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If hg. IJ folks were Cro-magnon who were R* folks?

Phenotypes have nothing to do with HG. R1a1a people were most likely dolicephalic, so that rules out them being cro-magnon who are brahcephalics.

I disagree my friend, original R1a1* people were most likely mesocephalic with broader faces, as we know R1a and R2a* s closest relative is the Amerindian/Siberian dominant Haplogroup Q* which seems to be Caucasian/East Asian connected. The more longheaded dolichocephalic element was probably brought in by Neolithic people.
 
if we consider that 'corded ware' people was as a majority Y-R1a, whatever the link old or new between this Y-HG and their dominant autosomals, we CAN say Y-R1a was dolichocephalic at pre-metal ages!!! (the same for N-Indians ones, even if they show today dark pigmentation): I write all that not to affirm some perpetual link between R1a and dolichocephally, but to precise some things to tell: let's be cautious! I precise too I see no link between C-M and first Corded people, the C-Ms of E-Europe was at first more northern, I think - I should better see new mesolithic peoeple of C-E Europe as one of the elements in 'Cordeds' -
 
I disagree my friend, original R1a1* people were most likely mesocephalic with broader faces, as we know R1a and R2a* s closest relative is the Amerindian/Siberian dominant Haplogroup Q* which seems to be Caucasian/East Asian connected. The more longheaded dolichocephalic element was probably brought in by Neolithic people.

I agree. Their faces probably reflected an adaptation to their cold environment (wide faces and such)
 
I agree. Their faces probably reflected an adaptation to their cold environment (wide faces and such)

HUm.... Have you studied the faces proportions in West-central African negroid populations?
these adaptative rules are based more on ancient new born science than on serious surveys: environment plays a role, sure, but we are not arrived yet to find its multiple effects, because genomes have complicated ways to resolve life problems, not always the same! AND 'cro-magnon' guys according to serious scientists (it exists!) was not the better adapted to cold climate, compared, say, with 'neanderthal', by instance...

no ONE BIALLELIC pair <> ONE PROBLEM resolved
 
cro-magnon' guys according to serious scientists (it exists!) was not the better adapted to cold climate, compared, say, with 'neanderthal', by instance...

I never said they were. They relatively recently migrated into Europe (30,000 years ago?) They mostly exhibit features adapted to a dry climate, which makes sense considering that they came from the Middle-East (long noses and long faces).

I said that R1b/R1a Indo-europeans were adapted to cold climate. All the countries with the highest concentrations of the Indo-European haplogroups have features which are adapted to a very cold climate: snub noses, wide cheeks, round heads, stocky bodies, etc. Both Celts (who have the highest concentrations of R1b), and Slavs (who have the highest concentrations of R1a) are widely stereotyped as having such features. The only Europeans who aren't known for such features are the ones who have high Cro-Magnon and Near/Middle-Eastern admixtures, which attested by certain haplogroups.

Have you studied the faces proportions in West-central African negroid populations?

They have snub noses because they are adapted to a HUMID environment, which humidity-wise is the complete opposite of a DRY environment.

Humid environment = small noses

Cold environment = small noses

Dry environment = long noses
 
I never said they were. They relatively recently migrated into Europe (30,000 years ago?) They mostly exhibit features adapted to a dry climate, which makes sense considering that they came from the Middle-East (long noses and long faces).

I said that R1b/R1a Indo-europeans were adapted to cold climate. All the countries with the highest concentrations of the Indo-European haplogroups have features which are adapted to a very cold climate: snub noses, wide cheeks, round heads, stocky bodies, etc. Both Celts (who have the highest concentrations of R1b), and Slavs (who have the highest concentrations of R1a) are widely stereotyped as having such features. The only Europeans who aren't known for such features are the ones who have high Cro-Magnon and Near/Middle-Eastern admixtures, which attested by certain haplogroups.



They have snub noses because they are adapted to a HUMID environment, which humidity-wise is the complete opposite of a DRY environment.

