historians, archaeologists, and anthropologists when they examine ancient remains can be complex and probably not be easily assigned to a biological context.
 
enter_tain said:
You type "Chanelled Ware" on Google and there's like 2 obscure studies and 100 Riverman posts. That's how important it is. It's not even relevant enough to have a Wikipedia page.

You've legitimately written more about "Chanelled Ware" than the actual archeologists who found them.
Click to expand...

Part of the reason for this is that the actual regional cultures run by different names and many papers are not in English. To complicate things even more, the regional cultures themselves run by different names in different nations. Like one of the main Pre-G?va cultures of the area between Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and Ukraine was Suciu de Sus. You find in Hungarian way more hits if you search for Felsőszőcs, which is the same place, just the Hungarian version.
And in English you have different names for the Pottery: G?va style, channelled pottery, pottery with channels, fluted ware, fluted pottery, pottery with cannelures, sometimes even Protovillanova or Hallstatt style, especially in the oldest articles.

Maps:
Distribution-map-of-channelled-pottery-groups-with-the-most-important-sites-mentioned-in.png


https://www.researchgate.net/public...te_Bronze_Age_and_Early_Iron_Age_Transylvania

Among experts its being widely known and its appeareance marks the beginning of a new epoch in the Balkans, because it marks the Late Bronze to Iron Age transition. Its being used to relatively date finds in stratigraphies even. And among others in the book of Kristian Kristiansen its core group of G?va being considered Proto-Thracian. A view held up by a minority, but a solid one with many researchers in the last decades.

Here another point of view on the subject, note that Fluted Ware horizon being the same as channelled ware/pottery or cannelure pottery etc. Just different names for the same phenomenon. In Bulgaria they prefer Fluted ware, for whatever reason:
The Early Iron Age comprises the period between the eleventh and the sixth centuries BC, according to the conventional chronology for Bulgarian archaeology (Fig. 2).1 The beginning of the Iron Age in Thrace is marked to a much greater extent by significant changes in the local culture than by the introduction of iron technology. It is widely accepted that there were two phases within the Early Iron Age, divided by the end of the ninth century BC.2 An additional third, late phase is assumed for some regions, for example, Northeastern Thrace, but rejected for the area south of the Central Balkan. The end of the Early Iron Age is characterised by general changes in the local cultures, among which are a sharp increase in the number of imports, novelties in burial practices, local production of wheel-made pottery, and, in many regions, urbanisation. The Early Iron Age culture developed based on that of the previous Late Bronze Age. The Late Bronze Age, or at least its later stage, is characterised by the PlovdivZimnicae-Cerkovna (PZC) complex, which was spread over nearly the whole territory of Thrace.3 The complex bordered in the northeast on Coslodgeni and in the northwest on the southeastern variant of the Central European Urnfield culture (Urnenfelderkultur); here it is called the ?Lower Danube Culture with Incrusted Pottery?.4 The Danube River divided the regions of the PZC complex and the Verbicioara and Tei cultures, although the border is not very distinct and there were probably areas on both sides of the river where these cultures met and mixed. To the west and south, the complex ends with the Rhodopes. Aegean Thrace shared the same style of handmade pottery, but also had pottery classes in the Mycenaean style.5 To the west, PZC was in contact with the Koprivlen culture, which had an affinity with the Central Balkan culture of Brnica.6 The neighbouring region, further still to the west, namely Macedonia, differed in that it had an additional class of Matt-painted pottery.7
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So at first Encrusted Pottery (which fled Tumulus culture and Channelled Ware from Pannonia) and Brnjica (which fled Channelled Ware) made their appearance. This already shows what happened: It was a multiple chain reaction event, caused by first Tumulus culture, then Channelled Ware, expanding in Pannonia and the Balkans. This also caused parts of the Sea Peoples migrations and Protovillanova in Italy being a related branch within Urnfield. In the next stage:

