US Elections Let's talk about the election results

[Mike Cash]

The US Constitution does not say that politics and religion should be separated. This is a common misconception. As an Atheist myself, it wouldn't bother me if the Constitution did say that....but it doesn't.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The United States can't have an Established Church, nor can any religion receive special favor or recognition over another. But there is nothing which says that any individual or elected official may not express his personal religious views or act in accordance with them. Not only does nothing say they can't...something says they can "Congress shall make no law.....prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Nothing there about "prohibiting the free exercise thereof, except in the field of political thought or the execution of elected office"

 

[Duo]

Umm, the re-election of Bush in my view is a sign that Europe needs to start developing its own identity and try to become stronger. If the US and its people are willing to step on anyone and everyone for their interests, whatever they may be, then a counterbalancing force is needed. The groupthink syndrome of the Bush administration was efficient in catching the public with their propganda and atmoshphere of fear, and as insane as some policies may seem, americans will support them, therefore, another side of the spectrum is need to stop the US from acting the way it does. I mean c'mon really, the pollution alone in the world that the US emitts is unaccptable, the Alps in Europe are begining to melt and climate changes are become more apparant, and why, so that some 16 yr old teenager in the US can drive his SUV.

 

[Fantt]

Just because the constitution says something and leaves out another something does not make either of those somethings morally right or wrong.

I believe the constitution also leaves open the door for congress to block Federal courts from reviewing any types of cases they see fit. Through this door could fit all sorts of horrible things - one reason, I think, why no congress has ever seen fit (as far as I know) to limit the courts in this manner.

The current congress though has already begun mumbling about limiting the courts from hearing any arguments about the legality of the words "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance. I can see a possible slippery slope where eventually they'll forbid the courts from hearing any arguments about any collusions of government and religion.

Could congress create the establishment of Christianity as a State religion and then forbid the courts from hearing cases involving that establishment?

 

[Elizabeth]

In addition, most European enjoy completely free education from kindergarten to university and completely or almost free medical care. The Euro has gone up from 0,8US$ in early 2001 when Bush became president to 1,3US$ now. That is a 60% increase. American have become 60% poorer compared to Europeans during Bush's first term.

So what does the EU have to prove to the US in terms of economic success ? Maybe it is time for American to realise that their system isn't the best just because it is American.

I believe Fantt was referring to the usual indicators of economic well-being, such as annual growth rate (around 2% for Europe ?, 3-4% for the US) and unemployment (something like 8% in the EU ?, 5.5 in the US) even under the current regressive policies and just as America is beginning to emerge from a three year recession. Although I realize these numbers were somewhat reversed until the economic boom of the '90's, it seems due to unions, heavy taxes and pensions or whatever other structural reasons European unemployment rates are almost never under 6-7 percent. :? Although of course with absurdly generous unemployment benefits it's probably almost as
advantageous to leech off the state as to actually contribute to your countries productivity.

 

[Antifederalist]

I agree with cicatriz. In 2000, Gore got more popular vote, and the situation was not as desperate for "liberals" and pacifists than it is now. I am surprised than with 15 million voters more than in 2000 and the events of Iraq, Afghanisthan, huge public deficit, higher unemployment and bad international image which Bush is responsible for, he managed to get 3,5 million votes more than 4 years ago. And I believe that Kerry was a more attractive candidate than Gore, but apparently many Americans didn't think so. That is why I will also say that is is ... unbelievable. :worried:

The current unemployment rate in the United States is 5.4%. This is what we had during the Clinton years. How is it bad now but good then?

We have experienced the largest economic growth in 20 yrs. In fact the last time our economy grew near to our current rate was during the Reagan years. Interesting that both times we experienced this growth was due to a Republican president pushing through a tax cut.

As for the deficit, we are at war.

In regards to Iraq and Afghanistan, the American people realize the importance of finishing what we started and it is better to do that with an established administration (our troops prefer this too, that's why they voted for Bush approximately 4:1).

