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E-V13 subclades in Greece

I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.


You need to start reading about Noricum and the original homeland of the illyrians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

Halstatt culture is also based on a celtic people mixing from south-germany and illyrian people from East-Austria.............Halstatt means salt town, with Hal meaning salt in Illyrian and statt meaning town in celtic ( the germans changed statt to stadt for town later on ).

Dalmatians migrated from noricum to the adriatic as noted by historians

Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info
 
You need to start reading about Noricum and the original homeland of the illyrians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum

Halstatt culture is also based on a celtic people mixing from south-germany and illyrian people from East-Austria.............Halstatt means salt town, with Hal meaning salt in Illyrian and statt meaning town in celtic ( the germans changed statt to stadt for town later on ).

Dalmatians migrated from noricum to the adriatic as noted by historians

Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info

Lets get something absolutely clear. Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA do not go hand in hand(sometimes they do). For the most part they do not. Albanians are in fact descendants of Illyrians by Y-DNA. Maybe autosomally and linguistically there is no connection. This is besides the point though.

It is irrelevant whether or not Illyrians were Albanians. Many Albanian men are descended from them by their Y-DNA. So far, the only remains associated with Illyrians based on geography are those that were discovered(E-V13/J2b/R1b). Albanians have these lineages in higher percentages than their neighbors.

I do agree we are linked more with Greeks and Tuscans autosomally speaking. Paternally however, this seems less likey. Greeks are overwhelmingly J2a, compared to J2b Albanians. The fact that J2b was discovered in Croatia, there is no doubt its probably a lineage that participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. Otherwise it would not be the father branch Albanians belong. The problem stems from every laymen laying claim to ancient tribes, by associating modern ethnicities. In doing so the picture becomes very fragmented.

People need to learn how to separate language culture and Y-DNA. They are not always directly correlated. Proto-Albanians were probably more steppe shifted when they entered the Balkans. Those steppe shifted proto-Albanians would have been autosomally closer to Illyrians. Upon mixing with the southern paleobalkan folk we could have assimilated the lineages that are most dominant in us today, including inheriting higher Neolithic mixture. Remember, language, culture, etc, are all social constructs. Genetics needs to be kept separate from this strawman rhetoric people play.

As a culture illyrians do not exist any more. Linguistically as I stated there is little to no evidence to make any concrete assertions regarding their direct descendant. Even if we linguistically were Illyrians, time, history, movement of peoples, evolution of education and culture, would all contribute to the very different nature of the language today. The fact remains, Albanians as a people(not a language) largely descend from peoples who predate the indo Europeans since the Neolithic.

No matter what naysayers will say, Albanians didn't just show up from thin air. Nor are they from the Caucasus; a theory that no serious professional considers. If I had to tell you how many times I have heard this theory, 9/10 were from Serbs.
 
DNA might say one thing or two. At the end of the day of course, what matters is the way of upbringing a person has. More or less, I mean the culture one receives.
 
I agree with literally everything you said Dibran.

This is for non balkan lurkers who may not be aware:

Please lets remember that not a single example of the Illyrian language actually exists.

So whenever you read an article about linguists proving the Illyrian language has NOTHING to do with albanian,
or in the obverse; is the EXACT SAME as Albanian, ask yourself how this conclusion has been reached.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also something that needs to be recognized:

Producing a Yugoslavian map as evidence that toponyms are not of Albanian origin is NOT solid evidence.
Yugoslavia was founded with the explicit goal of establishing a slavic ethno-kingdom.
This meant the removal of non-Slav cultural, linguistic and ethnic elements on an institutional scale.
No chance they were going to name sites with Albanian names on these maps.
Even today in Kosovo for every Serbian name of a village or town there is a parallel name in Albanian.
For example the town Podujevo(Serbian) is called Besianë by the Albanians.



Albanians are more linked genetically with greeks and Etruscans ( tuscans ), they do not have any genetic link with central europe unless you can provide info

While i'm not aware of any genetic evidence as of yet, Vladimir Orel provides unexpected linguistic evidence for this in his book "A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language / Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian" :

0OiMi8P.png
 
DNA might say one thing or two. At the end of the day of course, what matters is the way of upbringing a person has. More or less, I mean the culture one receives.

