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Research about R1b-U152: probably Roman (and italic) origin, not Gallic

I had only posted some of figures from France above, here are some more. I've tended to ignore any with small N count (<30)

Alpes De Haute Provence -- n = 31
  • U152 = 12.9%
  • U106 = 12.9%
  • L21 = 19.4%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 29%

North Central France -- n = 91
  • U152 = 14.3%
  • U106 = 7.7%
  • L21 = 9.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 17.6%

South Central France -- n = 89
  • U152 = 16.9%
  • U106 = 3.4%
  • L21 = 4.5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 22.5%

France South -- n = 38
  • U152 = 10.5%
  • U106 = 7.9%
  • L21 = 7.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 28.9%

South East France -- n = 45
  • U152 = 11.1%
  • U106 = --/--
  • L21 = 11.1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 26.7%

South West France -- n = 83
  • U152 = 10.8%
  • U106 = 3.6%
  • L21 = 7.2% (M222 = 1.2%)
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 31.3%

Vaucluse (Upstream Rhone) -- n = 61
  • U152 = 14.8%
  • U106 = 6.6%
  • L21 = 8.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 29.5%

Var (Coastal, E Of Rhone) -- n = 68
  • U152 = 19.1%
  • U106 = 5.9%
  • L21 = 2.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 35.3%

North West France -- n = 115
  • U152 = 6.1%
  • U106 = 3.5%
  • L21 = 40%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 20.9%
 
Here's the map from that study for U152 -- could only post it now that I've gone over 10 posts.

U152-S28-poE-CT.png
 
bertrand said:
I'm trying to study the Franks versus Alamans mix
Can someone confirm?
thanks
Click to expand...

R1b-U152 was only the most frequent haplogroup in Alsace, in a study of France. Alsace is not really settled by French but is ethnic German, Alamannish. R1b-U152 has a very close relationship with Alamanni distribution (present-day Alsace, Baden-Württemberg, Switzerland, Swabia region of Bavaria). R1b-U152 should not be viewed as an Alamanni genetic marker, however, apart from Corsica, Switzerland and Northern Italy, Alamanni regions appear to have the highest levels of R1b-U152.

Note that there is also a curious spot in the province of Hainaut in Belgium and Nord in Northern France, a region historically linked to the Free County of Burgandy aka the Burgundian Circle.
 
Last edited:
in the map on post #122

It seems to me that the northern "germanic" swiss have low U152, while its interesting that the Ticino area in south east Switzerland is high. An area through history which was not occupied by the swiss or italians or germans, but the Raeti Grisons who where the last to join with the Swiss and their conferation of a republic.
Looks also like lago maggiore area.
 
Just to add Spain into the mix, I see from reading over the post there were some comments regarding L21 vs. U152 in spain, here are details from the R-M269 study recently published

Andalusia, Sevilla -- n = 127
  • U152 = 0.8%
  • U106 = 0.8%
  • L21 = 0.8%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 52%

Cantabria, Santander -- n = 131
  • U152 = 3.1%
  • U106 = 1.5%
  • L21 = 5.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 37.4%

East Spain C (Catalonia?) -- n = 177
  • U152 = 5.6%
  • U106 = 2.3%
  • L21 = 8.5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 49.7%

East Spain V (Valencia?) -- n = 168
  • U152 = 7.1%
  • U106 = 2.4%
  • L21 = 7.1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 47.6%

Valencian Community, Valencia -- n = 113
  • U152 = 6.2%
  • U106 = 0.9%
  • L21 = 0.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 32.7%

Castille And Leon -- n = 83
  • U152 = 2.4%
  • U106 = 3.6%
  • L21 = 2.4%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 47%
 
Forgot Portugal.

Central Portugal -- n = 121
  • U152 = 9.1%
  • U106 = 0.8%
  • L21 = 5.8%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 38%

North Portugal -- n = 148
  • U152 = 3.4%
  • U106 = 7.4%
  • L21 = 4.7%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 34.5%

Lisbon -- n = 100
  • U152 = 3%
  • U106 = 7%
  • L21 = 3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 44%

South Portugal -- n = 31
  • U152 = 12.9%
  • U106 = 7.4%
  • L21 = 4.7%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 34.5%
 
Fascinating, especially the data on the Iberian penninsula.
 
