R1a in Western Europe

[Taranis]

I know that R1a is pretty scarce in Western Europe, but I thought it might be worth asking this: what is the origin of R1a in Western European countries? How/when was it accumulated to the levels we witness today?

 

[LeBrok]

Some R1a could have arrived to Western Europe with Goths, Vandals, Swabs or Attila the Hun. All these tribes where in touch, or ruling R1a for few hundreds of years. If it comes to Germanic tribes, they always contained R1a.

 

[Yorkie]

According to Jim Wilson of Ethnoancestry, most R1a1 found in British men comes from the Norwegian Viking invasions. A smaller percentage was carried by Danes and Anglo Saxons.

There are several different forms of R1a1, some lean more towards Germany, some towards Scandinavia, some are of a Slavic type etc. Ultimately, the consensus appears to be that all R1a1 n Europe is linked to the Corded Ware/Battle Axe culture and the Indo-European 'Kurgan' expansions.

 

[Maciamo]

R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.

 

[willy]

R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.

R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

 

[Taranis]

R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

R1b-M269 clearly didn't arrive before the Neolithic, it's too young for that, and it's also present in Central Asia, meaning that the mutation happened - with all likelihood - before R1b migrated into Europe. Conversely, R1b-P310 must have happened after the arrival in Europe. So, in my opinion, this narrows down the arrival of R1b in Western Europe to after about 5000 BC and before 2000 BC.

I must agree however that M269 did not arrive in Europe with the Corded-Ware Indo-Europeans.

 

[Melusine]

For anyone interested re: R1a and R1b , referenced information by geneticists.

Yahoo search : western europes human population 2000 years ago. Go to results about page 5, article name: Genetic history of Europe Facts, Discussion Forum. Abolute astronomy.

Melusine

 

[Maciamo]

R1b1b2 was NOT braught to Western Europe during the IE expansion because R1b1b2 is on Western Europe since the neolithic and may be before ...

Impossible, the latest study on the structure of R1b clearly shows that all the first subclade to be exclusively European was R1b1b2a1 (M412), not R1b1b2.

R1b1b2a1 is about 6000 years old, which places it in the early Bronze Age. And most Western Europeans belong to clades further downstream, most of which are less than 4000 years old.

If R1b1b2a1 came during the Neolithic expansion, it would have to be at least 9,000 years old, which is the time when the Neolithic farmers left Anatolia for Europe.

 

[willy]

Impossible, the latest study on the structure of R1b clearly
R1b1b2a1 is about 6000 years old

From where it comes from I mean before Western Europe ?

 

[how yes no 2]

R1a in Western Europe is probably in great part the result of the Germanic invasions (Vikings included). Some of it could have been there from the Indo-European expansion that brought R1b1b2 to Western Europe.

genetically, I would put apart Germans and Vikings....
at least because Scandinavians and Vikings had abundance of R1a for a long time, while Germans of today mostly acquired it from Slavs in east Germany...
Gots on other hand might have carried some R1a already from Gotland... later they lived surrounded with Slavs, so they could spread it later to their countries in south Europe... for this there would need to be correlation between R1a levels and I1 levels in areas covered by Visigoth state
Btw. how do we know that R1a was not there before R1b but in low numbers? or that certain percentage of R1a was not arriving together with R1b from Asia...we just can't know that....
R1a and R1b share common origin and it is not unthinkable that some populations throughout history harboured both of them in decent percentages...

 

[Maciamo]

genetically, I would put apart Germans and Vikings....
at least because Scandinavians and Vikings had abundance of R1a for a long time, while Germans of today mostly acquired it from Slavs in east Germany...

You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin. Ancient DNA tests have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a. The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009).

The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.

 

[Yorkie]

You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin. Ancient DNA tests have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a. The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009).

The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.

If you refer to the recent Corded-Ware burial remains found in Eulau, Germany you are correct. The remains were close to the norm for German-leaning R1a1 rather than the Slavic form.

