Reasons For R1b Dominance In Western Europe?

[kurama]

Obviously R1b has done very well in Western Europe since their arrival. Common reasons sited for their stunning success are:

1. Bronze weapons/tools
2. Chariot technology (and probably better usage of horses in general)
3. Higher percentage of male offspring than other haplogroups (specifically I)

Mainstream science will agree with the above statements (and so do I), but can you think of other explanations for their rapid rise? I apologize in advance for lengthy and/or multiple posts concerning my responses, sometimes I just like to type!

 

[hrvclv]

Maybe also :

4. A strongly hierarchical social structure, resulting in increased miltary discipline and efficacy (Sparta, Rome, etc...).
5. A culture glorifying military accomplishments, as described in Homer's Iliad.
6. The absence of similar cultural traits among the people they vanquished (?).
7. Greed ?

 

[davef]

Dang bro ur so totally right! The people they conquered with their brains and courage were LIBERAL (saying this blubbery cheek style like Rush), had primitive societies, and typical of them is a severely underdeveloped prefrontal cortex and thus lowered ability to reason and solve problems. They beat their women and spoke in primitive grunts
(URRRRKKKKH GNATH ARAKKTHH DAE DAE DAE AKH).

/sarcasm

 

[hrvclv]

It seems to be quite widely admitted that pre-BA people in western Europe lived in more egalitarian (matriachal?) societies than the people who came next. There's nothing derogatory about stating such a fact. No need for grunts or neo-cortex deficiencies to explain the fact that you can be more easily submerged by a wave of heavily trained warriors when you yourself don't make war your tip top priority.

 

[Ygorcs]

It seems to be quite widely admitted that pre-BA people in western Europe lived in more egalitarian (matriachal?) societies than the people who came next. There's nothing derogatory about stating such a fact. No need for grunts or neo-cortex deficiencies to explain the fact that you can be more easily submerged by a wave of heavily trained warriors when you yourself don't make war your tip top priority.

These notions of a matriarchal, peace-loving and egalitarian Europe have been mostly debunked in the last years. Some of those societies may have not been caste-based nor very aristocratic, but many of them had more, not less, technologies and social developments that are everywhere associated with the appearance of divison of labor and wealth, and I can't see why that would've been different in Europe. Does anyone really believe that the huge (for their time) cities of Cucuteni-Tripollye culture were perfectly egalitarian and lacked a political elite? I never bought that.

 

[twójstary]

Ethnic cleansing, simple as that.

 

[IronSide]

There is evidence for a plague, even if its not the main factor, it must have had an effect. I'm trying to find where I read about it, maybe someone could help ?

 

[Megalophias]

Ethnic cleansing, simple as that.

This is like saying: "how do you travel to the moon?" "Fly upward, simple as that." It can be the beginning of the answer, but the real question remains.

You can't just walk into someone else's territory and tell them to leave, you need to be able to overpower them. So, then, how did the early R1b men obtain this power?

 

[Angela]

There is evidence for a plague, even if its not the main factor, it must have had an effect. I'm trying to find where I read about it, maybe someone could help ?

It's from the Krause group. They've been writing about it for a few years. You can find it here:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/17/094243.full.pdf

I'll put a link in the papers for newbies thread for future reference.

Our search engine is pretty good. You could have found it easily just by searching for plague.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34924-The-Plague-in-Bronze-Age-Europe?highlight=plague

 

[IronSide]

It's from the Krause group. They've been writing about it for a few years. You can find it here:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/17/094243.full.pdf
I'll put a link in the papers for newbies thread for future reference.
Our search engine is pretty good. You could have found it easily just by searching for plague.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34924-The-Plague-in-Bronze-Age-Europe?highlight=plague

Thank you Angela.

At least there is evidence here, we don't need to resort to speculation about mass rape and genocide.

Ancient human genomic data point to a change in mobility and a
large scale expansion of people from the Caspian-Pontic Steppe related to individuals
associated with the ‘Yamnaya’ complex, both to the East and the West starting around 4,800
BP.

These people carried a distinct genetic component that first appears in Central European
individuals from the Corded Ware Complex and then forms/becomes part of the genetic
composition of most subsequent and all modern day European populations (Allentoft et al.,
2015; Haak et al., 2015). It was furthermore shown that there is a close genetic link between the
highly mobile groups of people associated to the Southern Siberian ‘Afanasievo Complex’, the
‘Yamnaya’, and the Central and Eastern European Corded Ware Complex (Allentoft et al.,
2015).