Taranis said:
Fascinating, especially the data on the Iberian penninsula.
Click to expand...

It's a real pity they didn't try testing for additional P312 clades. Obviously they probably didn't know about Z196 but if they had tested for M153 and L176 it would have given a fascinating insight into the very high percentages P312* in Iberia and France.
 
Dorianfinder said:
Would be nice to see a reference to these figures, most have been placed in an xl. doc. by Tibor Fehér, anybody who's interested can download them here: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=results under the title U152 Frequencies Worldwide by Tibor Fehér *NEW AUGUST 2011*
Click to expand...

The peopling of Europe and the cautionary tale of Y chromosome lineage R-M269 -- Data Supplement

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044/suppl/DC1
 
Thank you very much for this map dubhthach.
It is so different from the map provided by Maciamo in august. This new map seems to infer a clearly italic background for S28.
In fact, if we assume a kurgan origin for S28 up the danube valley, it seems that the stream of immigrant arrived in Hungary and then split in two branches: one going through Slovakia, north of Bohemia and toward the elbe and Frankfurt; the other south through slovakia and northern Italy.
I read in a book detailing the history of Alsace, that the first kurgans (tumuli) are built in northern Alsace around 1600BC; the book says these tumuli people clearly come from Swabia and Bohemia.
 
bertrand said:
Thank you very much for this map dubhthach.
It is so different from the map provided by Maciamo in august. This new map seems to infer a clearly italic background for S28.
Click to expand...

All migrations comming from Unetice spread S28. Unetice culture is not really Celtic, the Terramare and Villanovian culture that spread Italic language also have their roots in Unetice culture.
 
Thanks Dubhthach
The L21 data are quite interesting. I would expect more L21 in West Germany, Northern Spain and Northern France but less in East Spain, French Alps and western switzerland as they have no direct conection with the British islands. Also southern Italy has a little bit more L21 than Northern Italy.
It looks like L21 spread in the Bronze age Wessex and Armorique (Brittany) culture but maybe also in the Rhone civilisation (south est France, Switzerland). U152 came much later with Unetice and Tumulus culture first, then with Halstat, La Tène cultures, and eventually with the Romans
 
What surprises me is actually U152 in Iberia. In many places, U152 is more common than L21. I wonder if the hypothesis that L21 is linked to the Atlantic Bronze Age needs to be dumped.
 
Taranis said:
What surprises me is actually U152 in Iberia. In many places, U152 is more common than L21. I wonder if the hypothesis that L21 is linked to the Atlantic Bronze Age needs to be dumped.
Click to expand...

U152 in Portugal could be Suebic like U106.
The Atlantic bronze age might just a cultural complex like the Urnfields but not an ethnic one. However, the Armorique (Brittany) and Wessex (England) bronze age cultures could be related (same origin) according to Historian Jacques Briard.
 
spongetaro said:
U152 in Portugal could be Suebic like U106.
Click to expand...

It could be, but I have also contemplated on the possibility that it stems from the Celtici.

The Atlantic bronze age might just a cultural complex like the Urnfields but not an ethnic one. However, the Armorique (Brittany) and Wessex (England) bronze age cultures could be related (same origin) according to Historian Jacques Briard.
Click to expand...

Well, the Atlantic Bronze Age was almost certainly NOT an ethnic one, anyways, given how you have a multitude of ethnic groups which later resided in it in addition to the Celtic peoples (Aquitanians/Basques, Iberians, Lusitanians, Tartessians). The problem is that the Iberian penninsula was very heterogenous. I have even contemplated that even the various Celtic ethnicities in Iberia didn't have much in common with each other.

Nonetheless, I agree about Armorique and Wessex, however. They are good candidates for predominant carriers of L21.
 
spongetaro said:
Thanks Dubhthach
The L21 data are quite interesting. I would expect more L21 in West Germany, Northern Spain and Northern France but less in East Spain, French Alps and western switzerland as they have no direct conection with the British islands. Also southern Italy has a little bit more L21 than Northern Italy.
It looks like L21 spread in the Bronze age Wessex and Armorique (Brittany) culture but maybe also in the Rhone civilisation (south est France, Switzerland). U152 came much later with Unetice and Tumulus culture first, then with Halstat, La Tène cultures, and eventually with the Romans
Click to expand...