The election results show where America is at politically, right now. Not only did Bush win decisively on Popular votes & electoral votes, but the Republican Party gained seats in both Houses.

On a side note, if anyone wants to get a "feel" of where America stands, look to the House of Representatives. If you were to look at the electoral map by state or look to the senate, NJ voted for Kerry and has 2 Liberal Democrat Senators. If you look at the House, we have 7 Democrat Representatives and have 6 Republican Reps. So even though we are a "blue state", nearly half the state is still Republican (which in this state, doesn't really mean much).

That is where anti-abortionist are wrong. Abortion laws in any developed country set a limit in the foetus development (about 8 to 12 weeks). Until that time, the brain has not yet developed, and we cannot therefore consider the foetus as a human yet. A 2 month foetus is not even the size of a mouse, and without functional brain. If you are against abortion, you must be a Jainist who believes that any animal is sacred, or the tiniest insect, and that it is a sin to kill any of them. If that is your belief, then I will have much more respect for you and accept that people would want to ban abortion. If that is because you think that it equals to murdering a human being, then I must object.

Think about this too : "Is a woman who miscarries accused of manslaughter for doing so ?"

I think it is safe to say that women do not miscarry by choice. Manslaughter requires that a person's action lead to someone's death without the intent (a depraved indifference). Unless a woman is repeatedly throwing herself down the stairs or having someone punching her in the gut to cause the miscarraige (who knows, maybe 0.01% of women do this), then I don't see living as a depraved act to cause the fetus' death.

Could you also clarify: A two month old fetus develops into a full grown fetus and then it journeys out into the world and becomes a human. So how is the fetus only a tumor at one point and a human inside another human at another point in time?

 

[Fantt]

Part of the problem with the economy, anti-federalist, is that many people lost their jobs and then got new ones that paid much less with fewer benefits. Healthcare is a lot more expensive now than it was. Living expenses are higher - if I had a long commute I would be paying $50/week or more for the gas in my SUV. The unemployment figures do not fully indicate how well people are doing.

 

[No-name]

I could go on and on about my candidate losing this election...about how he was the better candidate for all the right reasons. BUT the electorate has spoken. That's the way it works here. You lick your wounds and move on.

I think my party blew it. The republicans did a better job- about 3% better- in connecting with the people. My rant:

As a democrat- I know my party is currently out of touch with a slim majority of Americans. Those who consider "moral" issues, those concerned about security, Southern white males- even those registered as democrats favor the republican agenda-- especially in terms of "moral issues." I'm not defending these people or their point of view, but Bush represents a known quantity, security, certainty...My party has a lot of very hard work to do before the midterm elections. In two years, the DNC could take both House and Senate (wishfull thinking), but only if they start listening to the majority of suburban, family value oriented democrats that won't only switch votes, but also switch parties. Nothing in the DNC platform resonates with hard-working struggling Americans. We may look at the GOP rhetoric as a big snowjob, but more and more Americans are identifying with that world view.

Religious rant:

BamaFan:
Do you think Homosexuality is the ONLY sin? What about greed? What about adultery? (Greed and adultery are both legal) Gluttony? Sloth? What about keeping the Sabbath holy? Honoring your parents? What about tithing? (ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...there are none rightous- not one.) As a Christian you should realize that God is not some referee keeping score of our good and bads to be balanced out on judgement day. If it was all some cosmic good deeds-bad deeds balance act then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. Think about WHY the Bible says people will be going to hell. Homosexuals are going to be a minority even there.

Jesus is willing and just for forgive ALL sin. Rather than making the life of the homosexual harder and legalizing discrimination, maybe we should think of ways of reaching him or her with the gospel. Laws are weak substitutes for a changed life.

 

[Elizabeth]

Living expenses are higher - if I had a long commute I would be paying $50/week or more for the gas in my SUV. The unemployment figures do not fully indicate how well people are doing.

In your SUV, seriously ??? After all demand is one reason for record oil prices the rest of us are also forced to endure. I do agree, though, about health care costs being a major pull on growth and why companies have been so reluctant to hire in recent months.