Re Scandinavians having a higher degree of Siberian admixture and Mongoloid features; it surely depends upon which Scandinavians you mean. I don't see much N and Q, or 'Mongoloid' features amongst the Danes for example.

On another topic, I've sent you a couple of private emails requesting help re H5 Mtdna. Did you receive them? I'd appreciate your kind advice if possible, please.

 

[Maciamo]

On another topic, I've sent you a couple of private emails requesting help re H5 Mtdna. Did you receive them? I'd appreciate your kind advice if possible, please.

Sorry, I don't have time to reply to emails (nor to all forum posts for that matter). If you asked the question on the forum and I didn't reply it means I don't have much to say on the topic, or it requires too much research.

 

[Yorkie]

Sorry, I don't have time to reply to emails (nor to all forum posts for that matter). If you asked the question on the forum and I didn't reply it means I don't have much to say on the topic, or it requires too much research.

No problem. I know you have a lot on your plate running the forum.

All the best.

 

[how yes no 2]

hm, well let's see whether Maciamo have a clue about what he claims....
let's peak into supplementary info for the work you quote:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf
table 1 shows that
R1a in Germany samples is the same as the one dominant in Slavic (M458 that is R1a1a*), while for Sweden for every 12 Slavic alike samples, 1 is different (R1a1*), and for Norway for every 9 Slavic-alike samples there is 1 different... in Greece for every 6 Slavic-alike samples there is one different (R1a1*).....
I think that R1a1* was probably first of several waves to enter Europe... its spread is only on north most and south most area, which indicates that it was likely pushed out on margins but later invaders... its distribution doesnot match with Corded ware that hardly reached Norway and was never near Greece

thus, this was a wave before Corded ware... a wave that was later pushed out to margins of Europe by later settlement waves from Asia and Asia minor...also by Corded ware invaders...

table s2 focus on R1a1a* and shows a difference between M458 and R1a1a7* parts of it:

