Question Need help with my finnic heritage!

[LaSentinelle]

Salvete omnes!
So, recently I was overviewing my various test results and found out that most of them show some (anywhere from 12% to 40%) affinity towards finnic populations of Europe. Considering, there are more than one and they're quite different from one another, naturally a question arose.
How do I actually tell how finnic I am genetics-wise and which of the modern populations are the closest to me?

I've used countless calculators and all of them show different results, some of which contradict each other. As some of you might know, besides Finns and Estonians there are various finnic tribes living in Russia, many of which have had quite a turbulent history of migrations and mixing with their neighbours. Some mixed with turkics, some with slavs, other with iranic tribes a long time ago.
However, each time I run my coordinates through some calculator I get wild results like Ingrians and Karelians being closer to me than Erzyans and Mokshans (Erzyans and Mokshans are Volga Finns-or Mordvins- who form a single cluster) followed by Estonians and Finns proper, who are much closer to Ingrians and Karelians (Karelian virtually is a dialect of Finnish). Some calculators put either Mokshans or Erzyans as my closest Finnic population. Others say I'm 20% Finnish and that Mokshans and Erzyans are too far away from me genetics-wise.

How can this be and what should I do in order to determine once and for all which Finnic population is the closest to me?
Gratias vobis ago!

 

[ssha_cha7]

I wrote a long reply but wanted to simplify.

*DNAGenics has tons of calculators
*MDLD World 22 has been fairly reliable for me, Finnish speaking
*Orbis Terrarum has very high Finnish and Saami estimates for me
*Check GEDMatch matches with @.RU emails, with MDLP World 22 to see if they are weighted towards a Finnish group
*Eurogenes 36 may provide a solid baseline minimum for Fennoscandian

Also worth noting Russian Genotek, I think, does not separate Ingrian and Karelian. They are one item.

 

[ssha_cha7]

I'd also say Myheritage was great for me, in this regard. My Swedish branch has clear eastern asian phenotype features, and my matches, too. They've provided the clearest answer to this:

 

[Duarte]

I wish I could help you. However, I don't know much about the history of migrations to Fennoscandia over the millennia and centuries. I wouldn't know how to define which would be the best ancestral and/or modern population references to obtain the best population mix for the natives of the region. The truth is that within the spectrum of ethnic groups that live and interact within the same geographic area there is always a certain degree of overlap since ethnogenesis has much in common. The results of the calculators depend heavily on the samples contained in their database and their algorithms. It is not uncommon for different calculators to display different, but geographically and historically related, populations for the same individual. In my case, I always move between populations from various regions of the Iberian Peninsula and if the calculator I am using does not have a good number of samples from that region (samples from Portugal are rare or non-existent, for example), in my case populations from Italy and/or France will always be captured, giving me a result that ends up giving an exotic mix (in the case of someone with Iberian ancestry like me) and with distances that end up not being the best. I hope that some member who is moving around here can effectively help you in clarifying your specific question.

 

[LaSentinelle]

I wrote a long reply but wanted to simplify.

*DNAGenics has tons of calculators
*MDLD World 22 has been fairly reliable for me, Finnish speaking
*Orbis Terrarum has very high Finnish and Saami estimates for me
*Check GEDMatch matches with @.RU emails, with MDLP World 22 to see if they are weighted towards a Finnish group
*Eurogenes 36 may provide a solid baseline minimum for Fennoscandian

Also worth noting Russian Genotek, I think, does not separate Ingrian and Karelian. They are one item.

There's also an issue with these results that stems from many finnic or mixed finnic tribes/peoples being labeled as 'Russian' or 'Russian_North' or some particular Russian town like 'Russian_Kostroma' or 'Russian_Vyatka' - and if you know nothing about these places you'd think that these are just sub-populations of Russians when in fact, these are mixed Russian-Finnic populations.
And a lot of the time these exact mixed populations are simply marked as 'Russian', which also adds to the overall(mine) confusion.
Genotek doesn't even separate Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Erzya and Moksha. It literally just says 'You come from a single ethnic population' and then it just lists five different ethnicities (the ones I mentioned just then - however it groups Erzyans and Mokshans under 'Mordvins')

Here it says 'West Finnic'

Four ways

MDLP W-22

Here you can also see something Germanic for some reason? I don't know which populations are getting mixed up, but there's definitely some sort of an issue going on, as in there's some admixture in me which gives me either something 'Germanic' or something 'West Finnic' or 'Baltic'

The 'Orbis Terrarum' one you recommended seems all over the place, however it at least shows me some Sami (and 17% Germanic? I wonder if you remove those samples these 17% would either get absorbed by Sami or get turned into 'Finnish')

Here's the Eurogenes 36, but what's the 'Baseline minimum' for Fennoscandia? Is there a value where you can say 'if you have less than X amount of Fennoscandia in you, then it's just noise and you don't have any Finnic ancestry' and vice versa?

Thanks for the replies, it helps me a lot to get a clear picture!