 

[Antifederalist]

Part of the problem with the economy, anti-federalist, is that many people lost their jobs and then got new ones that paid much less with fewer benefits.

I know I would rather have a job and be able to support my family and myself then not have a job and have to suck the proverbial government teat and barely keep my family fed on unemployment. But that's just me.

Healthcare is a lot more expensive now than it was. Living expenses are higher - if I had a long commute I would be paying $50/week or more for the gas in my SUV. The unemployment figures do not fully indicate how well people are doing.

You are right, unemployment does not take into account those who run their own business, those who have given up looking for work, etc. I bring up unemployment because so many people talk about the "jobless recovery" where we have gained over a million jobs in the span of a several months and they always harp on the unemployment rate. And so I found it humorous that the unemployment rate considered Full Employment during Clinton's Administration becomes an indicator of one of the worst economies we've had in a trillion years. But, I digress.

You choose how much it costs for you to live, no one else does. If someone has a long commute, and gets/has an SUV, and gas prices go up, then it sucks to be that person--don't mean to sound like a jerk but that is how it is. Am I saying people don't need/shouldn't get SUVs? No I am not, but people have to think things through a little. Instead of an SUV, buy a minivan. They are typically better on fuel mileage than SUV's, have good to great cargo room, and can cart the kids back and forth to soccer. It seems people are buying SUV's in lieu of minivans nowadays--I guess they are more hip.

As for healthcare, you are absolutely correct. Heck, my insurance co-pay just increased about $20/pay period. Maybe if Doctors weren't practicing defensive medicine and weren't getting sued by Lawyers, like John Edwards, the cost of health services would be lower and therefore insurance costs would be lower.

 

[Fantt]

I drive an SUV because I enjoy driving SUVs. My family has a lot of stuff to haul around and they do a good job. Mine isn't a V8 and it gets decent gas mileage for an SUV. If I had had the option of purchasing a hybrid SUV I would have probably gone for it. I don't feel guilty.

AntiFederalist, is it just tough crap for the family's who have lost health care benefits? Their children should just have had the good fortune of having parents who made more money and to hell with their medical problems?

 

[Antifederalist]

I drive an SUV because I enjoy driving SUVs. My family has a lot of stuff to haul around and they do a good job. Mine isn't a V8 and it gets decent gas mileage for an SUV. If I had had the option of purchasing a hybrid SUV I would have probably gone for it. I don't feel guilty.

AntiFederalist, is it just tough crap for the family's who have lost health care benefits? Their children should just have had the good fortune of having parents who made more money and to hell with their medical problems?

No family (*edit: or individual) in America is denied healthcare. I don't see how this perception came to be. Medical insurance or not, you can go to a hospital and get taken care of.

 

[MeAndroo]

People want socialized health care and increased spending in other areas but don't want to pay higher taxes. Outside countries don't want the US interferring but complain when their trials and tribulations go unnoticed by the West. Conservatives and liberals can't go 5 minutes without calling each other a name or bashing them personally. I'd just move deep under ground...but I hear the cell phone reception is horrible.

 

[Antifederalist]

People want socialized health care and increased spending in other areas but don't want to pay higher taxes. Outside countries don't want the US interferring but complain when their trials and tribulations go unnoticed by the West. Conservatives and liberals can't go 5 minutes without calling each other a name or bashing them personally. I'd just move deep under ground...but I hear the cell phone reception is horrible.

Hey, I've gone at least 10 minutes without name calling

 

[Winter]

People want socialized health care and increased spending in other areas but don't want to pay higher taxes. Outside countries don't want the US interferring but complain when their trials and tribulations go unnoticed by the West. Conservatives and liberals can't go 5 minutes without calling each other a name or bashing them personally. I'd just move deep under ground...but I hear the cell phone reception is horrible.

*claps* Great post man.

And I'm really not being sarcastic.

 

[Fantt]

No family (*edit: or individual) in America is denied healthcare. I don't see how this perception came to be. Medical insurance or not, you can go to a hospital and get taken care of.