N R1a1a total R1a1a*(xM458) R1a1a7* Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study
Ireland East 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Ireland North 21 9.5 9.5 0 This study
Ireland South 24 0 0 0 This study
Ireland Southwest 22 0 0 0 This study
Ireland West 16 0 0 0 This study
England Central 25 0 0 0 This study
England North 29 3.4 3.4 0 This study
England Southeast 25 0 0 0 This study
England Southwest 25 0 0 0 This study
France East 25 4.0 4.0 0 This study
France 16 0 0 0 This study
France West 14 0 0 0 This study
France, HGDP-CEPH 12 0 0 0 This study
Spain, Andalusia 29 0 0 0 15
Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study
Switzerland Northeast 32 6.3 6.3 0.0 This study
Switzerland Northwest 27 3.7 3.7 0.0 This study
Switzerland South 16 0 0 0 This study
Switzerland 16 0 0 0 This study
Central, Eastern and Northern Europe
Poland (Zamosc) 98 57.1 20.4 36.7 Updated from 8
Poland Southwest (Wroclaw) 93 55.9 32.3 23.7 This study
Poland Central 42 47.6 14.3 33.3 This study
Poland South 22 50.0 13.6 36.4 This study
Poland North 17 52.9 29.4 23.5 This study
Poland West 15 26.7 20.0 6.7 This study
Poland East 13 46.2 30.8 15.4 This study
Ukraine Central-eastern (Dneprovskii) 114 43.9 21.1 22.8 This study
Ukraine West (Lvov, Ivanovo-Frankovsk) 157 43.3 27.4 15.9 This study
Ukraine Western-central (Hmelnitsk) 179 49.2 41.3 7.8 This study
Ukraine Southeast (Donetsk) 93 34.4 23.7 10.8 Updated from 8
Ukraine East (Belgorod) 56 46.4 41.1 5.4 This study
Ukraine Central 28 17.9 10.7 7.1 This study
Belorussia Central 50 42.0 38.0 4.0 This study
Belorussia West (Brest) 97 58.8 36.1 22.7 This study
Belorussia Northeast (Vitebsk) 100 60.0 47.0 13.0 This study
Czech Republic (2 locations) 88 34.1 8.0 26.1 This study
Slovakia (Bratislava) 82 45.1 18.3 26.8 This study
Slovakia West 109 44.0 25.7 18.3 This study
Slovakia East 38 52.6 34.2 18.4 This study
Slovakia South 23 60.9 39.1 21.7 This study
Slovakia North 22 45.5 31.8 13.6 This study
Hungary 113 20.4 15.9 4.4 Updated from 16
Slovenia (2 locations) 180 30.0 27.2 2.8 This study
Russians Russia South (Belgorod) 143 62.2 50.3 11.9 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Central (Kostroma) 52 30.8 19.2 11.5 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Central (Pskov) 132 47.0 34.8 12.1 Updated from 17
Russians Russia South (Orel) 110 61.8 47.3 14.5 Updated from 17
Russians Russia Southwest 22 27.3 13.6 13.6 This study
Russians Russia Northwest 14 42.9 28.6 14.3 This study
Estonia 210 34.3 28.6 5.7 This study
Karelians (Russia) 140 40.7 27.1 13.6 This study
Vepsa (Russia) 39 38.5 23.1 15.4 This study
Circum-Uralic region
Chuvashis (Russia) 117 25.6 25.6 0 This study
Bashkirs (Russia) 126 28.6 28.6 0 This study
Maris (Russia) 49 26.5 26.5 0 This study
Komis-permyans (Russia) 60 36.7 36.7 0 This study
Komis (Russia) 52 5.8 1.9 3.8 This study
Tatars from Bashkortostan (Russia) 39 15.4 12.8 2.6 This study
Tatars from Tatarstan (Russia) 66 39.4 34.8 4.5 This study
Udmurts (Russia) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
South-eastern Europe
Croatia mainland 108 26.9 24.1 2.8 Updated from 17
Croats Osijek (Croatia) 29 37.9 37.9 0 Updated from 8
Croats Split (Croatia) 89 25.8 16.9 9.0 Updated from 8
Croatia Krk Island 74 36.5 24.3 12.2 Updated from 17
Croatia Korcula Island 134 15.7 12.7 3.0 Updated from 17
Croatia Brac Island 49 24.5 22.4 2.0 Updated from 17
Croatia Hvar Island 91 6.6 6.6 0 Updated from 17
Croats, Bosnia 90 12.2 7.8 4.4 Updated from 8
Bosnia (2 locations) 163 23.3 12.9 8.6 Updated from 8
Serbs, Bosnia 83 13.3 8.4 4.8 Updated from 8
Serbia 113 15.9 12.4 3.5 Updated from 18
Albanians, Kosovo 114 3.5 3.5 0 Updated from 18
Montenegro 103 6.8 6.8 0 This study
Herzegovina 141 12.1 11.3 0.7 Updated from 18
FYROM, Macedonia 79 13.9 10.1 3.8 Updated from 18
Albania 55 10.9 5.5 5.5 Updated from 8
Greece (2 locations) 263 12.9 9.1 4.2 Updated from 8
Greeks, Macedonia 57 12.8 1.8 8.8 Updated from 8
Crete 193 8.8 7.8 1.0 Updated from 3
Crete 168 10.7 7.1 3.6 Updated from 2
Romania 335 17.0 11.6 5.4 This study
Italy South (2 locations) 163 1.8 1.8 0 This study
Italy North 124 6.5 6.5 0 This study
Italy Northeast 64 7.8 7.8 0 Updated from 8