Exactly. Culturally speaking I'm Albanian American. Genetically Albanian. My ancestors as far back as is known were Albanian. Before then who knows. Things are in constant flux. No culture should be glorified idolistically. Culture should seek to constantly grow expand and change with every new innovation(hopefully good ones). I don't think any of us would want to knit our own clothes anymore, let alone use a scythe to cut grass anymore lol.

Think about how dull and droll the world and peoples would be if cultures did not interact and exchange. Especially how phenotypically inbred people would be. Lol
 
Lets get something absolutely clear. Y-DNA and Autosomal DNA do not go hand in hand(sometimes they do). For the most part they do not. Albanians are in fact descendants of Illyrians by Y-DNA. Maybe autosomally and linguistically there is no connection. This is besides the point though.
It is irrelevant whether or not Illyrians were Albanians. Many Albanian men are descended from them by their Y-DNA. So far, the only remains associated with Illyrians based on geography are those that were discovered(E-V13/J2b/R1b). Albanians have these lineages in higher percentages than their neighbors.
I do agree we are linked more with Greeks and Tuscans autosomally speaking. Paternally however, this seems less likey. Greeks are overwhelmingly J2a, compared to J2b Albanians. The fact that J2b was discovered in Croatia, there is no doubt its probably a lineage that participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. Otherwise it would not be the father branch Albanians belong. The problem stems from every laymen laying claim to ancient tribes, by associating modern ethnicities. In doing so the picture becomes very fragmented.
People need to learn how to separate language culture and Y-DNA. They are not always directly correlated. Proto-Albanians were probably more steppe shifted when they entered the Balkans. Those steppe shifted proto-Albanians would have been autosomally closer to Illyrians. Upon mixing with the southern paleobalkan folk we could have assimilated the lineages that are most dominant in us today, including inheriting higher Neolithic mixture. Remember, language, culture, etc, are all social constructs. Genetics needs to be kept separate from this strawman rhetoric people play.
As a culture illyrians do not exist any more. Linguistically as I stated there is little to no evidence to make any concrete assertions regarding their direct descendant. Even if we linguistically were Illyrians, time, history, movement of peoples, evolution of education and culture, would all contribute to the very different nature of the language today. The fact remains, Albanians as a people(not a language) largely descend from peoples who predate the indo Europeans since the Neolithic.
No matter what naysayers will say, Albanians didn't just show up from thin air. Nor are they from the Caucasus; a theory that no serious professional considers. If I had to tell you how many times I have heard this theory, 9/10 were from Serbs.
very doubtful,
texts about illyrian appear more than 500 years before in Noricum than they appear in modern montengro or albania .
It is more likely the albanian are of Thracian, macedonian or greek descent .............which again matches the ydna
The pre-roman studies of NE-italy which at the time was part illyrian, cities like Oderzo, Udine and triese to name 3 had
24% of I-M253
24% of R1b-U106
9% of J2b
15% of R1a
7% of E-M78
5% of G
3.8% of T
2% of L
1% of the following E-M34, E-M123, I-S23 and J1-M267
below are illyrian names from Noricum............if you want more I will provide
 
I agree with literally everything you said Dibran.

This is for non balkan lurkers who may not be aware:

Please lets remember that not a single example of the Illyrian language actually exists.

So whenever you read an article about linguists proving the Illyrian language has NOTHING to do with albanian,
or in the obverse; is the EXACT SAME as Albanian, ask yourself how this conclusion has been reached.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Also something that needs to be recognized:

Producing a Yugoslavian map as evidence that toponyms are not of Albanian origin is NOT solid evidence.
Yugoslavia was founded with the explicit goal of establishing a slavic ethno-kingdom.
This meant the removal of non-Slav cultural, linguistic and ethnic elements on an institutional scale.
No chance they were going to name sites with Albanian names on these maps.
Even today in Kosovo for every Serbian name of a village or town there is a parallel name in Albanian.
For example the town Podujevo(Serbian) is called Besianë by the Albanians.





