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Origin of the basques (revisit)

sorry Angela and all of yours: I tried to answer Angela bit by bit but I made a mess - you will be obliged to devine what is her's and what in mine: I had written my thoughts in oblique letters but all the text turned like that!
 
OK: some study... Could you give me the link, I'm interested even if a study does not make the law - thanks beforehand
but I don't understand why you say I'm mistaken bacause you don't criticize my post point by point, just putting other points: irish or welsh people have some common components with Basques and others, some pre-neolithical, some neolithical and others post-neolithical so...?

sorry but this was two years before and I have not stored the document.
But I give you against a document which you will be pleased and you will strengthen your positions, and personally after read, I wondered how I could have children with a woman not Basque.
you will notice that for this study, he said they have not used or genetic ill or mentally or ..... it's weird it reminds me of someone. But how can we know if they have genetic diseases before having genetic study?
It is advisable to laugh! this is the best remedy.




http://jacques.tourtaux.over-blog.c...-autres-populations-europeennes-51017941.html
 
I can't see how the Basques have a Mesolithic origin, unless La Brana, Loschbour and the Swedish hunter gatherers sequenced so far are not representative of all the Mesolithic populations in Iberia. As you know, the data so far says they are yDNA "I", and mtDNA "U", and neither are all that common in Iberia. Also, we know La Brana is autosomally related to north east Baltic populations, not the Basque. Unless you feel that other Mesolithic samples not yet studied will provide a very different picture?

coming back again on the question of today Basques and mesolithical and neolithical populations (very poor sample for autosomals and very poor detailed autosomals analysis:
a survey asbtract (taken by me in a blog I confess) considers Basques are farther from 'Stuttgart' farmer than Maltese, Askhenazes, Sicilians, Sardinians, Spaniards (whole), Tuscans, Greeks, Albanians, Bergamo people and Bulgarians (in this order, the closer to 'Stuttgart' being the Maltese) - and the France Basques are even farther, farther than southern French people, just before Croatian and France (whole) and Hungarians - we can suppose someones as Croatians have surely some good remnants of pre-neolithical HG's? - the 'north european' component of some Dodecad poolings have surely some sense too, has it not? -
and it seems debated, but some scholars said mt-H3, considering evolution rate and phylologic tree, could be as old as Upper Paleolithic end (where? Iberia?)- I have no knowledge to judge this affirmation - and someones else said some mt-H were present in Iberia before 7500 BC (Mesolithic) - its presence in Finland and Scandinavia and E-Baltic have surely some implications? - I cannot check that, sure... by the way, La Brana 2 would present 24,8% OF 'MEDITERRANEAN' COMPONENT in some survey... for me, Mesolithic was already the period of some movements and crossings ...
no objection for a Mesolithical or late Upper Paleolithical presence of Y-E1b (V13 ancestors) in S-E Europe: in Iberia, I think V13 came later (early Neolithic?) -
 
.............................................
I hope you don't think I'm badgering you with these questions. I'm trying to build a coherent picture of these population movements into Europe, and somehow the answers have to incorporate all the data we're accumulating, mtDNA, yDNA, autosomal DNA and anthropological data as well.

obviously ! it is better to accumulate the facts proved more than certainties.
 
I can't see how the Basques have a Mesolithic origin, unless La Brana, Loschbour and the Swedish hunter gatherers sequenced so far are not representative of all the Mesolithic populations in Iberia. As you know, the data so far says they are yDNA "I", and mtDNA "U", and neither are all that common in Iberia. Also, we know La Brana is autosomally related to north east Baltic populations, not the Basque. Unless you feel that other Mesolithic samples not yet studied will provide a very different picture?