Within a rather short period, the PZC complex was replaced by a new pottery style. This change is considered to mark the beginning of a new period, namely the Early Iron Age, although the first iron artefacts did not appear until at least a century later. In fact, the sites that date to the first centuries of the Iron Age lack metal artefacts in general and the earliest iron objects are most often found out of context. Bronze continued to be used, as shown by European-style artefacts of the Ha A?Ha B1 period like the socket axes, but also artefacts in the Aegean style, such as trunnion axes.9 An investigation of all early iron artefacts in Thrace as well as bronze ones at the end of the Bronze Age and in the first centuries of the Early Iron Age is still pending; thus pottery is the most reliable archaeological material for following the chronological stages in the cultural development of Thrace and, together with the information from excavated grave structures, for distinguishing regional groups. The initial phase of the Early Iron Age was firstly identified with the group of incised, decorated pottery named Catalka.10 The research that followed proved that such incisions were very few on the ornamented pottery of this first stage. The fluted ware proved to be the only pottery decorated in the new style, which led to associating this stage instead with a ?horizon of the fluted ware.?11 Besides their decoration, these are also pottery types that are new to the beginning of the Early Iron Age. Few shapes of the previous PZC complex continued with the first stage of the ?Fluted ware horizon? and those which did should be considered as remnant elements. Their presence in this early stage together with the continuous development of both settlements and necropoleis are the reasons for some researchers to consider this period a transitional one between Bronze Age and Iron Age.12
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The new pottery style replaced that of the Late Bronze Age within quite a short period within the first Early Iron Age stage and kept being conservative for the entire Early Iron Age. The prototypes of the new shapes and the fluted decoration are to be found in the Urnfield cultures of the central part of Eastern Europe.19 The fluted decoration evolved first in the final stages of the Lower Danube Culture with Incrusted Pottery in the Ha A1 period, under influences from the Middle and Lower Danube.20 Slightly later it became popular over nearly all of Thrace and it is much more likely to represent a new fashion than a major migration. The reasons could be found in a general reversal of the direction of contacts in Thrace from south/southeast to northwest. It looks very probable that Thrace fell strongly under the influence of the cultures from the Carpathian basin, because of their potential to provide sufficient metal sources. This trend may even have strengthened during the time of the general crisis that hit the Eastern Mediterranean region. A similar trend is marked for the contacts of Troia ? imports from the East Mediterranean that are numerous in the Troia VI layers cease in the following layer, Troia VIIb, where they are mainly of northwestern origin.21
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They mention migration but tend to interpret it otherwise (pots no people preference). But ancient DNA already shows that E-V13 wasn't there before, but appeared in the main Channelled Ware successor, which is Psenichevo. So its ancient DNA to decide whether the massive and radical change caused by Channelled Ware as a cultural complex, which encompassed much more than just the ceramic, was a demic diffusion, even replacement event or not. But since we have many samples from the Bronze Age without E-V13, but plenty of afterwards, things are going in the right direction.

Already if looking at the massive change of the culture in all Channelled Ware affected areas, there can be no doubt it was a migration, from the archaeological point of view, but the question remains which extent. Like did a minority come in, without replacing a lot of the locals, and just spread the culture then. Or was it really a fairly massive replacement event? That's up to ancient DNA to solve this once and for all. Just like they did it with Bell Beakers.

blevins13 said:
So according to you where were the proto-Greeks residing before being pushed, and when this event happened.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
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I don't know, but considering their style and the incoming steppe push, Bulgaria/Lower Danube is likely, after they had come down from the Western steppe from MCW/Catacomb before. That's what the results of Central-Eastern European genetic profiles (according to the authors) appearing with the MBA-LBA transition in the Aegean might suggest. We need to wait for the results from those paper, like there are so many other results we know about which need forever to get published.
 
Dushman said:
As I’ve said before, pots are art and creative art influences neighbouring regions and further. Let’s focus on solid facts like yDNA and auDNA otherwise we’ll never agree.

About the models using Tuscany, modern Tuscans appear by coincidence to be the closest to IA Illyrians. The problem there stands with Polish_South because it doesn’t represent Slavic input but rather a Slavo-Daco-Celto-Scytho-Germanic input.

We know how the migration period brought many populations from the Carpathians and Pannonia down to the Balkans, either fleeing or joined the migrating/pillaging/invading tribes, which increased the pseudo-Slavic input in the Balkans.

And we know that there are Albanians (my family members included) who are genetically an “Illyrian relic” and not touched by the Northern Balkan and North East European admixture.
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Interesting! can you share their Eurogenes K13,K15 and Dodecad K12b results if you don't mind?
 
