Immigration Mosque plans bring controversy to Tuscan town

[Wang]

Mosque plans bring controversy to Tuscan town

Mayor backs Islamic center's construction, but residents are 'very afraid'

This charged atmosphere has affected life in Colle di Val d’Elsa, where the Muslim community and the mayor have been working to build a new, larger, Islamic center to accommodate the town’s growing number of Muslims and to promote cultural exchange.


One woman spoke of seeing Muslim youths train for jihad on television, and a man said that the only reason a park was being built alongside the mosque was to accommodate all the Muslim children.


“Well, when you have multiple wives, what do you expect,” he said, asking that his name not be used with that comment.

Many feared that due to the size of the mosque, Muslims from across Tuscany would flock to Colle di Val d’Elsa for Friday services and camp out during Muslim holidays, making the area a no-go zone for them.

“Why put an Islamic Vatican here on our terrace?” asked Viviana Mastacchi. “Imagine how it’ll be during Ramadan, imagine all the confusion,” the 39-year-old waitress said.

“I’m a Catholic, why would I go there?’ asked retiree Folto Massaini.


Sharki, a Moroccan who came to Italy when she was 13, said she had non-Muslim Italian friends at school but did not see them outside of class.

“It’s not that I don’t like them; they are just very different from us; they go to discos, they eat out at restaurants, and we don’t,” she said.



Link to the article.

 

[Mars Man]

Thanks for sharing Wang; that was an interesting piece of news. I guess the Muslem population is already large enough to support such a plan. It'll be interesting to watch and see how it turns out--for the positive or for the negative.

 

[Maciamo]

I am personally against the construction of mosques (or new churches) in Europe. The tendency is now to tear down unused churches or convert historic ones into pubs, night clubs, hotels or even flats. I, like most Europeans, still see Muslim immigrants as people who have to adapt to their host society (i.e. become non religious) or go back to their country of origin.

 

[No-name]

I am personally against the construction of mosques (or new churches) in Europe. The tendency is now to tear down unused churches or convert historic ones into pubs, night clubs, hotels or even flats. I, like most Europeams, still see Muslim immigrants as people who have to adapt to their host socity (i.e. become non religious) or go back to their country of origin.

Wow, I thought that type of hegemony died in the mid 20th century: Drop your religion or leave. Has religious intolerance in Europe grown so acceptable that many people are actually opposed to the expression and free practice of it? Tear down the churches, bury your own history and tradition, become "non-religious"! Do we all have to be the same in every way?

Whether this town wants a Mosque or not is really none of my business. I am just shocked and saddened by the "lose your religion or leave" tenor of the statement.

 

[Revenant]

Echoing sabro's feeling....

 

[Maciamo]

I wouldn't say that for all religions. Islam is a very particular religion, as it compels its followers to do things even if they are against the country's laws. There are numerous examples, like sacrificing animals in some rituals.

What's more it forbids things which are vital for the integration of Muslim immigrants into a non-Muslim society, such as marrying non Muslims (and even dating non Muslims), empowering women or giving them autonomy (e.g. single-mothers, female head of family, female boss...), or being gay.

Other things may not be obligation but are followed by most Muslim immigrants and does not help their social integration and acceptance. For example, women wearing a headscarf, men not respecting the authority coming from a woman (e.g. female teachers, policewomen...), eating in special "halal" restaurants, etc.

Don't even get me started in Jihad and the importance of converting non Muslims...

All those things make an enormous difference between Muslim immigrants and immigrants from another religion (Buddhist, Jainist, Shintoist, Jewish, Christian...).

If you can't understand that, you have clearly never lived in a non Muslim country or city with a major community of Muslim immigrants. The integration problems in such countries (Benelux, France, Germany...) are real, and that is why they make the headlines so often. I never hear of any problem caused by the numerous European, Chinese or (non-Muslim) Indian immigrants though. Almost always Muslims. That's why I am not opposed to Buddhist or Hindu temples being built in Europe. They are welcome as long as their followers keep integrating well. Mosques just reinforced the current lack of integration of Muslims.

 

[No-name]

Thanks for the clarification. Is there any indication that this mosque is being built by a sect that sacrifices animals or preaches violent anti-Western Jihaad?

In the US, there are Mosques in every large city, and we hardly notice. Head scarves, prohibitions on out-marriage... are not major concerns. I'm certain the greater Los Angeles area has a large population of muslims. But it also has a large population of Buddhists, Mormons, Scientologists, Hindus, Satanists, Hedonists and People practicing Santeria. As much as we try to be a melting pot and as much anti-Muslim slag you hear after 9-11 there really isn't a whole lot to get excited about. People just go about their business.

In California, it is not illegal to slaughter animals at a home or church. I know Santarians do it all the time and in some neighborhoods there is a botanica on every corner.

 

[No-name]

Lots of religions and people from other cultures have dietary restrictions and special restaurants and gender rules, clothing restrictions and traditions that others may find strange. Heck you don't have to be a religion to eat differently, speak differently or dress differently. Jews wear Yarmulkahs and eat in Kosher restaruants, Sikhs wear turbans, don't cut their hair and carry a cermonial knife called a kirpan... Native Americans have their own religions and culture... and lots of parents want their kids to marry people exactly like them. I'm not certain that integrating is all that important.