While i'm not aware of any genetic evidence as of yet, Vladimir Orel provides unexpected linguistic evidence for this in his book "A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language / Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian" :

0OiMi8P.png


I completely agree as well. Even the Austrian Albanologists who are only looking at a 1000 year old Albanian written work, have noted numerous differences from it and modern Albanian. Such a short span of time and radical change of a language makes the situation much more delicate, and more care must be taken before things are completely ruled out. If the connection to Central Europe is true, it could open up numerous scenarios. Connection could be by way of linguistic continuation. Perhaps Proto Albanians were a native entity that migrating Illyrians pushed further south towards Mat. Another possibility is that Illyrians weren't even one singular ethnic group. I think this is the likely scenario. Much like today's Americans call everyone in the Balkans Yugoslavian, in the same sense this term could have been applied broadly by the Romans and Greeks, to a people of varied origin. It would explain why they were never truly united and only functioned like a loose federation of tribes. Perhaps this is what leads to confusion of classifying them as Centum or Satem. Perhaps because there were certain competing elements within. I imagine northwest Illyrians were more akin to their progenitors whilst south Illyrians became a hodge podge between the host culture and natives. I'm sure time will reveal this. Especially with the rate genetics is expanding, including the methods whereby to extract DNA from remains that may have previously been problematic. I reckon the truth won't really confirm to anyone's specific desires but may lie somewhere in the middle.
 
very doubtful,
texts about illyrian appear more than 500 years before in Noricum than they appear in modern montengro or albania .
It is more likely the albanian are of Thracian, macedonian or greek descent .............which again matches the ydna
The pre-roman studies of NE-italy which at the time was part illyrian, cities like Oderzo, Udine and triese to name 3 had
24% of I-M253
24% of R1b-U106
9% of J2b
15% of R1a
7% of E-M78
5% of G
3.8% of T
2% of L
1% of the following E-M34, E-M123, I-S23 and J1-M267
below are illyrian names from Noricum............if you want more I will provide


I think Thracian is more likely for Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians considering where the majority of their tribes inhabited. No pure anything exists anymore. You will not find speakers of the dead language or pure genetic descendants. Them and there deeds are to history. Today's nations are new nations that developed from the collection of these tribes Ilin some proportion or other. I'm not ruling anything out though given that in the professional sector these all remain theory. Until there's evidence for or against anything, all remains speculative fancy. Some well educated guesses, mostly bullshit.

Concerning YDNA, you still seem to be Misunderstanding the clear evidence these haplogroups(EV13/J2b/R1b) participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. It's not like we are pulling this stuff out of a hat. Remains were discovered in the lands encompassing "Illyria". Said remains belonged to the father clade of Albanian J2b2 and E-V13. The same haplgroups(regardless if Albanian language has nothing to do with them) are present in Neolithic Balkans and therefore most probably participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. . The original Illyrians maybe didn't possess it. That's because Proto Illyrians were another culture entirely. Illyrians upon entering the Balkans would have assimilated these lineages.

I personally think Albanians split off from a common ancestor with Greeks, and that they were already natives prior to the arrival of Illyrians, but like the Vlachs, were a isolated pocket of nomadic tribes. Upon intermixing with Illyrians romans Thracians slavs etc, that surviving clan of mountain folk would pool together to form modern Albanians. I imagine Illyrians participated moreso in Albanians and western south Slavic ethnogenesis whereas Macedonia Thracian Dacian noreso absorbed by Macedonians Bulgarians eastern Serbs Romanians etc. it's not one size fits all. The truth and sequence of events in history were not linear but very static.

I always enjoy history and acquisition of information. Please post links that I may read when I have the time.
 
I have no doubt Albanians are largely descended from Illyrians, at least paternally(E-V13/J2b2/some R1b). Linguistically there is very little evidence for or against the connection, so until further evidence surfaces, its just going to be more of the same bs theories. I think even if there was linguistic evidence that surfaced, many neighbors would deny it for the sheer fact we are Albanians. When someone brings themselves to hate a thing, they will be too blind to see the lies they perpetuate. Its human. If people do not know how to organize their hate, and not let it overcome their decision making, they tend to run with pure desire and agenda. Even with the evidence that genetically Albanians are largely natives, whether the language is Illyrian or not, you still see people trying to deny the truth.


It depends on what the original carriers of this branch called themselves. Though, as mentioned prior, Proto-Croats are not ethnically, culturally and patrilineally the same as Modern Croats. I agree when you say(assuming it is mostly common among Croats) that Croatians themselves descend from these proto-Croatians. But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect, at least from a wording point of view. I would imagine if other Balkan peoples with this branch come directly from Modern Croatian peoples, that they should have a younger TMRCA related to this connection. However, if their TMRCA match that of the older movements of that clade, then the proper statement would be that Balkan peoples with I-S17250 are descended from Proto-Croats, rather than more recent middle age Croatians. For example, if an I2a slav only became Greek 200 years ago, then his TMRCA and mutations should reflect the shift. However, if his TMRCA dates back to the inception of the line, then it would be more appropriate to assign it to Proto-Croats. The oldest to carry this mutation was discovered in a medieval slav from Poland is this correct? Assuming this branch is part of I2-Din. If that is the same sample, then, given current evidence, I would agree with you considering where the branch was discovered.