Obvious conclusion is that this split can not differentiate between "Slavic" and "non-Slavic" R1a, since "non-Slavic" one dominates most Slavic nations, while "Slavic"one dominates some completely non-Slavic nations... (btw. see reminder of Table for Asia where the one that you might call "Slavic" is hardly present which in fact indicates its dominantly European origin)

only conclusion is that your claims cannot in any interpretation be based on genetic results presented in the work that you have quoted

You are right saying that Scandinavians should be a separate category from other Germanic peoples, but I disagree that German R1a is of Slavic origin.

that is debatable...
if you consider R1a1a7* as only Slavic related part of M458 you might get weird ideas like that...
but than you get lot of dominantly non-slavic Slavs like Russians, Ukraines, Serbs, Czechs, Croats, Bosnians, Montenegers, southwest Poland, west south east and north Slovakia, south central and northwest Russia,... and even in remainder of Slavic areas with what you call Slavic R1a only tightly dominant..
and next to all those non-Slavic south Slavs you also get extremely Slavic Greece province of Macedonia...fascinating...isn't it?
you also get Slavic central and south Germany and less Slavic east Germany . completely Slavic west Netherlands as opposed to completely non-Slavic east and north Netherlands... :innocent:

Ancient DNA tests have proven that R1a was already in Germany during the Corded Ware period, at least 4500 years ago, and STR markers show a continuity with modern German R1a.

really?
can you get support for distinction between German and Slavic R1a in table above?

and more important are you trying to prove something with single sample? we do not really now yet Corded ware DNA... one leaf does not tell everything about a nearby forest......

The Slavs only came to Central Europe in the late Antiquity, less than 1500 years ago.

actually you are wrong there... we can discuss about when IE Slavic languages and cultures came to Europe....but table above gives a clue that genetical forfathers of most Slavs of today are in Europe for long time...

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe. Judge by yourself (this map is from the R1a study by Underhill 2009).

ehm, M458 is the name for most European R1a... in fact, besides being overwhelming in slavic lands, it maps better to non-Slavic lands and is probably more frequent in older expansion (not necesserilly corded ware) ...
again, based on the data from the work that you quote, only conclusion is that your claims cannot in any interpretation be based on genetic results presented in the work that you have quoted

The reason why I would place Scandinavians in a separate category from other Germanic people is because of their higher degree of Siberian admixture (hg N and Q) and consequently the higher incidence of Mongoloid features.

N R1a1a total R1a1a*(xM458) R1a1a7* Reference
Western Europe
Norway 74 23.0 23.0 0 This study
Sweden South (Malmö) 141 18.4 16.3 2.1 This study
Denmark East 17 5.9 5.9 0 This study
Denmark Island (East) 10 10.0 10.0 0 This study
Denmark North 43 11.6 11.6 0 This study
Denmark West 19 15.8 15.8 0 This study
Netherlands North 22 9.1 9.1 0 This study
Netherlands Southeast 19 5.3 5.3 0 This study

Denmark Southeast 23 13.0 8.7 4.3 This study
Netherlands West 47 4.3 0 4.3 This study

Germany 16 6.3 6.3 0 This study
Germany West 100 5.0 5.0 0 This study
Germany East 47 29.8 19.1 10.6 This study
Germany South 91 11.0 4.4 6.6 This study
Germany Central 19 15.8 5.3 10.5 This study
Germany North 65 15.4 12.3 3.1 This study
Austria 19 26.3 21.1 5.3 This study

 

[Guachelin]

Besides, most of the Slavic R1a falls into the R1a1a1g (M458) subclade, which is present at low frequencies in Austria, Bavaria and Thuringia (according to the map below) and almost inexistent in the rest of Germany, Scandinavia and Western Europe.

I hope that you or someone can clear this up.
I am R1a1a1 SNP Z93+, SNPs M417, M198 positive, L2833-, L284-

Full results:

Your Halogroup
R1a1a1	Z93+ M417+ M198+ Z94- Z284- Z283- PK5- P98- M64.2- M56- M458- M434- M157.1- L176.1- L175- L12-

[TH="class: blue"] Tests[/TH]

According to Lapinski, given that I am Z93+, I am R1a1a1h*,
I am M458-, M417+

I have a long ancestral history in England, documented to the reign of Henry VII, and it is believed to be of Norman origin.

