Genetically Southern French and most Iberians are almost identical

[Georgewalley]

On technically every PCA plot most Iberians and Southern French overlap or cluster closely together.

Even by Y-dna maps both Iberia and France seems similar

 

[Boreas]

As how you divide France into South and North. You should divide Iberians. Not All Iberians are close with them.

 

[Georgewalley]

As how you divide France into South and North. You should divide Iberians. Not All Iberians are close with them.

Most Iberian are fairly homogeneous despite how large Iberian Peninsula is. Most Andalusians for example are descendants of Northern Spaniards who repopulated the Peninsula after the moors were expelled but there were migrations from Germany and France into Andalusia as well. There's an East-West genetic cline in Iberia which shows Portuguese a bit different from Eastern Spaniards.

I think the only outlying groups in Spain are those from the Canary Islands who have an excess amount of North African admixture over 10%. A few Portuguese outliers may have recent West African, colonial ancestry which push them away to the New World direction further from the rest of Iberians from what I've noticed.

 

[binx]

This thread is extremely deceptive. What you call Southern France is a sample from the south-western France, on the border with Spain. Some might even say that those are Frenchified Iberians rather than average French.

Claiming that genetically Southwestern French and most Iberians are almost identical is almost correct. That all Southern French and most Iberians are almost identical is pretty false.

 

[hrvclv]

On technically every PCA plot most Iberians and Southern French overlap or cluster closely together.

Even by Y-dna maps both Iberia and France seems similar

Can't you SEE the graphs you post ? The PCA areas hardly even overlap...
I'm Southern France myself. We've always been ; it runs in the family. My results :
FTDNA : British Isles 69% Iberia 5%
DNA Land : NW Europe 45% SW Europe 21%
It's no surprise that two contiguous countries should plot next to each other. But by your standards, the whole of western Europe is pretty much genetically identical !

Ed. Sorry for the intrusion. I removed the garbage Stormfront map posted by Walley.

 

[Angela]

@Walley,
You really think you're going to get to post garbage, incorrect data and charts from Stormfront on this site?

Now you get an infraction, a ban, I removed the deceptive chart (the rest don't even begin to prove what you say they prove), and if your Stormfront buddies (or you under another one of your socks) come around to continue for you I'll close the thread.

That's what a fail looks like, Drac.

Why can't you and people like you just be proud of who you are?

 

[mwauthy]

Can't you SEE the graphs you post ? The PCA areas hardly even overlap...
I'm Southern France myself. We've always been ; it runs in the family. My results :
FTDNA : British Isles 69% Iberia 5%
DNA Land : NW Europe 45% SW Europe 21%
It's no surprise that two contiguous countries should plot next to each other. But by your standards, the whole of western Europe is pretty much genetically identical !

Ed. Sorry for the intrusion. I removed the garbage Stormfront map posted by Walley.

Wow 69% British Isles in Auvergne, France. FTDNA really dropped the ball on that one. I thought FTDNA was decent for people with French Ancestry because my French Canadian Mom received 99% West and Central Europe. I’m not so sure anymore after seeing your results.

 

[hrvclv]

Wow 69% British Isles in Auvergne, France. FTDNA really dropped the ball on that one. I thought FTDNA was decent for people with French Ancestry because my French Canadian Mom received 99% West and Central Europe. I’m not so sure anymore after seeing your results.

Yes... My FTDNA results kinda left me wondering... Either I emerged from a local pocket of "relic Celts" (which might be, given the local terrain), or FTDNA are a bit off the mark. I don't know what to make of it. I uploaded my results to diverse calculators, though, and they all tend to show, even if to a lesser degree, the same Irish/Scottish bias. Too bad my ol'man is no longer here. I'd have liked to see his results.

 

[Maciamo]

Yes... My FTDNA results kinda left me wondering... Either I emerged from a local pocket of "relic Celts" (which might be, given the local terrain), or FTDNA are a bit off the mark. I don't know what to make of it. I uploaded my results to diverse calculators, though, and they all tend to show, even if to a lesser degree, the same Irish/Scottish bias. Too bad my ol'man is no longer here. I'd have liked to see his results.

