Religion Islam: Conceptions and misconceptions

[Mars Man]

This is not the first time I've seen something like this, yet will have to pull it out later, since it's really past my bedtime.

Yeah, I had also once thought of pulling this thread out again, some time after it had faded into the archives, when I had decided to start looking into Islam deeper. I decided against it since there had been some, well, side-stuff, if you will about numbers and some most obviously tall tales overshadowing the content about the religion. I am glad, however, that you did pull it out again, Mycernius, and I hope to post some here to bring it back around to more discussion about the religion and its practices and teachings, and why, and stuff.

I will post on the conversion to a different religion though. Thanks Mycernius san !!

 

[bossel]

To me they are helping label Islam as an intolerant religion.

No need to label it as such, it is. Esp. converts away from Islam have a hard time.

It seems that despite removing the Taliban extremism still exists in Afghanistans judicary and government.

I suppose, we should wait for the verdict before we can say so. I've seen most ridiculous cases in Western courts as well, usually ending with acquittal. This will probably also happen in this case, perhaps by declaring the accused mentally ill. If not, the man will most probably be pardoned by Karzai.

Funny, though, the Western powers which freed Afghanistan from the Taliban agreed with the constitution that makes such a case possible.
Also funny that the same Western powers which introduced separation of powers to Afghanistan now pressure the Afghan government to interfere with the (more or less) indedependent justice.

 

[No-name]

So are there any Muslims that can enlighten us? What we throw around here is based upon our western perceptions based on our western philosophy and our information from our press. I think there is a huge disconnect here.

 

[Mars Man]

I have invited eeman? (I think that is the posters forum name, and if I am wrong, please do forgive me) to drop by and share some with us since that poster, from Japanese and British blood, living in the UK, has taken up the path of Islam some five years ago--according to that poster.

And I promise that I will get back here with some things too, as time and priority allow.

 

[eemaan]

Hello all, well here I am, thanks for the invite Mars man! I've had a brief skim read of the previous threads and have an idea of the discussion, it looks like my sister belle hasn't been here for a while, so perhaps it's for me to pick up the baton.
I doubt I can say much different from what she would say, but if there are any new questions I pray I can be of use, bear in mind though I'm no scholar and won't know the answer to everything you might ask, and likewise I won't know everything about yours or other religions.
I look forward to hearing from you and to be of any help insha'Allah (God willing)
P.s, just a short glossary of terms I will automatically write because they are now an inherant part of my speech and it's quite long winded to have to write out brackets each time!
Insha'Allah-God Willing
Alhamdulillah-Praise be to God
Masha'Allah-God has made it so
SubhanAllah-Glory to God-it's like an exclamation or 'oh my God!'
Peace!

 

[Mycernius]

nice to see you posting in this forum. No worries if you are not a scholar, a laymans view is sometimes better than a scholar. Plus a good discussion on the subject might help you read more about your own beliefs and others. I am currently trying to read the Koran, Qu'ran (or whatever spelling that you might prefer) it is just as trying as the Bible waskashii: Plus the lost books of the Bible, The Gnostics texts and a few other religious texts, along with any other book which takes my fancy at the time (At least with the Qu'ran the Suras get shorter as you get further along in it. Wish you could say the same about the Bible)

 

[eemaan]

If you do read the Qur'an it's best to read a copy that a Muslim has translated, from a Muslim publishing house. Just before I became Muslim my friend bought a copy by Puffin from Hammicks, and it really wasn't the same as the copy I recieved from the Muslim bookshop. Often you get misinterpretations by orientalists, and incorrect reasons for certain things in the Qur'an. Just a suggestion if you really want to know the Qur'an.

 

[bossel]

Often you get misinterpretations by orientalists, and incorrect reasons for certain things in the Qur'an. Just a suggestion if you really want to know the Qur'an.

If you really want to know Koran, I suppose, you'd have to ask said orientalists. Just reading modern translations or transcriptions won't do the deal. As has been shown by some scientists, the original meaning of several terms in the Koran has been lost over time.

 

[No-name]

Isn't in the original Arabic? I thought nothing had been changed or translated...