Dibran the language aspirations does not fit for Illyrian ancestry,

exclude V-13, cause its pre-IE,

V-13 did not spoke IE, how fantastic is to speak Illyrian or Albanian

J2 is a strange case,

for example we know that Both Myceneans and Minoans were J2a1
but only Myceneans are consider as a characteristic IE

Noricum is the motherland of Illyrians
Sile is correct
and their language was Celtic,
Like Aromanian.
in Fact at linguistic terms Aromanians (Remenii|) have more possibility to be Illyrians, that have Albanians,

these are θεσεις theseis, basic accepted to establish the Theorema.


to end, the bellow is fact. wanted or not,
Albanians have a genetical connection with W Aimos peninsula,
but not a linguistic,
if they were Illyrians they should clearly speak a centum language,
close to N Italian, with enough Germanic

you need another theory or axioma to use as accepted, to found as accepted,

look for example me.
I am G2a3, mt X2
my HG might be in Greece before the arrival of IE Mycenean or Greeks, or after
my ancestors maybe spoke summerian or Hatti or whatever,
today I consider my shelf a Greek, by tradition of family,
same is for most the HG in Balkans, even I Hg,
except R1b R1a,
and the strange role of J2 in IE


Illyrians
were a celtic tribe,
their origin was Noricum modern Austria,
they descent all down to what Pliny names as Illyria proprie Dicti,

do not mix the Illyrians with Illyricum,
the first were a tribe, the second were Roman citizenship after a Huge province.
 
Dibran the language aspirations does not fit for Illyrian ancestry,

exclude V-13, cause its pre-IE,

V-13 did not spoke IE, how fantastic is to speak Illyrian or Albanian

J2 is a strange case,

for example we know that Both Myceneans and Minoans were J2a1
but only Myceneans are consider as a characteristic IE

Noricum is the motherland of Illyrians
Sile is correct
and their language was Celtic,
Like Aromanian.
in Fact at linguistic terms Aromanians (Remenii|) have more possibility to be Illyrians, that have Albanians,

these are θεσεις theseis, basic accepted to establish the Theorema.


to end, the bellow is fact. wanted or not,
Albanians have a genetical connection with W Aimos peninsula,
but not a linguistic,
if they were Illyrians they should clearly speak a centum language,
close to N Italian, with enough Germanic

you need another theory or axioma to use as accepted, to found as accepted,

look for example me.
I am G2a3, mt X2
my HG might be in Greece before the arrival of IE Mycenean or Greeks, or after
my ancestors maybe spoke summerian or Hatti or whatever,
today I consider my shelf a Greek, by tradition of family,
same is for most the HG in Balkans, even I Hg,
except R1b R1a,
and the strange role of J2 in IE


Illyrians
were a celtic tribe,
their origin was Noricum modern Austria,
they descent all down to what Pliny names as Illyria proprie Dicti,

do not mix the Illyrians with Illyricum,
the first were a tribe, the second were Roman citizenship after a Huge province.

maybe hey we're. Maybe they weren't. Like I said, no evidence for or against. Very little of anything but sparse words exist. There is no solid consensus because there is no abundant evidence. Just fragments to which people attempt well educated guesses based on historical documentation which itself is a written work that may not be completely reliable. Hence the reason for archeology to confirm or reject historical claims. As any individual with common sense should understand, history is not a stand in for reality, but a perspective from the dominant tribe. Propaganda of the time if you will. Point is your claim is just as flimsy as that of Albanians claiming a connection. It's just guesswork until evidence is available. Until that it's all a waste of bickering. If you cared to read anything I said, I stated E-V13 is Neolithic not Illyrian. I also stated as would any common sense individual, that e-V13 most definitely participated in the ethnogenesis of Illyrians as did they many other tribes who absorbed their peoples. It is irrelevant whether or not Albanian has anything to do with the language. I have repeated this over and over. The fact remains, a good majority of Albanian men are paternally descended from Neolithic natives. Regardless of whether or not we spoke Illyrian or them pre indo European. Fact is fact, Albanians are largely natives. But I know I am speaking to a wall because you will resort to forming an argument where no argument should even exist considering there is no evidence to argue over. Just fanciful desires.
 