coming back again on the question of today Basques and mesolithical and neolithical populations (very poor sample for autosomals and very poor detailed autosomals analysis:
a survey asbtract (taken by me in a blog I confess) considers Basques are farther from 'Stuttgart' farmer than Maltese, Askhenazes, Sicilians, Sardinians, Spaniards (whole), Tuscans, Greeks, Albanians, Bergamo people and Bulgarians (in this order, the closer to 'Stuttgart' being the Maltese) - and the France Basques are even farther, farther than southern French people, just before Croatian and France (whole) and Hungarians - we can suppose someones as Croatians have surely some good remnants of pre-neolithical HG's? - the 'north european' component of some Dodecad poolings have surely some sense too, has it not? -
and it seems debated, but some scholars said mt-H3, considering evolution rate and phylologic tree, could be as old as Upper Paleolithic end (where? Iberia?)- I have no knowledge to judge this affirmation - and someones else said some mt-H were present in Iberia before 7500 BC (Mesolithic) - its presence in Finland and Scandinavia and E-Baltic have surely some implications? - I cannot check that, sure... by the way, La Brana 2 would present 24,8% OF 'MEDITERRANEAN' COMPONENT in some survey... for me, Mesolithic was already the period of some movements and crossings ...
no objection for a Mesolithical or late Upper Paleolithical presence of Y-E1b (V13 ancestors) in S-E Europe: in Iberia, I think V13 came later (early Neolithic?) -


Clearly, I wasn't as precise with my language as I should have been. I don't doubt that there is WHG in the Basques. My point was that one theory about them held that they were a remnant or "pure" representative of paleolithic/mesolithic people. That's been proved to be incorrect since, using the genomes currently available to us, they are almost 60% EEF, and EEF is a Near Eastern farmer by way of the Balkans.

Basques:
EEF-.593
WHG-.293
ANE-.114

You can find the percentages for all the sampled populations on page 10 of this set of extended figures and tables:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-1.pdf

The analysis to which you were referring must have been based on this graphic from Lazaridis et al: http://imageshack.com/a/img32/6987/vqot.png
There are indeed European populations with EEF percentages higher than theirs...

Of course, this may change with the sequencing of more southern European mesolithic peoples, I suppose.

I do agree that some of these movements may have been late mesolithic as well as early Neolithic, and yes, given what samples we have so far, E-V13 seems to be Neolithic or later in Iberia.
 
Clearly, I wasn't as precise with my language as I should have been. I don't doubt that there is WHG in the Basques. My point was that one theory about them held that they were a remnant or "pure" representative of paleolithic/mesolithic people. That's been proved to be incorrect since, using the genomes currently available to us, they are almost 60% EEF, and EEF is a Near Eastern farmer by way of the Balkans.

Basques:
EEF-.593
WHG-.293
ANE-.114

You can find the percentages for all the sampled populations on page 10 of this set of extended figures and tables:
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-1.pdf

The analysis to which you were referring must have been based on this graphic from Lazaridis et al: http://imageshack.com/a/img32/6987/vqot.png
There are indeed European populations with EEF percentages higher than theirs...

Of course, this may change with the sequencing of more southern European mesolithic peoples, I suppose.

I do agree that some of these movements may have been late mesolithic as well as early Neolithic, and yes, given what samples we have so far, E-V13 seems to be Neolithic or later in Iberia.

OK I agree: I was just justifying myself and trying to be more precise - in others of my post in different threads I already wrote I did not believe Basques were a dominantly paleo or mesolithical population - I believed it was clear .
have a good sunday
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

Where did the Cucuteni go? If they were displaced by PIE raids then maybe they moved west to get away from them. If the actual IE expansion happened later after they'd developed their horse tech then maybe the Basques are a relic of mesolithic Europeans from what is now Romania.

Well, they have an EEF score of 60%, and EEF is basically the LBK woman who is a Near Eastern farmer by way of the Balkans with perhaps some additional WHG, so I don't see how it's possible for them to be a relic of a mesolithic population.
 
Well, they have an EEF score of 60%, and EEF is basically the LBK woman who is a Near Eastern farmer by way of the Balkans with perhaps some additional WHG, so I don't see how it's possible for them to be a relic of a mesolithic population.
If, in Russia, people are still communists therefore means that no logic can convince the most entrenched beliefs. Do not bother more for it.
Why wear debunking statues, the time will.
 
Well, they have an EEF score of 60%, and EEF is basically the LBK woman who is a Near Eastern farmer by way of the Balkans with perhaps some additional WHG, so I don't see how it's possible for them to be a relic of a mesolithic population.

Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the language.

simplified speculative sequence
1) I/U forager population mostly displaced by neolithic G/H farmer population except in the far north
2) G/H population mostly replaced by a copper age volkwanderung R1b/U ex-cucuteni population displaced from the region west of the Black Sea by the PIE
3) some H females remain and selection in place for farmer alleles via that female line (EEF percentage increases this way)**
4) Bronze Age Indo-European R1a/R1b expansion almost everywhere but missing the Basques
5) Basques end up relic of cucuteni y dna and neolithic farmer mtdna and non IE language.

** alternatively a roman foundation style admixture where a few shiploads of R1b males land somewhere and kidnap wives from nearby farmers -> instant 50% EEF admixture in the kids

I think the key point is that unless I'm missing something a logical corollary of what has been said vis a vis the strong selection of farmer genes like SLC24A5 **requires** either a roman style 50/50 admixture event or that EEF **increased** over time and yet if LBK was over-run then it can't be from the male line so it must be from the female. As there's a clear signal of mtdna H increasing over time in various regions that might be it - or not. Regardless of the mtdna H idea though if genes like SLC24A5 were initially farmer genes and they have been strongly selected for then logically (i think) either the admixture was a one-off Sabine type event with a 50% EEF outcome or the percentage of EEF must have been gone up over time.
 
Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of the language.

simplified speculative sequence
1) I/U forager population mostly displaced by neolithic G/H farmer population except in the far north
2) G/H population mostly replaced by a copper age volkwanderung R1b/U ex-cucuteni population displaced from the region west of the Black Sea by the PIE
3) some H females remain and selection in place for farmer alleles via that female line (EEF percentage increases this way)**
4) Bronze Age Indo-European R1a/R1b expansion almost everywhere but missing the Basques
5) Basques end up relic of cucuteni y dna and neolithic farmer mtdna and non IE language.

** alternatively a roman foundation style admixture where a few shiploads of R1b males land somewhere and kidnap wives from nearby farmers -> instant 50% EEF admixture in the kids

I think the key point is that unless I'm missing something a logical corollary of what has been said vis a vis the strong selection of farmer genes like SLC24A5 **requires** either a roman style 50/50 admixture event or that EEF **increased** over time and yet if LBK was over-run then it can't be from the male line so it must be from the female. As there's a clear signal of mtdna H increasing over time in various regions that might be it - or not. Regardless of the mtdna H idea though if genes like SLC24A5 were initially farmer genes and they have been strongly selected for then logically (i think) either the admixture was a one-off Sabine type event with a 50% EEF outcome or the percentage of EEF must have been gone up over time.


You began by saying that the Basques are a relic of mesolithic Europeans from what is now Romania. Then you said you were speaking mainly of linguistics(?) and then moved into a speculation that the Basques are descended from people from Cucuteni who carried R1b and mtDNA U. Trying to connect the two, I think you are implying that the Cucuteni people were Mesolithic? I think there's zero evidence for that.

We have absolutely no idea who the Cucuteni were in terms of uniparental markers or autosomal admixture in Lazaridis et al terms. I highly doubt, however, that these people were majority WHG. At the most, I think they would have been an EEF population possibly mixed with some steppe elements with higher WHG and ANE.

Also, I really don't see any substantial replacement of the Neolithic population anywhere in Europe where it previously existed in great numbers. You really can't use yDNA signatures to track this in my opinion, as they are far too volatile, and subject to drift, not to mention that we don't really understand selection in regards to yDNA.

I think we need to place EEF levels in Europe in context. In those places in Europe where there were dense neolithic populations, EEF levels are still at 70% or above. In central Europe, perhaps owing to climate change (although that has recently been discounted), environmental degradation owing to over use of the land, and/or disease, there does appear to have been a decrease in the population. The last things I remember reading about the Neolithic in Britain indicate that the Neolithic population definitely declined. However, the EEF level in England still hovers around 50%, as it does in Germany. Of course, as I postulated above, the newer migration groups from the Bronze Age to the post Roman Age carried some EEF of their own.