Our earliest indication of plague in Europe is found in Croatia and the Baltic region and
coincides with the time of the arrival of the genetic steppe component (Allentoft et al., 2015).
The two Late Neolithic Y. pestis genomes from the Baltic in this study were reconstructed from
individuals associated with the Corded Ware Complex (Gyvakarai1 and KunilaII). The Baltic and
Croatian Y. pestis genomes are genetically derived from a common ancestor of the strain
RK1001, reconstructed from an individual associated to the ‘Yamnaya’ complex and RISE509
from the ‘Afanasievo’ complex from the Altai region, suggesting that the pathogen might have
spread with steppe people from Central Eurasia to Eastern and Central Europe during their
large scale expansion. Furthermore, human genomic analyses indicate that the individuals
RISE509, Gyvakarai1, KunilaII and GEN72 carry ‘steppe ancestry’ (Mathieson et al., 2017;
Mittnik et al., 2017) Evidence for these long distance contacts is also present in the
archaeological record. For example, the Gyvakarai1 burial is characterised by both a specific
set of grave inventory (hammer headed pin) and distinct skeletal morphology, which have no
analogues in earlier local populations (Tebelškis and Jankauskas, 2006).

 

[Angela]

Thank you Angela.

At least there is evidence here, we don't need to resort to speculation about mass rape and genocide.

Well, you would think that the plague would have affected males and females equally, so the imbalance in terms of uniparental markers after the steppe arrival, where the mtDna of the farmers dominates, and the yDna, where the steppe yDna is much more present, still has to be explained.

I also doubt that any mass incursion like this would have been violence free, and there is the polygamous nature of the steppe culture and the resulting over presence of mate less young men sent out to roam and raid to consider. We just have to look at what happens in polygamous cultures like the FLDS here in the U.S. for a very loose analogy.

I think the plague was one among many factors.

 

[IronSide]

Well, you would think that the plague would have affected males and females equally, so the imbalance in terms of uniparental markers after the steppe arrival, where the mtDna of the farmers dominates, and the yDna, where the steppe yDna is much more present, still has to be explained.

I also doubt that any mass incursion like this would have been violence free, and there is the polygamous nature of the steppe culture and the resulting over presence of mate less young men sent out to roam and raid to consider. We just have to look at what happens in polygamous cultures like the FLDS here in the U.S. for a very loose analogy.

I think the plague was one among many factors.

Or what may have happened is that more women than men were included by the newcomers because more men made the migration than women to some degree, although I don't think it was as extreme as some people have proposed. The daughters of these women would have had a lot better chance for survival because of the genes of their fathers, a far better chance of survival than the daughters of the native fathers.

This is speculation on my part. Deja Vu ? https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34154-How-is-it-possible-for-I1-to-exist?p=510519&viewfull=1#post510519

 

[hrvclv]

The "huge (for their time) cities of Cucuteni-Tripollye culture" were probably an altogether different kettle of fish indeed. But today R1b is predominant in western Europe, where it took time for even the Neolithic cultures to arrive. Pre-BA cultures along the Atlantic fringe were probably much less structured / prosperous than their Eastern counterparts. As I see it, R1b expansion in those parts must have been something more like the Conquest of the American West. Epidemics, maybe, but military strength first and foremost. Hence the contrast between Y-hg predominance and admixture proportions in France, Spain, Portugal, etc... Few men defeated many. Technology and warlike traditions must have played a part.

 

[Angela]

Or what may have happened is that more women than men were included by the newcomers because more men made the migration than women to some degree, although I don't think it was as extreme as some people have proposed. The daughters of these women would have had a lot better chance for survival because of the genes of their fathers, a far better chance of survival than the daughters of the native fathers.
This is speculation on my part. Deja Vu ? https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...or-I1-to-exist?p=510519&viewfull=1#post510519

I knew that sounded very insightful.

I think that is indeed the case.

However, it doesn't negate the fact that the native men did not procreate at the same rate, and I don't think they willingly handed over their women. Nor can we ignore the cultural mores of these Indo-European groups, never mind that I can't think of a single mass migration and take over of land occurring without any violence.

"hrvclv

The "huge (for their time) cities of Cucuteni-Tripollye culture" were probably an altogether different kettle of fish indeed. But today R1b is predominant in western Europe, where it took time for even the Neolithic cultures to arrive. Pre-BA cultures along the Atlantic fringe were probably much less structured / prosperous than their Eastern counterparts. As I see it, R1b expansion in those parts must have been something more like the Conquest of the American West. Epidemics, maybe, but military strength first and foremost. Hence the contrast between Y-hg predominance and admixture proportions in France, Spain, Portugal, etc... Few men defeated many. Technology and warlike traditions must have played a part."​

I agree with almost all of that. Yes, the Cucuteni-Tripolye area's experience, perhaps that of Greece and perhaps Italy as well might have been very different if they didn't experience the population crashes that plagued Central and North and North-western Europe. Plus, there weren't the large tracts of uninhabited land, or land with foragers in the south as there were there.

I'm just not sure about the technology part. Corded Ware didn't seem to have any technological advantage in terms of weaponry, given that they barely even had any copper. It was a different case by the time the admixed steppe and local groups reached somewhere like the British Isles.

So, every situation might have been slightly different.

One thing that might have been an advantage was their mobility and reliance on pastoralism if the land or climate was no longer so advantageous in certain areas for farming.

It's very complicated, not the simplistic kurgans for dummies version that has been so dominant for the last years, especially on the internet.

 

[AdeoF]

Hmm was there a post about this before. I can't remember???