 

[ssha_cha7]

There's also an issue with these results that stems from many finnic or mixed finnic tribes/peoples being labeled as 'Russian' or 'Russian_North' or some particular Russian town like 'Russian_Kostroma' or 'Russian_Vyatka' - and if you know nothing about these places you'd think that these are just sub-populations of Russians when in fact, these are mixed Russian-Finnic populations.
And a lot of the time these exact mixed populations are simply marked as 'Russian', which also adds to the overall(mine) confusion.
Genotek doesn't even separate Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Erzya and Moksha. It literally just says 'You come from a single ethnic population' and then it just lists five different ethnicities (the ones I mentioned just then - however it groups Erzyans and Mokshans under 'Mordvins')View attachment 17149
Here it says 'West Finnic'
View attachment 17150
Four ways
View attachment 17151
MDLP W-22
View attachment 17152
Here you can also see something Germanic for some reason? I don't know which populations are getting mixed up, but there's definitely some sort of an issue going on, as in there's some admixture in me which gives me either something 'Germanic' or something 'West Finnic' or 'Baltic'

View attachment 17153
The 'Orbis Terrarum' one you recommended seems all over the place, however it at least shows me some Sami (and 17% Germanic? I wonder if you remove those samples these 17% would either get absorbed by Sami or get turned into 'Finnish')
View attachment 17154
Here's the Eurogenes 36, but what's the 'Baseline minimum' for Fennoscandia? Is there a value where you can say 'if you have less than X amount of Fennoscandia in you, then it's just noise and you don't have any Finnic ancestry' and vice versa?

Thanks for the replies, it helps me a lot to get a clear picture!

I'm shooting in the dark here, but I'll propose my own rapid theory. Eurogenes 36 for me, was by about 10-50%, my lowest Finnish estimate. If this is consistent you could work on a theory of 16% bare-minimum, distinctly Finnish ancestry (north or south).

Then Orbis Terrarum seems to be very happy about the Sámi, which could perhaps pragmatically generally be an upper-estimate for northern Finnish groups closely related to the Sámi, such as Ingrian, Karelian, and so on.

So I'd deduce you are a minimum 16% Finnish, and maximum, half of this is Ingrian and Karelian. Again as a wild shot in the dark.

Match analysis is also key here. Where people live, and how they identify, is perhals the stronger reality.

I'm an amateur but love these regions so happy to toss in a little bit of "advice"

 

[ssha_cha7]

As for Germany in the Oracle, I again present myself only as a hobbyist, however I will include a map of Germany and R1a. Eastern Germany has Slavic influence and Germany does not necessarily equate Germanic. I'm not sure if this exactly applies to the reference samples in question, but I'm always interested in EE in Eastern Germany

 

[ssha_cha7]

And the Eurogenes 36 map which may help interpret and apply results. It's pretty good for decoding the basic components

 

[ssha_cha7]

I'm going a little overboard but an example of the Fennoscandian category. This is a Mordvin .RU match of mine. You can see how ~~ 75% Mordvin / 25% Germanic is scoring about 10% Fennoscandian and 2% Volga. Doesn't seem like much. Mordvins seem to bolster East_Central_Euro

I think this supports your theory you have some significant North Finnish that Genotek is glossing over

 

[LaSentinelle]

I'm going a little overboard but an example of the Fennoscandian category. This is a Mordvin .RU match of mine. You can see how ~~ 75% Mordvin / 25% Germanic is scoring about 10% Fennoscandian and 2% Volga. Doesn't seem like much. Mordvins seem to bolster East_Central_Euro

I think this supports your theory you have some significant North Finnish that Genotek is glossing overView attachment 17168View attachment 17169

From talking to people on other forums, they simply ask me to refer to where my ancestors lived (even though I only know only one side of my family and the other is a mystery to me), based on what I told them they put me in the 'Tsna Mordvin' group (Erzyans and Mokshans who in ye olde times lived along the river Tsna(a tributary of river Moksha) and occupied a large chunk of what is now known as the 'Tambov Oblast' in Russia.
I mean, I don't mind, but I'd still not want to rule out the possibility of there being any western finnic groups hiding somewhere down my bloodline. My having Erzya and Moksha ancestors makes perfect sense, however.
Thanks for all the input, ssha_cha7! It really helped in my research! I guess my best shot now is to try and dig up any archives I can get my hands on to figure out whether my distant ancestors might of come here from some place up north.

 

[ssha_cha7]

No problem always happy to try

I think it's very likely you have a northern "Slavicized Finn" component carried by Russian_North with connections to Ingria, Karelia, and slightly lesser extent South/East Finland, and as always in the the north, the possibility of East Saami.

Best of luck

 

[ssha_cha7]

PS (sorry it is nearly my favorite ancestry topic) the Saami lands in Russia used to extend much more South, much closer to Karelia than today.

By 1500 I think there were still settlements along the White Sea incorporating into surrounding communities. And today everyone knows their very small "territory"

Anyway I don't mean to be overbearing. Best of luck in your research