I think Thracian is more likely for Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians considering where the majority of their tribes inhabited. No pure anything exists anymore. You will not find speakers of the dead language or pure genetic descendants. Them and there deeds are to history. Today's nations are new nations that developed from the collection of these tribes Ilin some proportion or other. I'm not ruling anything out though given that in the professional sector these all remain theory. Until there's evidence for or against anything, all remains speculative fancy. Some well educated guesses, mostly bullshit.
Concerning YDNA, you still seem to be Misunderstanding the clear evidence these haplogroups(EV13/J2b/R1b) participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. It's not like we are pulling this stuff out of a hat. Remains were discovered in the lands encompassing "Illyria". Said remains belonged to the father clade of Albanian J2b2 and E-V13. The same haplgroups(regardless if Albanian language has nothing to do with them) are present in Neolithic Balkans and therefore most probably participated in Illyrian ethnogenesis. . The original Illyrians maybe didn't possess it. That's because Proto Illyrians were another culture entirely. Illyrians upon entering the Balkans would have assimilated these lineages.
I personally think Albanians split off from a common ancestor with Greeks, and that they were already natives prior to the arrival of Illyrians, but like the Vlachs, were a isolated pocket of nomadic tribes. Upon intermixing with Illyrians romans Thracians slavs etc, that surviving clan of mountain folk would pool together to form modern Albanians. I imagine Illyrians participated moreso in Albanians and western south Slavic ethnogenesis whereas Macedonia Thracian Dacian noreso absorbed by Macedonians Bulgarians eastern Serbs Romanians etc. it's not one size fits all. The truth and sequence of events in history were not linear but very static.
I always enjoy history and acquisition of information. Please post links that I may read when I have the time.
Thracians have been recorded in the balkans from 3200BC , they have no slav association until AD times
below is a map I created based on the period of 1200BC - 550BC ( before the celtic invasion of Italy )
thracians ruled most of the balkans along with the Greeks ................the Dorians are a puzzle
 
Thracians have been recorded in the balkans from 3200BC , they have no slav association until AD times
below is a map I created based on the period of 1200BC - 550BC ( before the celtic invasion of Italy )
thracians ruled most of the balkans along with the Greeks ................the Dorians are a puzzle

i didn't say Slavs were a direct link in a linguistic sense. Just that they absorbed Thracians while Albanians absorbed Illyrians. Though I never knew Thracians stretched to the extent of the whole Balkans. Do you have any reputable sources for this? In all I have read of them they never extended that far west. Do cite the sources if you can.
 
@Dibran, I gotta hand it to you. You're a patient and kind person. Although deep inside I feel that you wonder why some people don't understand you nor grasp any facts you're throwing at them.

As an American (the understanding and politically correct kind), you probably think it's because of English being their 2nd or 3rd language, but a hidden dark side in you quietly wonders of possible IQ/racism induced barriers.
 
That's what I thought. In the end genes will say everything, there is no hiding.
Some will cry afterwards but we have respect genetic truth.

But you deny yourself.

Look at E1b-L618 P.E.R. 5485 BC.

Proto-Illyrians were somewhere in Western Iran, Eastern Anatolia, or surrounding, not in Balkans.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.

You can see how big is your mistake, 1 year, + 1 year, + 1 year + 1 year ... + 1 year = 3.485 years.

This E1b which you gave is not Illyrian marker.

I told you when you don't know context you know nothing.
 
oh boy

at the end I am from Y-DNA from Africa Homo Sapiens
and from mt DNA from Neantherthal from Caucasus,

so I am an Afro-Asian European,

YOU MISS THE POINT,

Hrvat, go tell your neighbour, that is not I2, that he is not Croat,
even if he lost his father or his grand father in a war for Croatia,

JUST STUPIDITY

He has nationalisic agenda, but it is not so problem, that he don't try put his agenda in absolutistic claims.

I told him several times if he is so sure in his claims why he don't public in any scientific paper.

But he cannot because his absolutic claims has no link with science and he don't have intellectual capacity for science.