 

[bicicleur 2]

another scenario ..
by conincidence it is also about R1b
but not in Europe, in Northern America, among native Americans ..
the Ojibwe tribe were traders based near the cascades between lake Huron and Lake Superiors
they traded along the rivers and the lakes
in the 18th century through trade with French trappers they got hold of firearms
but not only of firearms, also of Y-DNA R1b
these Ojibwe with firearms became dominant among native Americans around the Great Lakes and the areas furhter to the west
these Ojibwe spread R1b all over that area .. even before any European had been there

View attachment 9621

it is a typical instance of male-biassed replacement
I don't say that is what happened in Europe, we don't know what happened
maybe it was something beyond our imagination

 

[Angela]

another scenario ..
by conincidence it is also about R1b
but not in Europe, in Northern America, among native Americans ..
the Ojibwe tribe were traders based near the cascades between lake Huron and Lake Superiors
they traded along the rivers and the lakes
in the 18th century through trade with French trappers they got hold of firearms
but not only of firearms, also of Y-DNA R1b
these Ojibwe with firearms became dominant among native Americans around the Great Lakes and the areas furhter to the west
these Ojibwe spread R1b all over that area .. even before any European had been there

View attachment 9621

it is a typical instance of male-biassed replacement
I don't say that is what happened in Europe, we don't know what happened
maybe it was something beyond our imagination

Very interesting none the less. I knew that the Ojibway have extremely high levels of R1b, but I didn't know the particulars.

 

[Silesian]

Obviously R1b has done very well in Western Europe since their arrival. Common reasons sited for their stunning success are:

1. Bronze weapons/tools
2. Chariot technology (and probably better usage of horses in general)
3. Higher percentage of male offspring than other haplogroups (specifically I)

Mainstream science will agree with the above statements (and so do I), but can you think of other explanations for their rapid rise? I apologize in advance for lengthy and/or multiple posts concerning my responses, sometimes I just like to type!

Western R1b is usually regarded as L51+. Compare the Eastern branch R1b-Z2103-Yamnaya-Kurgan descendants, for the ethnic cleansing model- look at the Mongol invasion onto the Steppes, compare with Bahgdad for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)
Groups like Hazara for example show Mongolian ydna. While R1b-Z2103-Yamnaya-Kurgan descendants show less of the marker in green-diagram.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/g...ect-descendants-of-genghis-khan/#.Wlkw_KinHIU

 

[Ygorcs]

Well, you would think that the plague would have affected males and females equally, so the imbalance in terms of uniparental markers after the steppe arrival, where the mtDna of the farmers dominates, and the yDna, where the steppe yDna is much more present, still has to be explained..

Of course I'm no expert, Angela, but in my reasoning there is no need of a complex and relevant explanation for that imbalance, though this conclusion doesn't lead us to think that the Indo-Europeanization of large areas happened peacefully, through mere gradual "difusion". But see: the pool of male and female population decreased equally... but on the other hand the pool of the incoming IE-speaking peoples was already very male-biased.

To put it into clearer terms, let's say we had 1,000 male conquerors and 100 female companions of them, coming into the territory of a native population of ~10,000 people (roughly half male, half female). If the plague killed 50% of them and didn't affect the incomers much, you'd soon have 3,500 men, IE immigrants being 29% of them, and 2,600 women.

This extreme sex imbalance would only reinforce (as it happens even nowadays in countries like India and China) what was already very expected in a situation of a polygamous and unequal society where one specific group acquired much more dominance and social prestige than the defeated ones: lots and lots of men wouldn't have been able to procreate, and that's not even counting those that were killed or became invalid, probably losing much of their attractiveness as husbands.

We don't even need to draw a dramatic fate for these defeated men. Even if they managed to have 2 children on average, while the IE men could father as many as 5 or 6 children each, in just 3 generations (~ 75 years) they the indigenous male "blood" could be reduced from the previous post-plague 71% to just 14%.

I've said it repeatedly because this is what I firmly believe: we don't need any apocalyptical scenario of genocides, ethnic cleansing and massive harems to explain the Neolithic European Y-DNA being replaced mostly by steppe-derived Y-DNA.

 

[Ygorcs]

As I see it, R1b expansion in those parts must have been something more like the Conquest of the American West. Epidemics, maybe, but military strength first and foremost. Hence the contrast between Y-hg predominance and admixture proportions in France, Spain, Portugal, etc... Few men defeated many. Technology and warlike traditions must have played a part.

You're partially right, because I must say you've possibly got it the other way around: in the conquest of the American West, it was epidemics first and foremost and only then, in a secondary and posterior role, technology and military strength. When the whites started to arrive in large numbers in the end of the 18th to the beginning of the 19th century, they found basically a wasteland compared to what existed before. Even with the most basic, even if, I grant, superior technology, and even with low numbers you could defeat all the Native American tribes around you. After all, you were now fighting not an army of 15,000 organized men, but 2,000 men of impoverished and disassembled societies who had been decaying and moving around for even 250 years before the immigrants arrived in large numbers (but the pathogens traveled very fast). I'd bet Neolithic Europe had something similar to this situation, and many IE tribes simply took the loot after reasonably easy wars.