 

[Mars Man]

Good morning eemaan san ! I'm glad that you have found your way to this area as well. I hope to have a deep and meaningful discussion.

Regarding translating, I well understand that problem. I recall reading an article (in TIME I believe) about more than one possible texts in a number of places of the Quran, and some Muslem scholars saying that at least a number of texts used by Bin Laden were not the original reading.

Are you very knowledgeable about Shariah? I am interested in learning more about the laws and the reasons for the burqa and the need for women to hide so much of their bodies?

Thanks !!

 

[Mycernius]

Isn't in the original Arabic? I thought nothing had been changed or translated...

7th century Arabic, not 21st century arabic. Therein lies the problem with translating any ancient documents. Meanings differ over the centuries. Look at the difference between Elizabethn English and modern English. Or for a better example, Chaucers English. There is also the problem of how moral codes change over hundredds of years. High born daughters were expected to be married and sometimes have more than one child by the time they were 15 during the 16th century. Their husbands were usually much older than them as well.
On the reeading of the Quran. One of the guys in our transport office is a Muslim, not a very strict one as he likes the odd drink and smokes, but he was sent to the mosque as a child to learn the Quran. When I said "oh, you can speak and read arabic then" he replied that they were only taught how to read the Quran, not the meanings behind the words. In other words, just recite it parrot fashion. He can't read or write arabic only verse from the Quran.

 

[Revenant]

Having only glanced through the Koran (Quran) at the local library, I really can't say I know much about it. I often see violent passages posted from the Koran on other forums. It often talks about 'ridding the infidels', is that taken most often as symbolic, as in purge oneself of the evil in one's heart (might be a stupid question)?

 

[eemaan]

Bismillahi was salaatu was salamu 'alaa rasoolillah. (In the name of God and peace and blessings upon the Prophet)
Well, where do I start,
"If you really want to know Koran, I suppose, you'd have to ask said orientalists. Just reading modern translations or transcriptions won't do the deal. As has been shown by some scientists, the original meaning of several terms in the Koran has been lost over time."
Bossel, I've never heard this you'll have to show me where you read this.
I feel from your tone you're not a fan of Islam, perhaps you can share with us why.
Perhaps I should rephrase, if you want to know the Qur'an learn Arabic. Not practical though is it. As for the original meaning lost, it's the same back then as it is now, so nothing has been lost.
The Qur'an has always been preserved in Arabic memorised by millions of Muslims globally, since its revelation 1400 years ago. If one person makes a mistake there are plenty available to correct them. God has promised that the Qur'an will be protected. So yes Sabro, you are correct that the Qur'an has never been changed.
Mars Man, hope you're well, I haven't heard anything about BinLaden so sorry I can't help you there. As for Shari'ah, I don't know much, but I'm very willing to find out more for you. Regarding the hijaab, or veil-this is something I had a big problem with before I accepted Islam, not HUGE just big. I used to think it was my 'right' as a human to be able to walk down the road wearing nothing but a mini skirt and short top without having to be harassed by the opposite sex. "I feel hot, I can wear what I like and I shouldn't have to worry about being stared at by dirty men" was my thought. Why should I have to cover my head? etc etc, These are the thoughts I used to have. But when I started to look into Islam, I was seeking truth, a meaning to my being, so I read with an open heart and mind, a pre-requisite for all truth seekers. Firstly you must know that hijaab is not enforced by men because they are jealous, it is a law that God has prescribed for women for their benefit and protection. Here is more on the topic from www.islamic.org.uk.
"The main principle reason for the hijab is modesty, which is not wishing to receive unnecessary attention from people, such as admiration and flattery, envy, or, most importantly, sexual attraction from those other than her husband.Great care is taken to keep sexual thoughts, feelings and interactions to within the boundaries of the marital relationship.

These types of attention may boost the 'ego' for the short term, but all have the potential to lead to disastrous consequences in the long term, for example leading to confused feelings, competition, suspicions, affairs, break-up of marriages and other relationships, disturbed children, and ultimately a community where people are insecure,unhappy, and divided amongst themselves.

