Magna Grecia paper

[MOESAN]

??? A new troll?

 

[Jovialis]

Probably just a spam bot, but we generally don't delete them until we are 100% certain.

 

[Jovialis]

These Greeks were of Euboean origin, who spoke an Ionic dialect.

 

[Jovialis]

 

[Francesco]

It's interesting to note how several founding cities were Ionian and Eolian west asian poleis.
I wonder what happened to this study. the genetic composition of the greek poleis from the arcaic to the hellenistic period is a key pointin in understanding the deomgraphic history of the central mediterranean region, yet it remains basically unexplored as a topic

 

[Jovialis]

It's interesting to note how several founding cities were Ionian and Eolian west asian poleis.
I wonder what happened to this study. the genetic composition of the greek poleis from the arcaic to the hellenistic period is a key pointin in understanding the deomgraphic history of the central mediterranean region, yet it remains basically unexplored as a topic

I would certainly like to see it published.

I would also like to explore other colonies from the various sub-ethnicities of the Ancient Greeks.

Herodotus is duly noted as a dubious source, and the Dorian Invasion is considered by scholars to be very tenuous. Nevertheless, as Skourtanioti et al. 2023 shows, there was indeed an increase of Central European-like ancestry in the LBA. Thus, instead of an Invasion, it was likely a migration from Northern Greece that came to allow the Dorian dialect to dominate, and gave rise to states like Sparta. Nevertheless, it is tempting to wonder if the reason why the Euboean Ionic-speakers, and Ionics still look Mycenaean-like, is attributed to Herodotus' accounts that the Dorians expelled the Mycenaeans to the peripheries, after they came to dominate the Peloponnesus.

 

[Salento]

Ancient Greece Index from LivDNA:

 

[Jovialis]

@Francesco

There followed two great events that upset the dialectal distribution within the Greek world. First, about 1100 BCE the Dorian invasions brought speakers of West Greek southward, then into the Peloponnese, and finally into the Aegean. Some pre-Dorian Greek populations were expelled from their homes and emigrated eastward to the west coast of Anatolia and to Cyprus. Others, who remained where they were, became more or less thoroughly Dorian in speech. It has long been thought that some of the features that West Thessalian and, even more, Boeotian (both of which are Aeolic) shared in the 1st millennium with West Greek can be attributed to “recent” influences; on the other hand, some Doric dialects of the 1st millennium (e.g., in Crete) show sporadic traces of features attributable to an Arcado-Cypriot substratum. The other subsequent event, which is of a different sort, was the great colonization movement that began in the 8th century BCE. Each group of emigrants took the speech of its mother city and planted it in the new foundation. Thus, there developed side by side on the shores of southern Italy and Sicily a totally new grouping of Greek dialects—Euboean Ionic at Cumae; Laconian Doric at Tarentum and Heraclea; Achaean at Sybaris, Croton, and Metapontum; Locrian at Locri Epizephyrii; Corinthian Doric at Syracuse; and so on.

Toward the middle of the 1st millennium BCE, the geographic distribution of the dialects (insofar as they are known directly through inscriptions) is, briefly, as follows:

West Group (Doric in the widest sense)
(1) North-West Greek: Aetolia, Locris (colony—Locri Epizephyrii), Phocis,
(2) Saronic Doric: the territory of Corinth (colonies—Corcyra, Syracuse), the Megarid (colonies—Megara Hyblaea, Selinus, Byzantium), Eastern Argolid,
(3) Western Argolid,
(4) South-East Aegean Doric: Melos and Thera (colony—Cyrene), Cos, Rhodes (colonies—Gela, Acragas),
(5) Crete,
(6) Laconia (colonies—Tarentum, Heraclea), Messenia,
(7) Achaea (colonies—Ithaca, Sybaris),
(8) Elis.

Aeolic Group
(1) Boeotia,
(2) Thessaly,
(3) Lesbos and Asiatic Aeolis.

Arcado-Cypriot Group
(1) Arcadia,
(2) Cyprus,
(3) Pamphylia (mixed with West Greek and Aeolic).

Ionic-Attic Group
(1) Attica,
(2) Euboea (colonies—Catana, Cumae),
(3) Northern Cyclades,
(4) Asiatic Ionia (colonies—foundations in Pontus [Black Sea]).

Greek language - Alphabet, Dialects, Origins | Britannica

Greek language - Alphabet, Dialects, Origins: The Mycenaean script dropped out of use in the 12th century when the Mycenaean palaces were destroyed, perhaps in connection with the Dorian invasions. For a few centuries the Greeks seem to have been illiterate. In the 8th century at the latest but...

www.britannica.com

 

[Kari]

@Francesco

do we have the samples?

 

[Jovialis]

do we have the samples?

As of right now, we only have samples from Himera, which was Ionic/Dorian. But was in the Ionic sphere of influence according to maps I've seen. Interesting, we do see many which are Mycenaean-like, but also some which are South Italian-like, which I suspect are Dorians. Considering that LBA samples from around 1100 BC in the Skourtanioti paper are South Italian-like.

It would be very Interesting to see the Tarentum samples, or Korton.

 

[Jovialis]

Based on this map, all of the colonies outside of Italy (red dots) comes from Ionic speakers. There's also two established within Italy; others are colonies born from colonies, i.e Himera (Ionic/Dorian)

This also makes sense because Lazaridis showed that Roman-era Anatolians received Mycenaean admixture.

 

[Jovialis]

Based on this map, all of the colonies outside of Italy (red dots) comes from Ionic speakers. There's also two established within Italy; others are colonies born from colonies, i.e Himera (Ionic/Dorian)

This also makes sense because Lazaridis showed that Roman-era Anatolians received Mycenaean admixture.

 

[Jovialis]

^^
It also makes sense, because if you just add a small but significant amount of North-Eastern ancestry from the MA, it would make sense for Modern day Northern Greece.

 

[Jovialis]

FYI, Mycenaean-like is probably a tighter cluster, considering some are mixed with Sicani.

I also think the range for Dorians is broader than what I had circled, this was just to zero in on the two samples in Himera: