Question Paternal Continuity of Modern Greeks From Ancient Greeks

[Vallicanus]

Sniff my balls.

Slope off to the Apricity forum, a refuge for people like you.

 

[Vallicanus]

If you are French I'm the Pope.

 

[Vallicanus]

Physical impossibility. You don't have any.

 

[Riverman]

The Albanian branch of PF7562 is: PF7563>PF7566>BY9673.

PF7563 consolidated 15 branches in 2850 BC and was found in Mycenaean royal tombs. The fact that 1 out of 15 branches is dominant in present-day Albania does not mean that the other 14 were dominant as well.

But there a couple of branches which look like being, at the very least, rather re-introduced by other Balkan people. It doesn't really look like a direct Greek survival on a higher level. This applies to E-L618 also, with a couple of branches being found in old Mycenaean Greeks, but most moderns are E-V13 from later movements of people to the core Greek territory. Yet the old E-L618 branches found, are not common in Greeks. Same applies to a lot of other Carpatho-Balkan haplogroups, even if they were found in old Mycenaean Greeks already.

 

[Dibran]

The Albanian branch of PF7562 is: PF7563>PF7566>BY9673.

PF7563 consolidated 15 branches in 2850 BC and was found in Mycenaean royal tombs. The fact that 1 out of 15 branches is dominant in present-day Albania does not mean that the other 14 were dominant as well.

Unless somethings changed, last I checked a majority of Greek PF7562 belongs in Albanian branches. However, there are a few (though minimum) cases where they stand independently of Albanian clades. Perhaps those represent such continuity.

 

[Fshatar]

R-PF7562>PF7563>Z29758 is a Proto-Illyrian patrilineage. R-PF7562 in modern Greeks makes up less than 1%, the data is publicly available at both FTDNA/Yfull. Instead of spouting disinformation it'd be good to check facts beforehand. The less than 1% R-PF7562 in modern Greeks is entirely Albanian mediated. There is zero continuity btw Mycenaean R-PF7562 clades and modern Greeks.

A considerable amount of modern greek R-M269 is from the migration era, that is R-L51 of all sorts, Armenian/Kartvelian R-Z2103>L584 and Albanian related R-Z2103 and R-PF7562.

 

[—BoNe—]

You shouldn’t interpret FTDNA data literally. We all know it’s the prettiest website of all, but remember that it’s a commercial platform and therefore significantly distorts reality due to the random collection of samples. The conclusions you draw from 250 Albanian samples —of which only 10 are PF7563— seem surprising to me.

5 are BY9673* (850 CE)

2 are Z29764* (2550 BCE)

3 are PF7563* (2850 BCE)

A branch of 15 is not enough; PF7573 is neither Albanian nor Illyrian in origin.

The Greeks were the Hellenes, and as far as we know, the few ancient samples have mostly yielded J2 and R1b.

E-V13 seems to have an Aegean origin, though not specifically Hellenic, and BY3830 —the first in that line to have a founder effect with 15 branches— appears to be Danubian/Thracian. As far as I know, E-V13 has not been found in Greek samples dated between 2000–1000 BCE.

That’s why I didn’t include it in the equation. However, E-V13 has 142 samples in total, about 11%, the highest levels alongside M269 when considering time-to-descendant ratios.

The Greeks and Italians have the most E-V13* samples without BY3880—about 40 of 142 (100 are BY3880)—and the Italians 140 of 300 (160 are BY3880), followed by Western countries with a few isolated basal branches.

The Balkan populations, on the other hand, are more than 80% BY3880, and have little to do with their Aegean E-V13* ancestors.

When breaking down the current Greek populations of clade J2 —the present majority— we see that when we go down to M92 (a clade from 6000 BCE), we’re left with 18 samples. The same happens with G2. T is always scarce, and I2 and R1a are mostly of Slavic origin.

None of those have a founder clade.

PF7562, dating to 3200 BCE, has 22 samples (the highest % among Greeks in terms of time-to-descendant ratio). The person with the oldest common ancestor in this group is located in Greece.

Next, the countries with the highest PF7562* ratios are Armenia (10) and Turkey (31 samples).

For PF7563, Armenia has 3 of 10, Turkey 21 of 31, and Greece 20. Of those 20 Greek samples, 3 branches remain in Greece, 2 in Turkey, and the remaining 15 PF7563 branches are scattered across various countries.

In ancient samples, PF7562* has been found in Crete, and PF7563* in Mycenaean royal tombs.

The most probable birthplace and consolidation area of PF7563 is therefore Greece/Crete, within the “Mycenaean” culture between 2000–1000 BCE.