The far northeastern countries in Europe, which have very low populations even to this day, and which also might have been a refuge for WHG populations to which a Uralic element was added, are the only populations where EEF falls below 40%. By the time you get to the Ukraine, the level is at 46%. According to Lazaridis et al, the average EEF level for all of Europe is 57%. If you take all of Europe west of Poland and add the Balkans, the average level would be even higher. And that is because of admixture not with a pigmentation gene, but with actual Neolithic peoples, and it seems to me that this admixture took place in Europe at different times, and sometimes at multiple times depending on the location. So, I find this talk of "replacement" rather misleading. The only replacement that occurred seems to have occurred with yDNA R lineages, and I'm not convinced that we won't find that certain y lineages have selective advantages which we don't yet understand.

In terms of the Basques specifically, their EEF levels don't require any special explanation so far as I can see. Their 60% level fits in perfectly with their geographic location in Europe, in between the 70% level of the Spanish to their south and the 60% and perhaps higher levels of France to their north. This also fits in with the location that some scholars have posited for their ethnogenesis, which is southwestern France.
 
...............

In terms of the Basques specifically, their EEF levels don't require any special explanation so far as I can see. Their 60% level fits in perfectly with their geographic location in Europe, in between the 70% level of the Spanish to their south and the 60% and perhaps higher levels of France to their north. This also fits in with the location that some scholars have posited for their ethnogenesis, which is southwestern France.

really Angela you are right level is not 60 % but 70 %; to use the good figures it is better to speculate.

The most appropriate issued theory is that of BernardSeicher, which turns problem: he thinks that basques speak a language of origin of the group R1 and asks question if the air of the augment corresponds to a pidgin zone from which langage IE comes. Therefore can being they could deduct that there is language proto-Indo-European not more for instance than there is proto-French language which is not a dialect in origin.
It is possible that each language has its own IE entity under a share of its origin and IE languages ​​are a result of consensus, and not a baseline
This theory as says Bernard has advantage to correspond with genetics where the others collapse.
I think this theory and reckless, if we can keep going in circles endlessly.
 
@Angela
"Also, I really don't see any substantial replacement of the Neolithic population anywhere in Europe where it previously existed in great numbers. You really can't use yDNA signatures to track this in my opinion, as they are far too volatile, and subject to drift, not to mention that we don't really understand selection in regards to yDNA."

There was an almost total replacement of the EEF y dna in central Europe. As you say there is more than one possible explanation for that of course but one of those possible explanations is the EEF farmers were over-run. Taking that possibility as a premise then leads to the question of how could the EEF percentage be high if the farmers were over-run? One possibility is the surviving EEF females had beneficial genes which were strongly selected for. Is there evidence for strong selection on those genes, yes. Is there evidence for farmer mtdna increasing over time, yes. If you work the logic backwards from those two points then it hints at the farmers being over-run.

You're right about Cucuteni of course, I am just guessing there as i am interested in them and they lived right next to the PIE zone and their disappearance overlaps the PIE transition to Yamnaya so they make an interesting candidate for a westward moving volkwanderung in the period just before the LBK population decline - but that is just speculating for fun.

 
"

There was an almost total replacement of the EEF y dna in central Europe. As you say there is more than one possible explanation for that of course but one of those possible explanations is the EEF farmers were over-run. Taking that possibility as a premise then leads to the question of how could the EEF percentage be high if the farmers were over-run? One possibility is the surviving EEF females had beneficial genes which were strongly selected for. Is there evidence for strong selection on those genes, yes. Is there evidence for farmer mtdna increasing over time, yes. If you work the logic backwards from those two points then it hints at the farmers being over-run.

This is where I have my strongest disagreement with your position. The beneficial genes to which you're referring are only partly located on the mtdna. Many of them, the pigmentation genes, for example, are part of autosomal variation. Additionally, even when combined, we would be talking about a very small percentage of genomic variation.

This *can't* have been a case where a large Bronze Age group of peoples migrated into Europe and mated with a few females of the prior population and then beneficial alleles just surfaced among a mostly newcomer population, or where just certain mtDNA lines were the subject of positive selection. Prior to Lazaridis et al, and even the prior Reich lab papers, it might have been possible to hold that position, but it is completely unsupported as things now stand.