Well the slightly higher rate in South Italy could be due to fact that the sample population is bigger then sample from North and Central Italy combined. I think to get honest figures you really need large sample populations otherwise you get the situation that can be seen with Austria (N=18). Of course there is also fact that Southern Italy had a history of Norman control given high levels of L21 in NW France it wouldn't surprise me if some of "South Italian" L21 comes from this source (pure speculation on my part)

They also have a map of L21 but I think they made a balls of it. unlike the maps for U152 and U106 they used a different scale. As a result you can see U152 areas that are 5-8% but not the L21 (as the scale only starts at 8%)

L21-S145-poE-CT.png


verus U106

U106-S21-poE-CT.png


The highest STR varience in L21 is generally in North East France/Western Germany. The guys doing language phylogenetics put the spilt between Irish and Welsh at around 900BC, spilt with Gaulish is probably earlier.

The "Lackan spearhead" which is one of oldest Iron spearheads recovered in Ireland has been dated to between 811 and 673 BC by radio-carbon dating some of the ash fragments in the spear socket.
 
ached to recent report on R-M269 had the following U152 figures for Switzerland:


Switzerland Southcentral -- n = 32
  • U152 = 34.4%
  • U106 = 15.6%
  • L21 = --/--
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 9.4%

Switzerland (Lower Rhone Valley) -- n = 51
  • U152 = 15.7%
  • U106 = 11.8%
  • L21 = 2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 7.8%

Switzerland Northeast -- n = 32
  • U152 = 15.6%
  • U106 = 18.8%
  • L21 = 3.1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 12.5%

Switzerland Northwest -- n = 27
  • U152 = 22.2%
  • U106 = 3.7%
  • L21 = 7.4%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 18.5%

Switzerland (Upper Rhone Valley) -- n = 33
  • U152 = 6.1%
  • U106 = 12.1%
  • L21 = --/--
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 6.1%

Neighbouring countries starting with Germany:

Germany South -- n = 91
  • U152 = 8.8%
  • U106 = 19.8%
  • L21 = 2.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 9.9%

Germany West -- n = 100
  • U152 = 14%
  • U106 = 24%
  • L21 = 1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 10%

Germany North -- n = 64
  • U152 = 6.3%
  • U106 = 18.8%
  • L21 = 3.1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 3.1%

Germany East -- n = 47
  • U152 = 8.5%
  • U106 = 25.5%
  • L21 = 2.1%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = --/--

Austria -- n = 18
  • U152 = --/--
  • U106 = 22.2%
  • L21 = 5.6%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = --/--

East France -- n = 80
  • U152 = 22.5%
  • U106 = 15%
  • L21 = 5%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 7.5%

Bouches Du Rhone (At Mouth) -- n = 207
  • U152 = 16.9%
  • U106 = 8.2%
  • L21 = 6.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 32.4%

North France -- n = 68
  • U152 = 17.6%
  • U106 = 8.8%
  • L21 = 10.3%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 17.6%


Italy North -- n = 124
  • U152 = 26.6%
  • U106 = 5.6%
  • L21 = 0.8%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 4.8%

Central Italy -- n = 115
  • U152 = 19.1%
  • U106 = 2.6%
  • L21 = 0.9%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 2.6%

South Italy -- n = 252
  • U152 = 8.7%
  • U106 = 2.8%
  • L21 = 1.2%
  • P312 (ex L21/U152) = 7.1%
[/QUOTE]

I haven't checked the data for the other countries, but this is not the complete data set provided by Busby et al for Italy. (see the supplementary data link that was previously posted in this thread)

Busby et al did not collect data for northern Italy. They used two studies done by other researchers: Myres et al, and Capelli et al.

The 26.6% for U-152 (as total percentage of the population) that you posted is from Myres et al, and was taken solely from a sample in Mantova, in the center of Emilia-Romagna.

However, Busby also provides data from a Capelli et al study of a sample from Bergamo, Lombardia, where U-152 constitutes 43.1% of the population. (In comparison with the figure of 34.4% in Sarnen, central Switzerland.) In this area of Italy (Lombardia), the total figure for R-M269 is 70.8%.

Any analysis of U-152 in northern Italy would have to encompass both studies.

FWIW, I believe that Maciamo's data already includes both studies.

