Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

[Archetype0ne]

I agree on Peloponnesus, but not necessarily as we move north into the proto-Greek region where we also find the origin of the Dorians (namely Pindus mountain range more or less), or even Thrace. Here is the respective Global 25 autosomal map for the Iron Age Bulgarian (namely Thracian) for example.

It does appear to have a similar drift towards central Italy, as the Crete_Armenoi sample did per the Dodecad K7b distance results that @Angela shared above. Maybe i am wrong, but that's what it looks like to me from a simple observation. As for Classical Peloponnesians, for all we know they might largely be assimilated Achaeans/Arcadocypriots (who were themselves largely assimilated pre-Greeks), but i wouldn't be so sure about central and northern Dorians. It goes without saying that in order to be certain we also need Classical samples from Peloponnesus. Maybe they will be included in the upcoming paper, but for now we only know of Ambracian samples that will be presented.

Here is Minoan and Mycenean also done by ph2ter:

Here is mine

Edit: These maps are "G25 Distance Maps To Modern Europeans". Many more interesting maps done by ph2ter can be found here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18960-G25-Distance-Maps-To-Modern-Europeans

 

[Demetrios]

Here is Minoan and Mycenean also done by ph2ter:
Here is mine

Thanks mate. We did touch upon those in page 68. We also had exchanged some PMs about it back in November, so i am aware of your results as well.

 

[Archetype0ne]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks mate. We did touch upon those in page 68. We also had exchanged some PMs about it back in November, so i am aware of your results as well.[/FONT]

My bad, had forgotten this was already mentioned in this thread.

One observation of mine is that that IA BGR sample looks very similar to both the Mycenean and Minoan ones in the "G25 distance to modern Europeans".
Do you think Thracians and Myceneans, Minoans were of a similar stock?

 

[Demetrios]

My bad, had forgotten this was already mentioned in this thread.

One observation of mine is that that IA BGR sample looks very similar to both the Mycenean and Minoan ones in the "G25 distance to modern Europeans".
Do you think Thracians and Myceneans, Minoans were of a similar stock?

Most of the southern/central/eastern Balkans must have had a close autosomal affinity. I am not sure about northwestern Balkans though who show less uniformity (the thread includes MBA and IA Croatians). I believe the autosomal picture of the ancient Balkans is most accurately presented in modern-day Italy, rather than in the Balkans themselves, taking into account the Medieval migrations that have affected palaeo-Balkan populations such as Greeks and Albanians.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

Demetrios: Thanks for the post and information above in post 2024. It is consistent with what I have read in the extant literature. Here are my Dodecad 7B for the data Jovialis provided. Hope all is well.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]PalermoTrapani[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]5.34140431[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]6.45593525[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]8.70789871[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7000, align: right"]11.70746343[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.34228991[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.73657526[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1D00, align: right"]14.14548338[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0005, align: right"]15.13739410[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0011, align: right"]15.50460899[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0029, align: right"]16.19644097[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003F, align: right"]16.85183373[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF004A, align: right"]17.19064571[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0061, align: right"]17.84991597[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF006C, align: right"]18.17824524[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0088, align: right"]19.00934244[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0095, align: right"]19.36881772[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00C0, align: right"]20.65580306[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DD, align: right"]21.49435740[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E000FF, align: right"]23.40739413[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 5.3414% / 5.34140431 | ADC: 2x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

---

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 4.4120% / 4.41203743 | ADC: 1x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]69.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]27.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

---

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 1.7956% / 1.79561943 | ADC: 0.5x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]63.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]29.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

---

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: PalermoTrapani
Distance: 1.4926% / 1.49259517 | ADC: 0.25x
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]65.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]34.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Most of the southern/central/eastern Balkans must have had a close autosomal affinity. I am not sure about northwestern Balkans though who show less uniformity (the thread includes MBA and IA Croatians). I believe the autosomal picture of the ancient Balkans is most accurately presented in modern-day Italy, rather than in the Balkans themselves, taking into account the Medieval migrations that have affected palaeo-Balkan populations such as Greeks and Albanians.

In the Mediterranean continuum study the mainland Greeks and Albanians were detached a bit in a northward direction from Sicily, southern Italy and Aegean islands. The south Balkans however does show a relatively strong affinity to regional Bronze Age populations, as originally displayed in the Lazaridis study.

A relative took a commercial ancestry test and affinities are seen in various regional places, including, interestingly, western and central rather than eastern Crete.

 

[Demetrios]

In the Mediterranean continuum study the mainland Greeks and Albanians were detached a bit in a northward direction from Sicily, southern Italy and Aegean islands. The south Balkans however does show a relatively strong affinity to regional Bronze Age populations, as originally displayed in the Lazaridis study.

A relative took a commercial ancestry test and affinities are seen in various regional places, including, interestingly, western and central rather than eastern Crete.
View attachment 12037

I did touch upon this paper here, https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page80?p=597669&viewfull=1#post597669. As it puts it, "Population expansions during the Middle Ages, for instance those related to the Slavic migrations, could have affected Albania and Continental Greece at least indirectly as a result of subsequent population contacts. We may therefore hypothesize that present-day mainland Greek and Southern Balkan populations detached from a genetic background originally shared with the ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’ (i.e. Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek-islands) after these recent events which interested the Balkan Peninsula in historical times.".

As for the second point on the Lazaridis study, you are correct again. As that paper puts it specifically on Mycenaeans, "Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy, part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble present-day inhabitants from the same region.".

 

[D.L.M]

I agree on Peloponnesus, but not necessarily as we move north into the proto-Greek region where we also find the origin of the Dorians (namely Pindus mountain range more or less), or even Thrace. Here is the respective Global 25 autosomal map for the Iron Age Bulgarian (namely Thracian) for example.

It does appear to have a similar drift towards central Italy, as the Crete_Armenoi sample did per the Dodecad K7b distance results that @Angela shared above. Maybe i am wrong, but that's what it looks like to me from a simple observation. As for Classical Peloponnesians, for all we know they might largely be assimilated Achaeans/Arcadocypriots (who were themselves largely assimilated pre-Greeks), but i wouldn't be so sure about central and northern Dorians. It goes without saying that in order to be certain we also need Classical samples from Peloponnesus. Maybe they will be included in the upcoming paper, but for now we only know of Ambracian samples that will be presented.

Crete Armenoi is closer to Bulgarians than it is to Myceaneans, isn't that alarming enough that it is not an accurate model?
As for the rest I agree the Epirotes and Macedonians might be closer to Thracians than ancient Peloponnesians but still Thracians are closer to Myceaneans than mainland Greeks are.

 

[Angela]

Is this sample 15769?

If so, and fwiw:
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD100, align: right"]8.85352472[/TD]
[TD]Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm half Tuscan, more or less, so I thought I'd be closer.

I'm closer to 13313, but I know that some more northern Italians are even closer.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Angela[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.06036303[/TD]
[TD]I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I think I may have asked before, but I've forgotten the answer. What are the distances to Greeks and Albanians and Bulgarians?

 

[torzio]

Crete Armenoi is closer to Bulgarians than it is to Myceaneans, isn't that alarming enough that it is not an accurate model?
As for the rest I agree the Epirotes and Macedonians might be closer to Thracians than ancient Peloponnesians but still Thracians are closer to Myceaneans than mainland Greeks are.

I sit at the top of the letter L in north-Italian.......I am surprised that I3313 is slightly north of myself .............although I am closer to R1 and SZ1 samples

 

[matadworf]

8.10124682I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
11.23290701I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
12.00656071I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
13.72024781I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
18.74095515I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
21.33123063I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
21.43208343I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
21.69369033I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
21.86606046I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta
23.18149693I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
24.19380086I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
24.29362468I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
24.86041029I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
24.97441291I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
26.69673388I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
27.08157676I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
27.29426130I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-

Distance: 4.8511% / 4.85107036

76.8I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
23.2I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta

 

[Salento]

I sit at the top of the letter L in north-Italian.......I am surprised that I3313 is slightly north of myself .............although I am closer to R1 and SZ1 samples

... sharing with me the same chromosome segment (.. common ancestry) :

I3313 / I5769 and SZ1 / I5769 /...