From this it can be seen that the hijab is a manifestation of another important principle in Islam, which is valuing benefits which are permanent above those which are temporary. What is permanently beneficial is, for example, a happy marriage between two people who aim to learn, teach and apply Islam to the best of their ability in their lives. This is seen as that which brings about the true happiness of the soul for eternity, by purifying and keeping it in its pure, natural, God-created state, filling it with peace and contentment, patience, gratefulness, love and compassion. What is temporary are the momentary pleasures derived from, for example, people's opinions of you, leading to your own self-satisfaction, or, even more basically, those derived from physical sensations."


I found this site extremely useful when I was looking into Islam and I found I agreed with all that was written. There is more on the topic at the site should you wish to read more.

Mycernius, I don't know about meaning being lost, I have studied Arabic, though perhaps on a basic level, and I have had no problem understanding the Qur'anic texts I have studied with a teacher. No doubt complete knowledge of Classical Arabic is the key to truly understanding the Qur'an, but even on a very basic level the Qur'an is accessible to all. About your point on marriage of young daughters to older men, I think this is quite an important point as I know someone else mentioned about the Prophet (may Gods peace and blessings be upon him) marrying one of his wives at 6 years old and cosumating it when she was 9. As far as I know this is historically correct, and some people would argue that this young marriage was something wrong. Perhaps in todays society it would be seen as something quite disturbing, but as Mycernius quite rightly pointed out, this was how things were done back then, children were mature far beyond their years, just as in todays society most teens act with the minds of people much younger. Besides, do you think that her parents were against it, or even Aisha herself? No of course not, what a blessing to marry such a noble man, and of course she would have given consent to the consumation. To further my point I'll add that my husbands grandmother had her first child at 13, so even today, it is still something normal for many people.
Regarding your friend, I understand your confusion totally! I couldn't believe it myself when I became Muslim that children are mostly taught parrot fashion, only how to read but not understand the most impotant book in a Muslims life! Ridiculous! I must say I'm quite opposed to what I call 'cultural Islam' where people confuse their cultural practices with Islamic practices. And do things out of habit rather than for benefit. I see it every day and I must admit it saddens me greatly. I mean it is a bit fruitless to some extent isn't it unless the person decides to go for themselves and study later on in life. It is from Islam to learn and to read, we can't make excuses all the time that we were ignorant, it is sometimes for us to go and learn and to seek knowledge. Islam does not promote ignorance.
Revanant, you'll have to quote those verses for me so I can give you an appropriate answer insha'Allah.
I hope I've been of help insha'Allah, and look forward to reading your responses.
Take care, Peace.

 

[kumo]

About your point on marriage of young daughters to older men, I think this is quite an important point as I know someone else mentioned about the Prophet (may Gods peace and blessings be upon him) marrying one of his wives at 6 years old and cosumating it when she was 9. As far as I know this is historically correct, and some people would argue that this young marriage was something wrong. Perhaps in todays society it would be seen as something quite disturbing, but as Mycernius quite rightly pointed out, this was how things were done back then, children were mature far beyond their years, just as in todays society most teens act with the minds of people much younger. Besides, do you think that her parents were against it, or even Aisha herself? No of course not, what a blessing to marry such a noble man, and of course she would have given consent to the consumation.

So... would you let Muhammad rape your daughter? Do you know of course that the problems with raping a 9 year old are not only psychological, but also physical? Do you suggest people have mutated so much since then that little girls can no longer stand being raped? Or maybe you believe Muhammad's deeds are atemporal and should be ok even to this day?

*one of the "tactless" posters Sabro talked about*

 

[bossel]

Bossel, I've never heard this you'll have to show me where you read this.

Well, English sources for this seem to be still rare, but I found this book review (mind you, the book is from 1998 or 2000, by now even more has come to light, I refer esp. to the German scholar Pruin), quote:

"In that same section, one also finds a study of how Syriac roots were misread and altered by later commentators. In one case, the word jaw (sura 16:79) misread ?gair, atmosphere?h is from Syriac gaw, which means both ?ginsides, inner part?h and can also be used as a preposition meaning ?ginside.?h In sura 16:79 Luxenberg demonstrates that the prepositional use makes more sense than the solution posed by the commentators. Classical Arabic grammar, which was created three hundred years after the Qur?fān, does not recall the prepositional meaning of the word. However, dialects of Arabic preserve the original Syriac prepositional use. So where sura 16:79 reads fī jaw as-samā?f ?gin(side) heaven?h referring to birds held aloft and kept from falling down by God, the dialects agree: fī jawwāt al-bet ?ginside the house?h is perfectly good Arabic. The misreading of Qur?fānic Arabic jaw as ?gair?h has become part of the technical vocabulary of modern standard Arabic: ?gair mail,?h ?gair force,?h ?gairline,?h and ?gweather report?h all use jaw. The imaginary meaning of the grammarians lives on."

