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J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Wanderer said:
Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
1600 BC its in the balkans

Sardinia J-L283
1200BC
Same time of trojan war

The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


The trojans were related to thracians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses








Troy was founded about 3000bc
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level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC
 
torzio said:
level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC
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Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

Trojan war was about that time
The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC
 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)
The Dardanoi (Greek: Δάρδανοι; its
anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans) in classical writings were either the same people as, or a people closely related to, the Trojans, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani
The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani) were a Paleo-Balkan tribe, which lived in a region which was named Dardania after their settlement there.[1][2] The eastern parts of the region were at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. In archaeological research, Illyrian names are predominant in western Dardania (present-day Kosovo), while Thracian names are mostly found in eastern Dardania (present-day south-eastern Serbia). Thracian names are absent in western Dardania; some Illyrian names appear in the eastern parts. Thus, their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe has been a subject of debate; the ethnolinguistic relationship between the two groups being largely uncertain and debated itself as well.[3][4] The correspondence of Illyrian names - including those of the ruling elite - in Dardania with those of the southern Illyrians suggests a "thracianization" of parts of Dardania.[5][6] Strabo in his geographica mentions them as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[7][8]
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If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.
 
Wanderer said:
Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

Trojan war was about that time
The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC
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There are 9 levels of troy from as you state, 3000BC ish to the Roman occupation which is level 9b .....................it has already been proved that level 6 circa 1185bc is the only one that showed that a war took place...............
Level 5 showed major earthquake damage to the city...................the assumption was , after the earthquake the walls of level 6 where not fully fixed when raiders/sea peoples/ greeks whoever attacked an already damaged city

yes there where dardanians living in the Troad area of Anatolia, south side of the ancient Thracian city of Sestos ................are these dardanians the same as kosovo dardanian ....I have no idea
 
Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.
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very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people
 
Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.
 
Polska said:
Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.
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Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups
 
Found some page showing large extensive data of ancient DNA samples.
Pretty cool. Has a map and spreadsheets with lots of information.

www.indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/

For the map here is a link but you can find it through navigation.
The spreadsheet is interesting. Theres more ancient samples of J-L283 then I didn't know about that arent on Yfull. Or at least I didn't notice were ancient.
 
torzio said:
Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups
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Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.
 
Last edited:
I noticed that there was a viking
Kit from öland sweden which is an island next not too far from denmark and slavic / northern balkan countries.

Viking Y36972 :
z631 -> z1043 -> z84242-> Y36972
about 1000 AD

Then there is also a german:
z631 -> z1043
About 1300 ad

Roma sample -> z631 is about 200BC - 0

Talking about the age of the remains. Not tmrca estimation

Im wondering if early z631 actually migrated toward the baltics/lower scandanavia from the around the central medditernean and adriatic. Which is probably why you end up with J-L283 in various places like germanic and slavic countries like germany, croatia, british ( danish invaders), russia. May explain russian and spanish kit J-L283 common lineage and why theres a good handful of spanish J-L283 meanwhile not the case for french which borders spain and germany and italy.

But strangley enough J-L283 is extra rare. In ireland or france. Theres a good handful of british J-L283, but not so in Ireland. And france is huge. Which makes me wonder if french paternal lineages are mostly celtic and scando paternal lineages are very rare in france. It seems obvious maybe but i heard that normans invaded france before so I thought there would be more j-L283. The only french J-L283 are also northern french and its very few. One borders belgium. I need to read more admittingly i don't know so much about france history dealing with vikings tho.

Edit there is one southern french but its close to spain. Theres none in central france or central western france

There is a arguement for bottleneck effect in sardinia because its an isolated island. Weirdly theres a good handful of british J-L283 and only about 1 or 2 irish J-L283. Which is right next to britain. Both are large islands. Very close to each other.
J-L283 in greeks is also very rare
And to me greeks with J-L283 actually come from albanians or other balkanic peoples.
 
Wanderer said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.
Click to expand...

I have had this thought before which may explain the greater amount of j2b l283 in north albanians (dardani were usually north east of illyrians geographically although they were classified as an illyrian tribe anyway and had mostly illyrian & some thracian names). There was also an influx of kosovar albanians into north albania post communism
 
Polska said:
Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.
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Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
Thracians have steppe and anatolian
Dardanians have anatolian
Greeks have anatolian

Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?
 
torzio said:
very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people
Click to expand...


latest I found on Troy

[h=1]The Lost City of Troy | Full Documentary | TRACKS[/h]173,351 views
•Feb 29, 2020

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSjZ5_Pi04
 
torzio said:
Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
Thracians have steppe and anatolian
Dardanians have anatolian
Greeks have anatolian

Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?
Click to expand...