SZ1 must be a Top Ancient Matrix

 

[torzio]

... sharing with me the same chromosome segment (.. common ancestry) :

I3313 / I5769 and SZ1 / I5769 /...

... SZ1 must be a Top Ancient Matrix

Also note that SZ1 is not Lombard as some think it is, it was found the age of sample to be from late bronze age , found near the current capital of Croatia

R1 is circa 950Bc ...a bit younger than SZ1

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Crete Armenoi is closer to Bulgarians than it is to Myceaneans, isn't that alarming enough that it is not an accurate model?
As for the rest I agree the Epirotes and Macedonians might be closer to Thracians than ancient Peloponnesians but still Thracians are closer to Myceaneans than mainland Greeks are.

From the graph or PC map it looks like the Thracian is roughly on the same southern plane as C. Greek, but further west toward Italy. Do the Mycenaeans plot further west as well?

 

[D.L.M]

From the graph or PC map it looks like the Thracian is roughly on the same southern plane as C. Greek, but further west toward Italy. Do the Mycenaeans plot further west as well?

Central Greek is an islander from Athens.
Myceaneans plot slighty west of Sicilians but not as west as the Thracian.

 

[Demetrios]

Here is again the Eurogenes K15 PCA of the Crete_Armenoi sample in gold and the four Mycenaean ones in purple for comparison. I also have it in page 80. I would say it is closer to Thessaly than the Iron Age Bulgarian (Thracian) sample. I am myself almost on top of Thessaly as well. Although as Lazaridis had posted in 2017, the Crete_Armenoi sample is a low quality sample, https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/status/892931776372498434.

 

[Angela]

Crete Armenoi is from a later period than the Myceneaens, so I originally thought perhaps it was just the result of later admixture culture wide. I no longer believe that's the case. I then thought perhaps it was just an outlier, the product of some individual admixture with a mate from elsewhere.

However, given the bad quality of the sample I'm really not drawing any conclusions from it, and sort of ignoring my own match with it, even though it's my best using the K12b.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]5.96067110[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]5.96285167[/TD]
[TD]I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.06036303[/TD]
[TD]I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]6.16793320[/TD]
[TD]R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]6.20598904[/TD]
[TD]R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]6.36315173[/TD]
[TD]Szolad43[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Fwiw, it doesn't even show up in my top 50 matches on mta, so I don't know what's going on there. Every other good match I get on K12b shows up there, usually with closer distance.

 

[Demetrios]

Crete Armenoi is from a later period than the Myceneaens, so I originally thought perhaps it was just the result of later admixture culture wide. I no longer believe that's the case. I then thought perhaps it was just an outlier, the product of some individual admixture with a mate from elsewhere.

However, given the bad quality of the sample I'm really not drawing any conclusions from it, and sort of ignoring my own match with it, even though it's my best using the K12b.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]5.96067110[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]5.96285167[/TD]
[TD]I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]6.06036303[/TD]
[TD]I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]6.16793320[/TD]
[TD]R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]6.20598904[/TD]
[TD]R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]6.36315173[/TD]
[TD]Szolad43[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Fwiw, it doesn't even show up in my top 50 matches on mta, so I don't know what's going on there. Every other good match I get on K12b shows up there, usually with closer distance.

I agree, we need more data for safer conclusions. By the way, does MTA even have Crete_Armenoi in its spreadsheet? I can only hypothesize that it isn't included.

 

[Angela]

I agree, we need more data for safer conclusions. By the way, does MTA even have Crete_Armenoi in its spreadsheet? I can only hypothesize that it isn't included.

I didn't even know they had a spread sheet, so you've got me beat.

Maybe that's the reason.

 

[D.L.M]

Bulgaria_IA is a Thracians.