 

[Maciamo]

Thanks for the clarification. Is there any indication that this mosque is being built by a sect that sacrifices animals or preaches violent anti-Western Jihaad?

To the best of my knowledge, all Muslim sects (there are only two main ones anyway : Sunni and Shia) sacrifice animals and preach Jihad.

In the US, there are Mosques in every large city, and we hardly notice. Head scarves, prohibitions on out-marriage... are not major concerns. I'm certain the greater Los Angeles area has a large population of muslims. But it also has a large population of Buddhists, Mormons, Scientologists, Hindus, Satanists, Hedonists and People practicing Santeria. As much as we try to be a melting pot and as much anti-Muslim slag you hear after 9-11 there really isn't a whole lot to get excited about. People just go about their business.

The US only has 0.6% of Muslims nationwide (Wikipedia stats). That's about 1.5 million people in a country 3x bigger than the EU. France alone has 6 million Muslims and tiny Belgium 1 million (i.e. in both cases 10% of the population). About 20-25% of Brussels' population is Muslim. Is there any US city with a a population over 1 million in the same (or even slightly similar) situation ?

Add to this that 99% of these Muslims are poor economic migrants, and the vast majority of them do not speak properly any of the 3 official languages of Belgium. Naturally uneployment rate are extremely high in these communities (who would hire someone with almost no education and who doesn't speak the country's language properly when there are other choices ?). I think you have to come here to understand.

My wife doesn't know anything about Islam (or Christainity for that matter) or Arabic people, and has travelled a lot around the world, including Muslim countries, but immediately after coming to Belgium she said that she categorically refused to go shopping alone in Brussels main shopping street ("Rue Neuve") because she didn't feel safe with all the gangs of disoccupied Moroccan males in the street. Fortunately there are other shopping areas with much fewer Arabs, otherwise she could never live in Brussels. Yet, Muslims didn't bother her or me when we travelled to Egypt, Palestine, India, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

When I was in Jerusalem I even chose to stay in a Palestinian (so Arabic Muslim) guesthouse rather than in the Jewish part (although I have absolutely nothing against Jews, and even admire many of them like Freud, Einstein, etc.).I enjoyed chatting with the Arab owner. I also met very nice Moroccan people who were travelling or studying at univerty in Europe. But they were always richer Moroccans from Morocco, not the poor and uneducated immigrants Morocco doesn't want and send to Europe to alliviate its economic and social problems.

Sorry, but the majority of the Moroccan immigrants in Belgium are scum, and even richer Moroccan tourists here would ackowledge that. It is seriously hard to find a male Moroccan under 35 who won't spit and shout insults at passerby in the street all day long. Why do you think 3/4 of the non-Muslims in Antwerp (which has similar situation to Brussels) vote for the Vlaams Belang, a far-right party that wants those Muslims out of Belgium ?

 

[No-name]

Some people seem to have the same negative sentiments about Mexicans in our country... and sixty years ago it was the bitterness of WWII that drove negative sentiment against Americans of Japanese decent.

Also rude and dangerous gangs are not exclusive to Muslim culture. Unfortunately we seem to have them everywhere.

 

[Maciamo]

Some people seem to have the same negative sentiments about Mexicans in our country...

Yes, and I really wonder why. Mexicans are Christian like most American. They speak Spanish, which is one of the closest relative of English (and American English has indeed imported many words from Spanish). Last but not least, the South-West of the USA did belong to Mexico before and part of its culture and history (e.g. city names, architecture, food...) are now part and parcel of American culture. So what's the big fuss about ? Just because they are poorer ? North African immigrants in Europe are as poor, more numerous, and don't have any of the cultural affinities I have cited above.

Add to this that the local population wasn't ready to become an "immigration country" like the USA has always been. It's ironic to hear American citizens say they don't want immigrants when they are all immigrants. Europeans have been in their respective part of Europe since prehistory, or at latest since the 5-6th century (e.g. Anglo-Saxons crossing the Channel, although that as big a move as going from N.Y. to Pensilvania !).

 

[No-name]

It is one of those rich and interesting things about my country- where people can be accepted and rejected simultaneously. Our histories, cultures and economies are so intertwined and yet separate. Where we can be exclusive and inclusive, tolerant and intollerant, open and closed. An "issue" blows in and we immediately become polarized, and our opinions entrenched... and then it blows over and we go back to our conspicuous consumption and selfish indulgences. I'm certain that Europeans must have a similar trait.

 

[Maciamo]

It is one of those rich and interesting things about my country- where people can be accepted and rejected simultaneously. Our histories, cultures and economies are so intertwined and yet separate. Where we can be exclusive and inclusive, tolerant and intollerant, open and closed. An "issue" blows in and we immediately become polarized, and our opinions entrenched... and then it blows over and we go back to our conspicuous consumption and selfish indulgences. I'm certain that Europeans must have a similar trait.