You would never wind up with 50% EEF levels in northern Europeans in that way. When Lazaridis et al says 50% of the genome of the Germans is EEF, to take one example, they mean that the computer scanned the total genome of the three ancient samples and the total genome of modern samples, and in terms of the total autosomal make up of a population like the Germans, not just a few percentage points that could be attributable to certain beneficial alleles or to the mtDNA, it turns out that there is a 50% overlap between this modern population and the Stuttgart woman.

Even assuming that the Bronze Age populations were very large in number, and without taking into consideration the fact that even, as just one example, a slight increase of the ability to father males of the R1b and R1a lines might over thousands of years result in a dramatic shift in frequency of certain yDNA lines, the only way that such high levels of EEF could appear in northern Europeans is if these Bronze Age migrations were mostly male mediated. I think that's also a conclusion that can be drawn from the ancient mtDNA paper to which I linked upthread. A very small percentage of "new" mtDNA appears in the cultures most likely to have experienced gene flow from the east.

I don't know how to explain my thinking on this any better than I have...I just don't think admixture works in the way you envision if I am understanding you correctly.

Ed.I also think it's important to note that the "Kurgan" archaeological trail which most people link to the "Indo-Europeans" ends in Hungary. I'm not aware of any paper that claims to find evidence of large scale migration into western Europe from that point. There is also zero archaeological evidence found to date of any large scale massacre of the prior Neolithic populations of central and northern Europe, which is what you seem to be be envisaging.

Should that evidence surface, I would, of course, have to change my position. Speaking personally, I would, however, find that disturbing...I prefer not to think, absent some convincing evidence, that some of my ancestors were homicidal maniacs who virtually committed a holocaust on another set of my ancestors. It's bad enough having to accept the behavior of my Roman ancestors against my Celt-Ligurian ancestors, even if we're talking about a different level of inhumanity.

That's emotion, and my moral consciousness speaking, of course, but still...
 
@Angela

"The beneficial genes to which you're referring are only partly located on the mtdna. Many of them, the pigmentation genes, for example, are part of autosomal variation."

Yes, fair comment as I am being very sloppy in describing my thinking.

I am talking about autosomal dna **via** the maternal line not specifically mtdna. I should be more careful.

If you have
1) Two historic populations A and B
2) These two populations mix
3) Only B had copies of some advantageous alleles
4) Those advantage alleles were strongly selected for in the past.
then B's autosomal percentage **must** have increased during that period of selection because the mechanism of reproduction doesn't allow for getting those alleles separately. Kids are automatically 50%.

"
You would never wind up with 50% EEF levels in northern Europeans in that way."

A Roman foundation myth type admixture would automatically get 50% in the first generation. However in a situation where the surviving LBK population was only 10% at the start of admixture could they eventually get to 50% of autosomal via the strong selection on some of their genes? I wonder.

"as just one example, a slight increase of the ability to father males of the R1b and R1a lines might over thousands of years result in a dramatic shift in frequency of certain yDNA lines"

Sure, there are other possibilities as well.

"I think that's also a conclusion that can be drawn from the ancient mtDNA paper to which I linked upthread. A very small percentage of "new" mtDNA appears in the cultures most likely to have experienced gene flow from the east."

Yes but that's my point. A change in mtdna frequencies **if** there are two starting populations will automatically includes changes in autosomal dna through the mechanics of reproduction.

"
the "Kurgan" archaeological trail which most people link to the "Indo-Europeans" ends in Hungary"

That's what makes me wonder if events further west (if there were any) were part of a domino effect.

"
I prefer not to think, absent some convincing evidence, that some of my ancestors were homicidal maniacs who virtually committed a holocaust on another set of my ancestors"

understandable although if they'd been displaced off their own territory they may not have had a choice.

 
Now that everyone has had time to digest the latest Mesolithic La Brana (C-V20 + U5), I thought it would be a good time to revisit Basque origins based on what we have learned about Mesolithic Europe, especially Spain...