Riverman said:
Part of the reason for this is that the actual regional cultures run by different names and many papers are not in English. To complicate things even more, the regional cultures themselves run by different names in different nations. Like one of the main Pre-G�va cultures of the area between Hungary, Slovakia, Romania and Ukraine was Suciu de Sus. You find in Hungarian way more hits if you search for Felsőszőcs, which is the same place, just the Hungarian version.
And in English you have different names for the Pottery: G�va style, channelled pottery, pottery with channels, fluted ware, fluted pottery, pottery with cannelures, sometimes even Protovillanova or Hallstatt style, especially in the oldest articles.

Maps:
Distribution-map-of-channelled-pottery-groups-with-the-most-important-sites-mentioned-in.png


https://www.researchgate.net/public...te_Bronze_Age_and_Early_Iron_Age_Transylvania

Among experts its being widely known and its appeareance marks the beginning of a new epoch in the Balkans, because it marks the Late Bronze to Iron Age transition. Its being used to relatively date finds in stratigraphies even. And among others in the book of Kristian Kristiansen its core group of G�va being considered Proto-Thracian. A view held up by a minority, but a solid one with many researchers in the last decades.

Here another point of view on the subject, note that Fluted Ware horizon being the same as channelled ware/pottery or cannelure pottery etc. Just different names for the same phenomenon. In Bulgaria they prefer Fluted ware, for whatever reason:


So at first Encrusted Pottery (which fled Tumulus culture and Channelled Ware from Pannonia) and Brnjica (which fled Channelled Ware) made their appearance. This already shows what happened: It was a multiple chain reaction event, caused by first Tumulus culture, then Channelled Ware, expanding in Pannonia and the Balkans. This also caused parts of the Sea Peoples migrations and Protovillanova in Italy being a related branch within Urnfield. In the next stage:






They mention migration but tend to interpret it otherwise (pots no people preference). But ancient DNA already shows that E-V13 wasn't there before, but appeared in the main Channelled Ware successor, which is Psenichevo. So its ancient DNA to decide whether the massive and radical change caused by Channelled Ware as a cultural complex, which encompassed much more than just the ceramic, was a demic diffusion, even replacement event or not. But since we have many samples from the Bronze Age without E-V13, but plenty of afterwards, things are going in the right direction.

Already if looking at the massive change of the culture in all Channelled Ware affected areas, there can be no doubt it was a migration, from the archaeological point of view, but the question remains which extent. Like did a minority come in, without replacing a lot of the locals, and just spread the culture then. Or was it really a fairly massive replacement event? That's up to ancient DNA to solve this once and for all. Just like they did it with Bell Beakers.



I don't know, but considering their style and the incoming steppe push, Bulgaria/Lower Danube is likely, after they had come down from the Western steppe from MCW/Catacomb before. That's what the results of Central-Eastern European genetic profiles (according to the authors) appearing with the MBA-LBA transition in the Aegean might suggest. We need to wait for the results from those paper, like there are so many other results we know about which need forever to get published.
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Good explanation, IMO giving it a generalized label for now as Eastern Urnfield Cultures is more correct to differentiate from Western Urnfield (Celtic, Villanova and Central/Western Europe variants), since similar cultures in Carpatho-Danubian hemisphere belonging to Eastern Urnfield hemisphere used different techniques like channeling, flutes, stamped ornamentation, incised etc, etc. I don't know the relationship of these techniques, their difference needs to be treated as a variable within the whole package differentation of material culture.

Personally if you ask me, because there was a confusion somewhere else, Albanian archaeologists have beautifully explained that Glasinac-Mat and Trebeniste shouldn't be treated as exactly the same culture, but they should be treated as two cultures which formed the historical Illyrians with a prevailing importance on Glasinac-Mat complex.

According to Frano Prendi and Yugoslav archaeologists Matt-Painted Pottery Culture from South Albania had an Early/Middle Bronze Age influence from Belotic-Bela Crkva which in turn if i am not wrong is considered as precursor of Glasinac Culture. Channeled-Ware or as Albanian archaeologists label it Kanellure might be the Bronze to Iron Age influence or as Frano Prendi generalized them into as Pannonian Urnfield influence, but he thought they came by sea, somewhere from Liburnia directly landing in South Albania and down to Greece. His detailed explanation shouldn't matter, or it shouldn't be really an issue even if the trajectory he proposed is not totally correct, but he did mention the enrichment of iron weapons, flame shaped spears etc, etc.
 
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