Humid environment = small noses

Cold environment = small noses

Dry environment = long noses

I'm afraid you don't read entirely the other posts (the mines, by example):
specific 'cromagnons' had NOT long faces, they had broad square faces, and their faces didn't check their other body proportions!!! READ! you confused paleolithic 'cromagnon' with mesolithic 'brünn' and 'combe-capelle' types (as others do, it's true)
look at South America Amerindians, spite of their globally mongoloid tendancies, they have noses that do'nt fit other asiatic origin people nor COLD CLIMATES - North-east Amerindians was yet more typical of that/ EVEN IF WE CONSIDER THEY WAS NEW IN THESE LANDS, THEY WAS SUPPOSED TO BE COME FROM CENTRAL-NORTH SIBERIA!
the old rules of adaptation (the more visible) are overcome by human tribes movements and capacity to respond to rude environment by human inventions!!! (since maybe more than 40000 years) -
I repeat: it exists some ROUGH TENDANCIES corresponding VERY ROUGHLY to climate

and Celts and Slavs are not only the descendants of a PURE Y-R1b or Y-R1a origin affiliated population! read again my posts : Corded Ware people was surely overwhelmingly Y-R1a and they have for the most of them robust BUT LONGILIGNE FEATURES as a lot of 'nordic' looking people have today!

No offense but you lack of knowledge about ancient and current populations! Let's note it's not so important, things are changing nowadays concerning populations movements and climate and natural selection have little to do with it !
by the way, some subtile (no visible) adaptations select still human beings in some remote countries, but they don't change too much the external features (ex: capacity to fix oxygene in blood: interesting fact: in different populations, it's not the same "trick" that finds Nature to adapt "its" Humans to same problems: complicated genome!)
 
specific 'cromagnons' had NOT long faces, they had broad square faces,

Their faces WERE long, they were square because their face were at the same broad as well.

No offense but you lack of knowledge about ancient and current populations!

No offense but I think you are biased towards Nordicism and using out-dated terminology such as "brünn".
 
look at South America Amerindians, spite of their globally mongoloid tendancies, they have noses that do'nt fit other asiatic origin people nor COLD CLIMATES

There is alot of evidence that the original South American people were Australoids. There is also evidence that they mixed with the Asiatic migrants. This would explain deviation from the Mongoloid norm.
 
There is alot of evidence that the original South American people were Australoids. There is also evidence that they mixed with the Asiatic migrants. This would explain deviation from the Mongoloid norm.

?!?
as you say, some "paleo" amerindians tribes of SouthAmerica (very small tribes without too much posterity) has (had?) shown some "low-evolved" physical features, the crania, face and skull, recalling some 'veddoid'-'australoid' primitive shapes (plus wavy hairs), some with a so called "judaic" or "armenoid" nose shape (I didn't found other terminology even if this one doesn't fit too well): yes, here we could see some crossing, because the 'veddas' and australian aborigenes don't show this kind of "falling tip" nose - but here, if crossing, we can imagine that the long nose shape is an inheritage from the other and more common south-amerindian tribes - but the weight of thses elements in the amerindian making is too light to explain current features among the Southern Amerindians
- I think you would have better leave all these simplistic mechanical adaptative theories for modern man: If you read what I post... OR give them the place they have since some thousands of years ago: a little one -

answering your other post:
where do you see a link between the use of the 'brünn type' term and Nordicism??? it is as for "antisemitism", nowadays, some communities or some lobbies would have right to attract and monopolize scientific namings??? "semite" is an ethnic and linguistic term which has nothing to do with religious Jew (judaism) and by reaction I never use the word "antisemitism" but "anti-Jew" or "antijudaism", or with distinct meaning: "antisionism"
for "long faces" as you wrote, be precise then:
because as a whole common people understand: "long and narrow" (proportions more than absolute sizes) -
to be precise, 'cromagnon' (original, France for the most) has a broad, square (the 2 are not linked all thetime) AND SHORT!
the only massive (large) faces that was as square as 'cromagnon''s one because their great length was along with very great breadth of face, was the 'borreby' types - its origin is not too clear for now, even if people believe it's a 'cromagnon' evolution with trend to brachycephally: as this type seams having participated into the 'est-baltic' type making, we can suppose it was frequent not only between Germany and Denmark, but too in baltic-south-Finnland regions at mesolithical time - but even in Eastern Europe regions (Russia), if I accept my recent abstracts readings the first 'cromanoids' seen (dead, not at a pub terrasse) at neolithical time end was more upon the old model of sub-dolichicephalic+euryprosope ("brachyfacial") -
So if we want understand one another let's say terms like "absolute ...", "relative length-breadth ratio" or somethings like that, giving sense...
for selection and climate, let's look at South Asia Indians: with the same colour skin or very close, we see completely different shapes for visages and skulls and bodies for people living at the same latitudes for a long enough time (25000 years, more???)
 