Your results are really intriguing. I haven't seen any other French people scoring so high on British Isles, and especially Ireland and Scotland. I am not even sure that the Bretons from Finistère do. If all calculators show the same trend, then it's probably not a mistake on FTDNA's part (unless they mixed up your results with someone else's). I can imagine that not all Gaulish tribes were alike genetically. Celtic tribes did tended to travel long distances and resettle relatively often (look at the Boii, Atrebates, Menapii, Tolosates, Cimbri, just to cite a few). As Gaulish tribes migrated to Britain, Central Europe, Southeast Europe and even Anatolia and Ukraine, it's conceivable that tribes from the British Isles also settled in Gaul. Perhaps the Arverni were one of them, although there is no historical indication that they came from the British Isles.

The alternative would be that Gaulish tribes were very much Irish-like and that the Romans (Roman-era inhabitants of Italy) really did replace most of the population of Gaul. It is well known that Julius Caesar exterminated about 1 million Gauls and took another million into slavery. But the Romans also settled heavily in Gaul and they did have a constant need for slaves. Over time, if male slaves are prevented from procreating and Roman citizens had a lot of illegitimate offspring with female slaves (as was certainly the case), the genetic make-up of Gaul (and other Roman provinces with significant Roman settlements like southern Iberia) would have shifted considerably toward Italy. The Franks would have shifted back the gene pool toward the north, but adding Germanic DNA, not Celtic one.

If that is what happened, that would explain why some French or Belgian people score no or very little British Isles, while other may score 20% or 30%. Your 69% is exceptional and may well be the result of a long period of isolation since Gaulish times due of the limited Roman and Frankish presence in Auvergne. But that would also mean that most modern French people have inherited little DNA from the ancient Gauls. If that is true then the association with Asterix and the use of 'Gallic' to mean French are misplaced and the average French person (outside Auvergne) would be more Roman and Germanic (Frankish, Norman, Burgundian, Visigothic) than Gaulish. One way of confirming either hypothesis is to get ancient DNA from various locations in Iron Age Gaul.

 

[Angela]

Can't you SEE the graphs you post ? The PCA areas hardly even overlap...
I'm Southern France myself. We've always been ; it runs in the family. My results :
FTDNA : British Isles 69% Iberia 5%
DNA Land : NW Europe 45% SW Europe 21%
It's no surprise that two contiguous countries should plot next to each other. But by your standards, the whole of western Europe is pretty much genetically identical !

I know you didn't ask, but imo FTDNA is absolutely among the worst in assigning ancestry percentages. Did you by chance test with 23andme? If so, would you mind revealing what you got there? Or perhaps you know other people of French descent who have tested there or with companies other than FTDNA?

 

[mwauthy]

Yes... My FTDNA results kinda left me wondering... Either I emerged from a local pocket of "relic Celts" (which might be, given the local terrain), or FTDNA are a bit off the mark. I don't know what to make of it. I uploaded my results to diverse calculators, though, and they all tend to show, even if to a lesser degree, the same Irish/Scottish bias. Too bad my ol'man is no longer here. I'd have liked to see his results.

69% British Isles is high regardless of my theory; however, I have a theory that these ethnicity estimates sometimes act like oracles on Gedmatch. Since some regions are similar to mixtures of other regions results can vary greatly. West and Central Europe is a mixture of Northern and Southern Europe alleles so if you did not receive a large West and Central Europe amount it can manifest as a mixture of British Isles and Iberia or Southeastern Europe. I’m guessing you might have received a Southeastern Europe score in the double digits while my mom received 0%?

Other examples of this are my dad’s large Europe West score on Ancestry manifested as large amounts of Scandinavia and Northern Italy on Gencove.

On Ancestry my mom received 23% Great Britain, 17% Scandinavia, 9% Ireland/Scotland/Wales while her brother received 64% Great Britain. Part of her Great Britain was separated into Scandinavia and Ireland/Scotland/Wales. Since both her and her brother did not receive Europe West they also received high Iberian Peninsula and Europe South scores to balance out their Northern European alleles with Southern European alleles.

 

[hrvclv]

Thanks for your interest. I didn't test with 23andme. I might in future.

Here below my complete FTDNA and DNALand results. These two sets of results don't really seem to agree with each other. All in all, I find those discrepant analyses more confusing than enlightening.

 

[Angela]

Thanks for your interest. I didn't test with 23andme. I might in future.