Why is a guy here at work having to beg for money to get a bone marrow transplant for his son? Why do we ever see people asking for money for operations and whatnot? Are they just crackheads looking for a score?

 

[MeAndroo]

On a more serious note, I am totally against Bush's anti-gay marriage policy because it is against the fundamental ideas of America. All people are equal and to take away the right of marriage of some people just because of their sexual orientation is wrong.

Thomas Jefferson says it pretty nicely:

"We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

I'm pro marriage for gays too, but I bet after writing that, Jefferson went home and knocked up one of the slaves that worked on his plantation.

I drive an SUV because I enjoy driving SUVs. My family has a lot of stuff to haul around and they do a good job. Mine isn't a V8 and it gets decent gas mileage for an SUV. If I had had the option of purchasing a hybrid SUV I would have probably gone for it. I don't feel guilty

I get crap for driving an SUV too, until I let people know that it's a 4-cylinder that gets 20 miles to the gallon. It's funny when hippies driving a 1985 Celebrity criticize your choice in automobile because of it's fuel efficiency. It's not like I bought the damn thing, and it's a step up from the 93 MPV guzzler I was driving. And Ford is coming out with an SUV hybrid Escape.

Jesus is willing and just for forgive ALL sin. Rather than making the life of the homosexual harder and legalizing discrimination, maybe we should think of ways of reaching him or her with the gospel. Laws are weak substitutes for a changed life.

Word. The inherent problem with gays and how they relate to Christianity, or more specifically Catholicism, is that a bunch of old white people are telling the whole world how to act. The Vatican hands down a stance, and every diocese in the country attempts to back it up. Jesus, if anything, wanted people to be happy, at least according to the 20+ years of experience I had as a Catholic. I know a Christian gay kid...he loves God and lives his life. Try telling him Jesus hates him.

What the losing side in this election fails to realize (among other things) is the large degree of backlash all this Bush hating and elitist, condescending, dismissive attitude toward those of us with differing political views generated.

Indeed. Talking to people like they're idiots, which is what I perceived the Dems to be doing, isn't the best way to get them to follow you. Bush was straight up with his plans, and since he at least seemed to be guided by a consistent moral compass, he looked better.

I'd had so many debates with people at college parties, mostly playing devil's advocate or proclaiming that both Bush and Kerry sucked (which they do), and the response from liberals was much more immature than from conservatives. I said I wouldn't vote for Kerry, and a young lady threw part of my Halloween costume off of a balcony (I later told her I wasn't voting Bush either and she apologized). I said I wouldn't vote for Bush, and was engaged by a young man who wanted to know on which issue I disagreed with the incumbent. This is only a sample of the population, but if college-educated people are acting in this manner, what does that say for the rest of the country?

 

[Antifederalist]

Why is a guy here at work having to beg for money to get a bone marrow transplant for his son? Why do we ever see people asking for money for operations and whatnot? Are they just crackheads looking for a score?

Has his son had a bone marrow transplant before?

[joking]Yes, they are crackheads[/joking]

 

[Fantt]

Yeah, he's had at least one.

 

[Mike Cash]

Conservatives and liberals can't go 5 minutes without calling each other a name or bashing them personally.

If I weren't in a hurry to go to work, I'd go through this thread (and similar ones) and count the number of times derogatory terms have been applied to people who voted as I did, and then count the number of times derogatory terms have been applied to those of a more liberal political bent.

 

[Antifederalist]

Yeah, he's had at least one.

Hmmm....I know most insurance would let you do it it once, but they probably wouldn't let someone get it a second time unless the patient showed major improvement from it. So insurance or not, I think your friend would be in a similar situation (not that that's any consolation).

Just wondering, have you done anything to help him? Have you guys started a collection at work and/or on the Internet to see if people will contribute to his cause. Since I don't know you, I would need some proof of his son's condition, but I would be glad to help some.

See, Conservatives aren't Eeevil like the stories go.