MESOLITHIC EUROS.............................. BASQUES

NO R1B ...................ALMOST ALL R1B (M269, P312)

LACTOSE INTOLERANT ..........LACTOSE PERSISTENT

VERY DARK HUE ..................OLIVE TO LIGHT SKIN

DARK HAIR.................................... VARIED

U4, U5, U8 ....................... H1, H3, H5, U'S & *'S

BRUTE .......................................GRACILE

LONG HEADED .................SHORT TO MESO HEADED

LONG FACED ...........................SHORT FACED

BLUE EYES (poss)...........................VARIED



In my mind, it has become increasing clear that Basques do not represent a relict of old Europe.
Anyone believe they are in some way a relict population?

Basques like Sardinians are the relict of Neolithic farmers which had mixed witht he Mesolithic Hunters and Gatherers of the region.
 
All interesting points which I can not comment all due to lack of knowledge, in particular linguistic.
There is one argument against Caucasian origin in that Basques are among those europeans who carry the least "Caucasus" admixture in terms of Georgian-like, etc. But they have that "Gedrosian" admixture which is very certainly a late introduction because it is absent in all neolithic and paleolithic samples of that time in west europe. So yes, something strange and somewhat exotic happened to west europe and Basque country in particular. Gedrosian is strong nowadays in Caucasus too, but the problem is that it's always entangled with "Caucasus" admixture there. I still think it is possible that Basques came from the region somewhere south of Caucasus, namely at a time where Gedrosia was yet "pure" there (if it really was there, just speculation). The Sumerian language is an isolate like basque, and some scholars linked Basque to Sumerian, although it was not accepted by the mainstream. Maybe the emergence of semitic languages around 3500 BC was accompanied by the merger and spread of "Caucasus" and SW-Asian/afroasiatic which diluted the assumed aboriginal "Gedrosian"-like peoples in that region. Maybe the proto-Basques escaped to Iberia before that happened. Place of R1b-origin would also roughly match this scenario, which would open a competing story to the Indo-European-R1b story.

Another competing theory I once read in another forum where I think 'Polako' issued the idea that Iberians and Basque R1b came from Minoans from Crete and today Basques mostly descend from ancient population of the east mediterranean, before it got admixed by other peoples. There is indeed some old R1b in Crete today. Another hint is Bull worship in both, Minoan civilization and today Iberians/Basques. Problem is that "Gedrosian" is too weak today in Crete, but who knows how it was 7000 years ago. Maybe ancient Minoans were more West-Asian-Gedrosian than the subsequent Greeks.

Interesting is also to note that the EEF/WHG/ANE table shows that ANE for 'Pais_Vasco' is higher than in all neighbouring countries incl. Italy, despite we know that ANE as well as K12b_Gedrosian (ANE and "West_Asian" admixtures are related and do overlap) was absent in West Europe before Bronze age. It would be revealing to know whether that elevated Basque ANE came along with more EEF or rather with more WHG.

That being said I'm still rather inclined towards a IEan source of ANE/Gedrosian in Basques, because Gedrosian_K12b was not confirmed anymore in Basques by Lazaridis et al admixtures (but still confirmed "West-Asian" for other west europeans), but ANE was still very strong. That would hint towards an influx from the north-east to Basque contry.
Basques remain mysterious.

Dear El Horsto

After all that reveals with Mal'ta Stuttgart, Ötzi etc. yet you still make the mistake to try to explain the origin of certain population with modern components and their modern distribution. If as near as the Iron Age the Balkans was still populated by Ötzi like people, why should we expect that during the Neolithic the Caucasus or any other part of the Near East was even remotely "Caucasus" or "Gedrosia" like?

To understand the development in the Near East we first need to understand what Caucasus_Gedrosia really is and of what it is made of. Gedrosia is ANE with farmer admixture. Caucasus is similar just with some more additional farmer admixture. Basically what we see is a ANE admixture spreading more into Western parts of the Near East and the Caucasus from the eastern and northern shores (Iranian Plateau, South_Central Asia and the Pontic_Caspian Steppes) and mixing with the farmer populations. Gedrosia and Caucasus are the results of these mixings. Mal'ta wasn't Gedrosia_Caucasus admixed but some of the genes inside the Mal'ta genome are ancestral to Gedrosia_Caucasus_Kalash and formed these components.

The "Gedrosia" in Basques is likely an Indo European signature.
 
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.

Does it strike anyone odd that the two languages that are spoken in Western Europe are:
1) An Ergative-Absolutive-Agglutinative language with some typological similarities to proto-Kartevelian
2) A Centum language

??
Relevant question

quote_icon.png
Post? par ElHorsto
That would hint towards an influx from the north-east to Basque contry.
Basques remain mysterious.
This is a beautiful conclusion.
You are on the same conclusion as EM Hemingway.
And I appreciate that it be so, our mystery our difference; is our treasure.
 
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Dear El Horsto

After all that reveals with Mal'ta Stuttgart, Ötzi etc. yet you make the mistake to try to explain the origin of certain population with modern components and their modern distribution.

I still take them into account, yes.

If as near as the Iron Age the Balkans was still populated by Ötzi like people,

You mean the Thracian sample? The Balkans is not the Near-East and I don't think he resembles Sardinians in particular. I think the authors concluded that because the Thracian was mostly south-european and Sardinians are the most south-european-like today. And I think it's because in many admixtures the 'Caucasus' component gets subjugated by 'mediterranean'. And regarding Ötzi, he in fact showed some hints of 'Caucasus' admixture (10-20% in some runs) when compared to Gök4 who had none in the same runs, so there must have been some difference already.

why should we expect that during the Neolithic the Caucasus or any other part of the Near East was even remotely "Caucasus" or "Gedrosia" like?

I think 'Caucasus' started to spread in the near-east while the yet non-'Caucasus' farmers spread to europe - yes, during the neolithic. Otherwise I find it hard to explain how the whole near-east including Arabia is flooded by 'Caucasus' today. Even assuming that you are right, 'Caucasus' eventually made it into the near-east and Basques must have escaped before 'Caucasus' arrival (under assumption of this one particular theory that Basques have a possible Caucasus link, which I don't really believe). Else, Kartvelian language (again assuming a basque link) must have developed in a 0% 'Caucasus' population, which I find not plausible given that 'Caucasus' is modal in Georgians today.

Also the Caucasus mountains provide the environment for isolation and development of specific autosomal components in small pockets. Also north-east europe is more 'Caucasus' admixed today, while north-west europe is more 'Gedrosia' admixed, despite NE europe has less farmer admixture. It is one of the reasons why I don't think that 'Caucasus' is just 'Gedrosia' plus a little more farmer admixture.

To understand the development in the Near East we first need to understand what Caucasus_Gedrosia really is and of what it is made of. Gedrosia is ANE with farmer admixture. Caucasus is similar just with some more additional farmer admixture. Basically what we see is a ANE admixture spreading more into Western parts of the Near East and the Caucasus from the eastern and northern shores (Iranian Plateau, South_Central Asia and the Pontic_Caspian Steppes) and mixing with the farmer populations. Gedrosia and Caucasus are the results of these mixings. Mal'ta wasn't Gedrosia_Caucasus admixed but some of the genes inside the Mal'ta genome are ancestral to Gedrosia_Caucasus_Kalash and formed these components.

In my understanding Mal'ta was directly ancestral to 'Gedrosia' and Kalash only, but not to 'Caucasus'. 'Caucasus' is certainly related, but it is not clear at all how.

The "Gedrosia" in Basques is likely an Indo European signature.

Sure, most likely Indo European or other metal working culture from the east, but I was also musing about some other indepentend possibilities.
 
I agree with that and would only add that the ANE probably also spread into Europe from a more northerly region as well. I see it as an advance along a very long north/south front.

As far as the Basques are concerned, and indeed southwestern France and Iberia in general, the migrations from Central Europe, dated to around 2000 B.C. are probably the source of this ANE. Based on the currently available evidence, these peoples would have been primarily R1b, but much diluted autosomally compared to the original source populations, and already carrying EEF as well as WHG and ANE, which is why the Basques remain 60% EEF, and only 11% ANE.

In terms of overall percentages for the three major components, the Basque numbers are precisely what one would expect them to be given their geographical location in Europe; therefore, I don't see how any exotic source for them is either required or logical.

The only "mystery" is why they don't, like their neighbors, speak an Indo-European language.
 
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