Here below my complete FTDNA and DNALand results. These two sets of results don't really seem to agree with each other. All in all, I find those discrepant analyses more confusing than enlightening.

View attachment 10253View attachment 10254

Fwiw, Dna Land makes much more sense, imo.

 

[Ygorcs]

One way of confirming either hypothesis is to get ancient DNA from various locations in Iron Age Gaul.

Do you or anyone know why (ancient) France seems to be so undersampled even now? I've seen a lot coming from Britain, from the steppes, from Iberia and Central Europe even, but most of the ancient genetic structure of France still looks clouded in mystery and doubt as far as I have read on this topic.

 

[mwauthy]

Fwiw, Dna Land makes much more sense, imo.

I agree! His ratio of Northern European vs Southern European on DNA Land seems about right for his location in France. 50/50 makes sense to me for Auvergne. My French Canadian Mom is 57/43 north vs south and my Wallonia Belgian father is 67/33.

My question is how much of that Southern European is from the Neolithic and and how much was influenced by Roman occupation and settlement?

 

[Pax Augusta]

I agree! His ratio of Northern European vs Southern European on DNA Land seems about right for his location in France. 50/50 makes sense to me for Auvergne. My French Canadian Mom is 57/43 north vs south and my Wallonia Belgian father is 67/33.

My question is how much of that Southern European is from the Neolithic and and how much was influenced by Roman occupation and settlement?

In the south of France there were the Greeks before the Romans. But I doubt they left significant traces.

 

[Maciamo]

DNA Land may appear to make more sense, but from the various DNA Land results I saw they tend to inflate the percentages of Sardinian, Finnish, North Slavic, Balkans and Ashkenazi. I compared Belgian family members with DNA Land and got completely different results. For example one had 13% of Balkans but another only 1%. One had 9% of Mediterranean island and another 0%. One person got 2% of Ashkenazi ancestry which never showed up with any other calculator. Only the Northwest European was stable at 65%. So I have my doubts about DNA Land's reliability. What's more DNA Land lacks a category for Italian ancestry (well, so does FTDNA, but not 23andMe or Living DNA).

 

[hrvclv]

Just ordered 23andme test. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Boreas]

DNA Land may appear to make more sense, but from the various DNA Land results I saw they tend to inflate the percentages of Sardinian, Finnish, North Slavic, Balkans and Ashkenazi. I compared Belgian family members with DNA Land and got completely different results. For example one had 13% of Balkans but another only 1%. One had 9% of Mediterranean island and another 0%. One person got 2% of Ashkenazi ancestry which never showed up with any other calculator. Only the Northwest European was stable at 65%. So I have my doubts about DNA Land's reliability. What's more DNA Land lacks a category for Italian ancestry (well, so does FTDNA, but not 23andMe or Living DNA).

Definately Finnish results are extreme

 

[mwauthy]

DNA Land may appear to make more sense, but from the various DNA Land results I saw they tend to inflate the percentages of Sardinian, Finnish, North Slavic, Balkans and Ashkenazi. I compared Belgian family members with DNA Land and got completely different results. For example one had 13% of Balkans but another only 1%. One had 9% of Mediterranean island and another 0%. One person got 2% of Ashkenazi ancestry which never showed up with any other calculator. Only the Northwest European was stable at 65%. So I have my doubts about DNA Land's reliability. What's more DNA Land lacks a category for Italian ancestry (well, so does FTDNA, but not 23andMe or Living DNA).

I agree that DNA Land has some consistency issues. There were some big differences between my 23andMe data and my Ancestry data uploads. I wonder which raw data is more compatible with their algorithm? There were also some inconsistencies between my results and my parents results.

Finnish and North Slavic are over estimated in Western Europeans but I think it’s due to there not being a North Central European category or reference group. So any northern dna that doesn’t match British, Orkney Islands, Iceland, and Norway go to Finnish and North Slavic by default.

I also think there is some overlap amongst the Mediterranean or Southern categories like Southwest, Sardinia, South Central, and Mediterranean Islander.

I think DNA Land does do a good job of differentiating Northern European dna from Southern European. Their categories make a lot more sense to me than saying a Belgian is Irish, British, Scandinavian, and Europe West because of all the overlapping alleles amongst those 4 categories.