I feel from your tone you're not a fan of Islam, perhaps you can share with us why.

Most here know why: I'm an atheist.

Perhaps I should rephrase, if you want to know the Qur'an learn Arabic.

Ah, but which Arabic? There are so many different dialects now & in the past.

As for the original meaning lost, it's the same back then as it is now, so nothing has been lost.
The Qur'an has always been preserved in Arabic memorised by millions of Muslims globally, since its revelation 1400 years ago. If one person makes a mistake there are plenty available to correct them.

Just like the Bible, then?

God has promised that the Qur'an will be protected. So yes Sabro, you are correct that the Qur'an has never been changed.

Even if that were correct, the spoken language developed, old words were lost, others changed their meaning. If the Koran really didn't change, you still would have problems understanding the original meaning.

But when I started to look into Islam, I was seeking truth, a meaning to my being, so I read with an open heart and mind, a pre-requisite for all truth seekers. Firstly you must know that hijaab is not enforced by men because they are jealous, it is a law that God has prescribed for women for their benefit and protection.

Maybe your god did use a language that people 100 years later didn't understand anymore? There is actually evidence that this is a case of Aramaic influence in the original Koran: ?hwa-l-yadrib-na bi-khumuri-hinna ?ealâ djuyûbi-hinna ?h was not meant as "and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms, etc.)"[translation taken from Muttaqun online], but something like "they should put their girdles around their loins." The Koranic sentence was probably based on a loan translation from Aramaic (Syriac).

Mycernius, I don't know about meaning being lost, I have studied Arabic, though perhaps on a basic level, and I have had no problem understanding the Qur'anic texts I have studied with a teacher.

No problem? Perhaps because your teacher had his interpretations handy (or memorised)?

this was how things were done back then

Hmm, wait... Are you saying that the Koran allowed this back then, but doesn't allow it in the modern world? Or would it be still OK (if it ever was)?

So... would you let Muhammad rape your daughter? Do you know of course that the problems with raping a 9 year old are not only psychological, but also physical?

Well, even if this incident actually happened (which it probably did not), you have to consider the different circumstances. If the girl was prepared for the marriage & its consummation, the psychological effects probably would have been minimal. Physically, it all depends (on the girl, on Mohammad's physical - er - equipment & strength, ...).

 

[kumo]

Well , even if this incident actually happened (which it probably did not), you have to consider the different circumstances.

AFAIK, this claim isn't even disputed by the Muslim community, or anyone else that I've heard of. Some sources would be nice.

If the girl was prepared for the marriage & its consummation, the psychological effects probably would have been minimal. Physically, it all depends (on the girl, on Mohammad's physical - er - equipment & strength, ...).

Silly me, I almost forgot about all those children who like to be raped by 53 years old lunatics. Obviously all today's pedophiles are victims of our unfair and arbitrary moralism.

Or maybe, just maybe, even though it was "the norm", kids didn't like to be raped in those times either. But hey, it's all relative.

 

[Mars Man]

Good morning eemaan san !!

Thanks for the reply on that topic of the burqa and the covering--and the site on that. I will use those, and yet will also seek out more detailed explanations. If you ever run across any scholarly type information on that, please do share it with us.

From your answer I realize you are female, and not having been raised in a Muslem home, was reminded of one Rabi'a Frank (previously Rebecca) living in the Neatherlands who, as reported on in the March 19th issue of The Times (UK) via the Daily Yomiuri started wearing a niqab as well as the burqa.