The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
 
If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.

There they swiftly became dominant over the local Neolithic farmers of 'Old Europe', and then over Minoan Crete, while also occupying many of the Greek isles and possibly even the Anatolian coast in the form of the Ahhiyawa. It is fairly common for a newly-arrived warrior culture to impose a fresh layer of ruling nobility on any existing society, and Indo-Europeans seemed especially good at this when the preceding culture was Neolithic. Their last hurrah seemingly came with the conquest of Troy, calculated here to have taken place around 1183 BC. By then climate-induced drought had not only resulted in tremendous political instability in the entire eastern Mediterranean region (making the attack on Troy possible in the first place), it had also brought about the fall of the Hittite empire (Troy's major ally), and triggered migrations by the West-Indo-European settlers along the Danube and the South-West Indo-European settlers of Romania and - by now - the northern Balkans. They began pushing southwards in a tremendous wave of advance, perhaps as early as about 1250 BC. The possibility exists that the rise of the Urnfield culture from around 1300 BC (locally represented by the Gava culture - see map below) could also have been instrumental in initiating this migration.
These people were in the process of forming into historically-recognisable tribes by this time, or at least did so as a result of their migrations. The proto-Illyrians (not a single homogenous group in itself, but seemingly all sorts of odds-and-ends from the Danubian communities) and proto-Epirotes soon occupied the entire western Balkan coast north of Greece itself. The former perhaps did not find enough land or resources, as they soon spilled over the Adriatic and into south-western Italy in the form of the Iapyges (seemingly between the eleventh and tenth centuries BC). The proto-Thracians took the south-eastern corner of the Balkans, everything between the Balkans Mountains (which run through the centre of modern Bulgaria) and the area around Thessalonica. The proto-Dacians - closely related to the Thracians at least - took (or remained in) territory to the north of the Thracians, in Romania and Moldova. The proto-Phrygians took a similar route but carried on going until they had crossed into Anatolia - in fact they may have begun this movement as early as 1450 BC. The story for proto-Armenians is far less certain, but they were also part of this general grouping at some point. The proto-Macedonians took the bulk of the mountainous territory between the Thracians and the Epirotes, while the proto-Dorians, Aeolians, and Ionians continued on into Mycenaean Greece and the islands of the Aegean, seemingly in superior numbers and with aggression enough to see off even the Mycenaeans.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBalkans.htm
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Polska said:
The ancient L283s all downstream from Z615 (Z38240 Dalmatian/Illyrian , CTS6190 Etruscan, Z631 Roman, and the Z615 Mokrin/Maros) had healthy amounts of steppe ancestry (around 30% autosomal steppe) with no autosomal ancestry from near east/Anatolia.

The Z600 and basal L283 from Sardinia had no Anatolian/near eastern autosomal ancestry, but also had very little to no steppe ancestry. Bit of a head scratcher, but probably the result of being part of an isolated population in Sardinia for many centuries. These Sardinian L283s were from the Naragic Civilization, which descends from Bonnanaro and Polada Cultures from northern Italy = Bell Beakers.

Ancient L283/Z600 in Sardinia and Z615/Z597 in Balkans point to north —-> south migration from a possible homeland in/near Central European Alps. I’m under the impression that L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup and crossed the southern steppe en route to Central Europe based on ancient basal L283 from Karbino Balkaria in southern Russia and current living kits from Armenia. We need more ancient samples from area between Balkans and Karbino Balkaria to confirm this path, though.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
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I have been saying this about the Balkars ( Karbino Balkaria) who are from the north-caucasus , for a very long time
 
Progon said:
If we go by archeological data, J2b2-L283 being the Proto-Illyrian Y-DNA doesn't quite fit. They were already present in Balkans before the Illyrian tribes moved down south from Danube Valley during MBA LBA period.
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It could be that Urnfield became known as "illyrians" later on by the Greeks OR illyrians were in balkans before reported years but didn't have a big united tribe until later on as is the case with most cultures/tribes. Don't forget that there isn't much written history from illyrians themself so this name may have been given to them by the Greeks. All we know is that illyrians existed for a long time and they liked snakes/serpents

If you look at Greek history you can see that over time illyrians pushed further and further south possibly because they liked the warmer weather and then the slavs came pushing thracians east and illyrians more south
 
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