I am not sure that the USA is a role-model of tolerance and integration of immigrants from different cultures. After all, it is one of the country with the highest violent murder rate, and one of the democracies with the strongest religious conservatism and intolerance to liberal social issues (abortion, drugs, etc.).

 

[No-name]

I wasn't holding it up as a role model. We definitely seem to encourage tolerance and murder, equality and elitism... I think I was trying to stress these contrasts.

And there are a great many of us relgious "conservatives" that are politically liberal. Check out www.sojo.net.

 

[Bosniak]

I, like most Europeans, still see Muslim immigrants as people who have to adapt to their host society (i.e. become non religious) or go back to their country of origin.

Well, believe me when I say it. There is no doubt that I would go back to my country of origin which is Bosnia. But the problem is that non-Muslims (which is in this case the Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs, then also Greeks and others) tried to not only destroy my country, but they also tried to exterminate us Bosniaks (mostly known as Bosnian Muslims). And now after all that they did to my people and my country I have very hard to move back and pretend that nothing happend.

So it's easy to say to someone leave this country. I don't say that Muslims are perfect, but there was no difference between Muslim Bosniaks and Christian Croats and Serbs during the Yugoslavia days. We lived like atheist (mostly) during the cummunist era, we drunk alcohol had sex with each other no, got married to each other no matter of religions or nationalite. And we wasn't even recognized as a ethnic group of people (Bosniaks) (!) and we still didn't make trouble. And what did the Christians do to us as soon as Tito died? They were attacked and killed civilians, they raped our women, they preformed genocide and ethnic cleasning.

And we are not just some newcommers to Europe, we are europeans.

You can blame Islam as much as you want. But history speaks for it self. As far as I know during these two world wars, non of them had anything to do with Islam or Muslims. Not to mention how the atheist Stalin treated his people and how many died during his era.

And it wasn't the Muslims who invade all the world from Alaska to New Zealand.

As Erdogan said, the west sees the demonstrations in Turkey, but they don't see the killing of civilians in Palestine or Syria nor did they do anything to prevent the raping and killing of Muslims in Bosnia. So you can't compare the jihad to what west is doing to Muslims. And when we come to west to be what we wish to be ( Muslims ) then people like you wanna give us a ultimatum to give up our faith or move back to the war zone, the war zone the west brought to us.

 

[Fire Haired]

the fact is that muslims are a threat to the western world. this does not mean we treat everyone like a terrorist. My city is extremely extremely diverse one of the most diverse areas in america i think the world. i have grown up around muslims. pretty much the vast majority are normal people but there are som radicales even american immgrants. a muslims family from iraq i know says tol us the clothing the more radicle ones wear. they say they plan to destroy america within or something like that. also Muslims have told us when Islam is involved in a subject or a conflict with america some ordinary people do become more radical.

in my opinion the everyday Muslim is not a bad guy. but when u get a origination of Muslims under leadership that leadership is ofenlley radicle and can become a threat within a country but probably not in america or Europe but possible. The Muslims world is lead by dangerous radicle countries that want to destroy the western world then of course there are terrorist. i think west would let these Muslim mosques or centers be created that is what well i guess american government is very important freedom of religion. but always be ready for something radicle and if radicle stuff happens crack down on it with ur government and find a way to stop it from happening again.

 

[Fire Haired]

I am not sure that the USA is a role-model of tolerance and integration of immigrants from different cultures. After all, it is one of the country with the highest violent murder rate, and one of the democracies with the strongest religious conservatism and intolerance to liberal social issues (abortion, drugs, etc.).

america is the land of immigrants everyone as immigrant ancestry except maybe blacks. also our murder rates have nothing to do with race our politics. what is so bad about religious conservatism what u think where all raciest and not accepting we accept people our country was made by very religious christian people and is based on relgous freedom and more. ur are not accepting us read the bible see what Christianity is built on tell me that we are about hating other people was jesus like that. Well u guys are in tolerant to our social idea which by the way are not built on hate like u think.

Abortion u think killing a unborn human is a good thing plus the person who started it was a raciest. It does not matter if u kill it when the sperm its the egg that is stopping human life besides nearly 100% of abortion is has body parts and DNA i wonder what the Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroups percentages of aborted children is maybe u should make a thread about that Maciamo. Drugs tell me how that is good for society ruins peoples lives

our media is liberal like Europe so i would guess the more where influenced and people with my opinon our possed as haters the more liberal the country will become. Well alot of us think europe has gone to far which is apart of the reaso the western world will fall like the western roman empire did.

 

[adamo]

"America is a land of immigrants, everyone has immigrant ancestry except maybe blacks." Am I the only one that realizes how funny that statement is lolllll

 

[C-in-fl-usa]

An easy answer. Get rid of religion. Sad thing is... is that Christian churches are in Muslim countries but we find the opposite unbearable.

Question: Can Islam stand to be in the west with it's music, clothing freedom, freedom for women, and still survive as it is? Can Islam be short-circuited and done away with through westernization?

 

[C-in-fl-usa]

"America is a land of immigrants, everyone has immigrant ancestry except maybe blacks." Am I the only one that realizes how funny that statement is lolllll

Well African-Americans are immigrants but not by choice.