Sorry, and it could give some points to Templar (not for selection, but for features origins):
some oceanian populalions, like some Papoos tribes, have a dominent trend towards australoids type, but with the 'falling tip nose' trait: so the noses shape of SOME south -Amerindians could have found their origin there; but I accept that with caution, because the other traits of Papoos and Oceanians are very very scarce there -
by the way: PAPOOS ARE NOT LIVING (and I suppose since a long time) in DRY CLIMATE
good afternoon
 
some oceanian populalions, like some Papoos tribes, have a dominent trend towards australoids type, but with the 'falling tip nose' trait:
Yeah exactly, and it might be possible that they had a "founder effect" in South America, and that trait became widespread. It is all theorizing, but it is possible.

"antisemitism", nowadays, some communities or some lobbies would have right to attract and monopolize scientific namings??? "semite" is an ethnic and linguistic term which has nothing to do with religious Jew (judaism) and by reaction I never use the word "antisemitism" but "anti-Jew" or "antijudaism", or with distinct meaning: "antisionism"

Yeah I agree with you. It is ridiculous for one very small religious group to monopolize an ethnic term which was applied to dozens of different groups in the past.

the only massive (large) faces that was as square as 'cromagnon''s one because their great length was along with very great breadth of face, was the 'borreby' types - its origin is not too clear for now, even if people believe it's a 'cromagnon' evolution with trend to brachycephally: as this type seams having participated into the 'est-baltic' type making, we can suppose it was frequent not only between Germany and Denmark, but too in baltic-south-Finnland regions at mesolithical time

I don't think East Baltids have anything to do with Cro-Magnons. They usually don't have much muscle mass and are short. Cro-Magnons on the other hand had very thick bones (which were likely accompanied with huge muscles, as the pattern tends to go), and they were extremely tall relative to other populations.

I think people confuse all Alpine-like groups to be descendants of Cro-Magnons, even though there is alot of evidence that they came MUCH later. And the time of their arrival I think coincides with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. So East Baltids would be similar to what the original Indo-Europeans looked like, Alpines were an Indo-european mix with neolithic farmers, Dinaric are Cro-Magnons mixed with neolithic farmers, and Nordics are a Cro-Magnon and Indo-European mix. And the haplogroup data tends to confirm that. Dinarics = mostly E, J1, J2, and I. Nordics = R1a, R1b, and I. East Baltids = mostly R1a. Alpines= either R1b or an R1a, E, J1, J2 mix.
 
I don't think East Baltids have anything to do with Cro-Magnons. They usually don't have much muscle mass and are short. Cro-Magnons on the other hand had very thick bones (which were likely accompanied with huge muscles, as the pattern tends to go), and they were extremely tall relative to other populations.

I think people confuse all Alpine-like groups to be descendants of Cro-Magnons, even though there is alot of evidence that they came MUCH later. And the time of their arrival I think coincides with the arrival of the Indo-Europeans. So East Baltids would be similar to what the original Indo-Europeans looked like, Alpines were an Indo-european mix with neolithic farmers, Dinaric are Cro-Magnons mixed with neolithic farmers, and Nordics are a Cro-Magnon and Indo-European mix. And the haplogroup data tends to confirm that. Dinarics = mostly E, J1, J2, and I. Nordics = R1a, R1b, and I. East Baltids = mostly R1a. Alpines= either R1b or an R1a, E, J1, J2 mix.
You don’t even know what you’re talking about. East Baltids similar to original IE speakers? :thinking: East Baltids are mostly Mongoloid. Baltids are mostly N1c1. A part of them even speak Finno-Ugric languages. R1a is the most common haplogroup in India the place of more than 1.5 billion humans.

and Nordics are actually mostly I1, N1c1 with some R1a.
 
You don’t even know what you’re talking about

You are supporting old biased theories.

East Baltids are mostly Mongoloid

They don't have epicanthic folds. Most Slavs are East Baltids, and most Slavic countries don't have high amounts of N1c1. Both Slavs and Celts share similar features, and both populations have high Indo-European haplogroups.

and Nordics are actually mostly I1


No the I1 is under 50%.

R1a is the most common haplogroup in India


Yes because of the Indo-European invasions. It is only the most common, because India has very high haplogroup diversity.
 
You are supporting old biased theories.

They don't have epicanthic folds. Most Slavs are East Baltids, and most Slavic countries don't have high amounts of N1c1. Both Slavs and Celts share similar features, and both populations have high Indo-European haplogroups.

No the I1 is under 50%.