I am , apparently, not of Scandanavian Viking origin, my surname is of French Norman origin.

But the real question is why would L. Lapinski have me at R1a1a1g* as I'm Z93+, but M458-

 

[Dubhthach]

I hope that you or someone can clear this up.
I am R1a1a1 SNP Z93+, SNPs M417, M198 positive, L2833-, L284-

Full results:

Your Halogroup
R1a1a1	Z93+ M417+ M198+ Z94- Z284- Z283- PK5- P98- M64.2- M56- M458- M434- M157.1- L176.1- L175- L12-

[TH="class: blue"] Tests[/TH]

According to Lapinski, given that I am Z93+, I am R1a1a1g*, however I am M458-, M417+

I have a long ancestral history in England, documented to the reign of Henry VII, and it is believed to be of Norman origin.

I am , apparently, not of Scandanavian Viking origin, my surname is of French Norman origin.

But the real question is why would L. Lapinski have me at R1a1a1g* as I'm Z93+, but M458-

According to latest draft tree from ISOGG Z93* = R1a1a1h*
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Perhaps he mistyped. Here's a fairly recent version of his R1a tree taken from R1a project site.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

 

[Guachelin]

thanks I caught that about 1 hr ago, and have edited my post.

Thank you very much

 

[Taranis]

According to latest draft tree from ISOGG Z93* = R1a1a1h*
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Perhaps he mistyped. Here's a fairly recent version of his R1a tree taken from R1a project site.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/R1a-ch.jpg

Interesting trees, thanks for sharing that.

Regarding the original thread topic, it would be interesting to see now the various concentrations of Western European R1a plot:

In my opinion, the only sensible candidates for me for "native" subclades of R1a (that is, not having their in relatively late, historic times, ie. Migration Period, Vikings, etc.) in Western Europe are either R1a1a* and R1a1a1i (R1a-L664). It would be interesting to see where and how R1a from Ireland, Scotland, the Auvergne and Cantabria plot here and if they have any sizable occurence of the above. If not, well, any other subclades Z284, Z280 etc. are certainly from later events (Vikings, Goths, Suebi, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, etc. - depending on the area, some of the French and Iberian R1a may even be Sarmatian in origin, but I expect the latter to be hardly more than noise).

 

[Dubhthach]

Interesting trees, thanks for sharing that.

Regarding the original thread topic, it would be interesting to see now the various concentrations of Western European R1a plot:

In my opinion, the only sensible candidates for me for "native" subclades of R1a (that is, not having their in relatively late, historic times, ie. Migration Period, Vikings, etc.) in Western Europe are either R1a1a* and R1a1a1i (R1a-L664). It would be interesting to see where and how R1a from Ireland, Scotland, the Auvergne and Cantabria plot here and if they have any sizable occurence of the above. If not, well, any other subclades Z284, Z280 etc. are certainly from later events (Vikings, Goths, Suebi, Anglo-Saxons, Franks, etc. - depending on the area, some of the French and Iberian R1a may even be Sarmatian in origin, but I expect the latter to be hardly more than noise).

As far as I known R1a-L664 marks what is known as the "NorthWestern branch" of R1a. Which appears to be marked by DYS388=10

According to post here, L664 was found in irish person

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2011-08/1314070421

L664 : Found in an Irish member of the Northwestern (DYS388 = 10) branch,
and confirmed in a 1000 Genomes sample. May include much or all of that
branch.

R1a-Z284 seems to be specifically linked with Scandinavia, the presence of it's subclades in Scotland and Ireland have been associated with the Vikings. Particulary L448 and it's subclade L176