The Corsica data is also informative, and in this instance, (central Corsica), the data was collected by Busby et al. In this most isolated area of Corsica, they found 41.7% U-152, and a total for R-M269 of 58.3%. Corsica was settled from Liguria and coastal northern Tuscany. (Indeed, the Corsican dialect is related to Tuscan).

As for central Italy, the figure you cite of 19% is from the Capelli et al study and was collected in Latina, (just south of Rome).

However, a data sample in the Busby et al supplementary data that was taken in Perugia, Umbria, for the Myres et al study (also normally considered central Italy) shows 32.4% for U-152, and 52.9% for total M-269. For some unfathomable reason, this is listed as the "Italy" sample, but the coordinates are clear.

This indicates to me that U-152 levels can go from 43% to over 30% all the way to Rome; more pervasive and over a far greater area than in Switzerland. Indeed, Busby's data shows that it reaches 15% even in Catania, Sicily.
 
I'd like to add that the Busby et al study did not include samples from Liguria or western Emilia, where we would expect to see high levels of U-152.

Studies of R1b in northern Italy do exist and one could estimate U-152 levels. The Garfagnana (NWTuscany) has levels of 76%, one area of the Trentino 73%, and Modena in Western Emilia, has 67%. A U-152 level of 50-60% would bring the level in the Garfagnana to perhaps 46%.


I have yet to see any reason to connect U-152 to any Germanic tribe, Alemanni, Gothic, Lombard, or otherwise.

The highest levels are in Italy, not Switzerland or southern Germany. (I am currently an agnostic as far as Y-STR variance is concerned, and its connection to geographical origin.)

Indeed, it is high all the way to Rome, and at respectable levels even in Puglia and Sicily.

Central Corsica and coastal Tuscany are also hardly hotbeds of mass Germanic movement.

Indeed, there is very little historical or archaeological evidence of the movement of Germanic peoples into Italy sufficient to change the basic genetic landscape of the peninsula. I have seen no claim by any archaeologist or historian that the Ostrogoths and Franks were anything other than a very thin layer of nobles and military commanders, and even the Lombards, who did move as family groups, were relatively small in number.

Paul the Deacon , a Lombard monk whose writings are based on the only contemporary account of the Lombards, puts the number of their warriors at around 22,000. Adding family members would only bring the figure to perhaps 100,000, at a time when even the most conservative estimates place the population of the Italian peninsula at 2.5-3 million. I have seen no numbers for the Goths that are any higher.

These figures come from recent books published by Oxford and Cambridge professors, as the posters here seem to find Italian sources unreliable. FWIW, most of the German sources I've seen are more in line with the Italian numbers.\

See, The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization, by Bryan Ward-Perkins (2005), and Empires and Barbarians by Peter Heather.

From the latter book, "immigrant Ostrogoths would have amounted to no more than 2 percent" of the total population of the peninsula. As the Lombard contingent appears to be of approximately the same size, we are talking about 5% of the population, which would include ALL the different y-dna clades of the invaders.

Furthermore, these invasions proceeded from the north east, through the Veneto, and there seems to be more settlements in that area, while U-152 is by every study I've seen, and FTDNA groups, higher in the northwest than in the northeast.

I would also be very surprised that a Germanic population could bring extraordinary levels of U-152, and very small levels of U-106.
 
Angela, thanks for posting this! I would like to address a few specific issues:

- regarding the connection to U152, if U152 is not exclusively Italic and the spread of U152 north of the Alps is not exclusively due to the expansion of the Roman Empire (which I find very hard to believe, for a multitude of reasons I addressed earlier in this thread, due to comparably high levels of U152 in areas with limited or not Roman influence), then it stands to reason that a sizable part of the Celtic population became absorbed by Celtic tribes as they moved southwards. It would hence be plausible that the Germanic tribes (especially the Alemannic, but also the Franks and some others) would become carriers of U152.

- I do not believe that Italian U152 is solely of Germanic origin (that would be impossible), and I agree that their effect would be minor. However, for reasons described above, the possibility of Germanic U152 cannot be ruled out.

- In my opinion, it is very likely there is an Italic component to U152, but we should not be fooled by the highest concentrations today. It's possible that U152 was more common in certain areas in the past, especially if you subtract the Germanic and Slavic migrations.
 
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