Some of the points you brought up there would be interesting to look at from a number of angles--introspectively and extrospectively (so to speak). I happen to be an agnostic and so reason that no human knows, so my discussion may well come from that perspective, yet, I am learning here too. So, with a proper degree of respect for your beliefs and thoughts do hope that you are willing to engage in discussion, looking at things from a number of angles without having to feel necessarily pressured to change or adopt.

Thank you and see you 'round !!:wave:

 

[Mars Man]

quote:
"In that same section, one also finds a study of how Syriac roots were misread and altered by later commentators. In one case, the word jaw (sura 16:79) misread ?gair, atmosphere?h is from Syriac gaw, which means both ?ginsides, inner part?h and can also be used as a preposition meaning ?ginside.?h In sura 16:79 Luxenberg demonstrates that the prepositional use makes more sense than the solution posed by the commentators. Classical Arabic grammar, which was created three hundred years after the Qur?fān, does not recall the prepositional meaning of the word. However, dialects of Arabic preserve the original Syriac prepositional use. So where sura 16:79 reads fī jaw as-samā?f ?gin(side) heaven?h referring to birds held aloft and kept from falling down by God, the dialects agree: fī jawwāt al-bet ?ginside the house?h is perfectly good Arabic. The misreading of Qur?fānic Arabic jaw as ?gair?h has become part of the technical vocabulary of modern standard Arabic: ?gair mail,?h ?gair force,?h ?gairline,?h and ?gweather report?h all use jaw. The imaginary meaning of the grammarians lives on."

Good find there bossel san !! I often run into such things with the Hebrew in the Maseoric (sp? too lazy to run get the dict.) text. In the Greek, used for the Christian texts, one doesn't encounter so much of that, but it is, nevertheless, there.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

"The main principle reason for the hijab is modesty, which is not wishing to receive unnecessary attention from people, such as admiration and flattery, envy, or, most importantly, sexual attraction from those other than her husband.Great care is taken to keep sexual thoughts, feelings and interactions to within the boundaries of the marital relationship."

This describes a woman's responsibility to keep her sexuality within the confines of marriage. What corresponding responsibility does a man have?

 

[eemaan]

Bismillah.
Well, well, well...
Dear Kumo, I won't pretend that I'm not extremely offended by your rude and tactless remarks, and am somewhat reluctant to respond to them, not because I can't, but because I don't want to rise to the bait because you are quite clearly looking for confrontation. However I simply have to say to you that Aisha was not raped, Muhammad (saw) was not a paedophile, he loved her very much, and since you know so much about Islam(!), you would know that she was one of Islams greatest scholars, I find it highly unlikely that if she was psychologically damaged she would not have been able to quote the great many number of ahadith (sayings of the prophet) as she did, recorded in the books of hadith, which are the second most important scriptures in Islam.
Bossel, I have to honest with you, my kids are doing my head it right now(!) so I can't concentrate on reading the link you gave, so forgive me if my response is inadequate...I can't say I'm all that clued up on your claims whether they be true or not, all I can say is that the Qur'an is timeless, like I said protected by God, because that is His promise and His promise is true, and that's why we have scholarship in Islam, so that there are people who can explain any such confusions, just as the sick person would go to the doctor not the greengrocer for medical advice! *smile* Yes my teacher did have interpretations but how does that make it any less valid? I'm not sure I get your point there. I'm not a linguistics student but my friend is, I'll get her to perhaps shed some light on the history of language and any aramaic influences etc and perhaps we can pick up on the topic again later. But I mean come on, how can anything have been lost, Islam is still the same today as it was back then, Muslim women have always worn hijab and always will, the nature hasn't changed over time. Like I said Islam is timeless, it is for 1400 years ago, today and 1400 years in the future.
Tsuyoiko, yes a man has the same obligations of course, it wouldn't be just any other way. A man can only have sexual relations with his wife. A man must also dress modestly and make sure he does not expose himself. Let's face it, it makes sense that women should perhaps be protected more than men, after all when's the last time anyone heard of a woman raping a man? Seriously, no one can possibly argue any other way? (though no doubt someone will try to find something) You get me right?

Right, my kids have thoroughly fried my brain now, so time to sign off, sorry if I've sounded a bit short or a abrupt, or upset anyone, totally not my intention, take care,
Peace.