Yes because of the Indo-European invasions. It is only the most common, because India has very high haplogroup diversity.
No, R1a is also the most frequent haplogroup in India!

Well, let see: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Estland (speakers of a Finno-Ugric language) 34% of N1c1, Latvia 38%, Lithuania 42% and I don't even speak about the Russians in that area. As you can see N1c1 id DOMINATNT and NATIVE in that part of Europe.

I bet you have some Slavic origin so you think you're a prototype of something right? Well it's very normal for human to thin egocentric.
 
No, R1a is also the most frequent haplogorup in India!

I didn't say it wasn't.

Estland (speakerof Finno Ugric language) 34% of N11, Latvia 38%, Lithuania 42% and I don’t even speak aboutthe Russians in that area. As you can see N1c1 id DOMINATNT and NATIVE in that area of Europe.

Those aren't the only countries with "East Baltid" phenotype being the dominant one. What about Poland, Ukraine, Berlarus?

I bet youhave some Slavic origin so you think you’re a prototype of something right? Well it’s very normal for human to thin egocentric.

Souths Slavs (with the exception of Slovenians and Northern Croats) have very little Slavic genes.
 
Poland is a Central European country and Polish people are actually West Slavic people something between East Germans and West Slavs. Poland has nothing to do with the steppes where according to some people proto-Indo-Europeans came from. So Polish people have nothing to do with the so called proto-IE speakers aroudn the Black Sea.
Ukrainians and White Russians are actually almost the same as Russians. Belarusians and Eastern Ukrainians speak the same language as Russians do and West Ukrainians speak almost the same language.

I speak Russian, so I can understand Ukrainian but not so good Polish.

Western Slavs are more I2a and less N1c1, while Eastern Slavs are more N1c1 and less I2a. Both groups have almost the same amout of R1a though.


Eastern Slavs and Balts are more 'Mongoloid' than Western and Southern Slavs.
 
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Poland is a Central European country and polish peopleare actually West Slavic people something between East Germans and West Slavs.Poland has nothing to do with the steppes where according to some peopleproto-Indo-Europeans came from. So Polish people have nothing to do with theproto-IE speakers.
Ukrainians and White Russians are actually almost thesame as Russians. Belarusians nad Eastern Ukrainians speak the same language asRussians and West Ukrainians speak almost the same language.
I speak Russian, so I can understand Ukrainian but not sogood Polish.

You ignored my responses and then changed the subject. We weren't talking about languages, we were talking about genetics and phenotypes. I am guessing since you won't address my replies, you admit defeat. Good. Now you understand that the Eastern European phenotype and the Celtic phenotype are the best representative of the original Indo-European appearance.
 
I am guessing since you won't address my replies, you admit defeat. Good. Now you understand that the Eastern European phenotype and the Celtic phenotype are the best representative of the original Indo-European appearance.
What defeat. What the hell are you talking about? How do you know how the original proto-IE speakers looked like? Do you have pictures??

And what have Celts (R1b +I folks) to do with this, i don't get it. Celts are totally different people than Slavs. Just some wishfull thinking, I guess.


I thought that Templars were people of knowledge and not of some b*llsh*t.
 
btw, if you speak about Indo-Europeans you speak about languages, since indo-european is a linguistic term and not a genetic one.
 
What defeat. What the hell are you talking about? How do you know how the original proto-IE speakers looked like? Do you have pictures??

And what have Celts (R1b +I folks) to do with this, i don't get it. Celts are totally different people than Slavs. Just some wishfull thinking, I guess.

We can guess what Indo-Europeans looked like by looking at the environment in which they lived, how their Y-haplogroup lineage is connected to others, and what appearance people have in countries that overwhelmingly have Indo-European haplogroups. The fact that both Celts and Slavs are stereotyped as having "round faces" is just one of the many forms of indirect evidence that we have.

Read this: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...ndo-Europeans-what-do-we-owe-to-our-ancestors

and note this part: "Neolithic to Bronze-Age steppe people appear to have had Proto-Europoid features (mixed European and Mongoloid features, although probably not slanted eyes), like wide, thick-boned faces and low skulls, which was quickly lost when they interbred with other Europeans. They almost certainly carried with them the genetic mutations for blue eyes, fair hair and red hair, as these can be found in all the regions of Eurasia that they colonised, including in the 4000 year-old Tarim mummies."

I thought that Templars were people of knowledge and not of some b*llsh*t.



​Don't be mad bro.
 
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