Even he does not appreciate science and thinks scientists are not worth to attention.

So he can write what want who cares.
 
No serious historians or linguists support the Serbian wet dream of the Caucasus theory. I wouldn't worry too much. Those who have common sense regarding the matter don't entertain the idea of that theory. Those that do usually have an agenda or don't care to do serious research.

Dibran
Don't listen this nationalistic crap.

In Serbia even children in schools learn that Albanians are Illyrians.

For writing about national history every minority has right arrange how thinks, and I agree with it, democratic rights are most important.

But I thinks, and more time I told, Albanians generally, it is not offense, have no critical thinking.

I know that Enver Hoxha hurt the entire society from school system to science to prove that Albanian is Illyrian, and he failed, I show what scientists say although I know that many Albanians don't want hear it.

I don't use Serbian sources, or very rarely, some Serbian scientists claim that Albanians are descendants of Illyrian, but mostly scientists do almost different threads, even national (Serbian) history is not in focus.

Serbs generally, especially intellectuals, are global oriented, yes there are people who try spread nationalistic agenda but they are out of Serbian mainstream.
 
Albanian J2 is actually overwhelmingly J2b2-L283 (J-L283). On average it makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA. The same haplogroup was found in Bronze Age Dalmatia ca. 1550 BC.
Haplogroup R1b makes up 20-25% of Albanian Y-DNA as well. R1b-Z2103 was found in the Vucedol Culture ca. 2725 BC.
ancientDNAFinal-1-905x509.jpg


Source: The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (samples: I4331, I3499, I3948)

So all three major Albanian Y-DNA haplogroups in ancient DNA have been found in Western Balkans (Illyrian territory).

No.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia.

It means E1b-L618, 5485 BC and R1b-Z2103, 2725 BC have nothing with Illyrians.

Illyrians formed 1200 BC, some source claims 1000 BC, some sources 1500 BC, it doesn't matter.

From these three samples only J2b2-L283 could be Mycenaean or Proto-Illyrian, we had polemics and you told that sample is child, I know but and Mycenaeans could have children.
 
But you deny yourself.

Look at E1b-L618 P.E.R. 5485 BC.

Proto-Illyrians were somewhere in Western Iran, Eastern Anatolia, or surrounding, not in Balkans.

Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC.

You can see how big is your mistake, 1 year, + 1 year, + 1 year + 1 year ... + 1 year = 3.485 years.

This E1b which you gave is not Illyrian marker.

I told you when you don't know context you know nothing.


How it is not Illyrian marker when it is 4700 years old at same place, and his descendants were there at time of Illyrians.

Ok, descendant mutation of age 2000 years are Illyrian but Serbs and Albanians will continue to be mixed in that subclades. They are male-line brothers, but Serbs come in the 7th century and E1b is not coming from anywhere. This means that carriers of E1b (Albanians) from 7th century until 20th century are assimilated by Serbians.

In which time is assimilation occurred, we will see in the future.


Proto-Illyrians entered in the Balkans 2000 BC from Anatalia

Prove with genetics, far as I know E1b types that exists in Albanians are in Albania 4700 years.
 
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But, to say all with this branch are specifically Croatian would be incorrect,

https://imghost.io/image/GFG5o

Subclade I-S17250 is one person in White Croatia, historical records confirm arrival of Croats from that area where this mutation occurred or originate.

Since no other nation(tribe) on the planet earth does not have link(historical data) with source of I-S17250 in south Poland and south west Ukraine they can not be anyone's except Croatian.

If it would not be so then same subclade I-S17250 is Rusian, Bulgarian, Croatian etc, etc. and that can not be true because subclade I-S17250 is a one man. If that man and his subclade sons (descendants) mentioned as White Croats then his descendants can not be Russians because that would mean that Croats from Balkan are Russian origin or Bulgarian or Albanian, etc...

The only possible way is around, that all are White Croatian origin (people with subclade I-S17250).

An example is also from a local Croatian area, people with subclade I-S17250 come to Croatia and wider area from same place (south Poland south west Ukraine) at same day, hour and minute.
The first are Slovenes, second are Croats, third are Serbs, fourth are Montenegrins, fifth are Macedonians, sixth are Dalmatians, seventh are Dukljans, eight are Pagans etc..

It is not possible because there are no record of these nations in White Croatia except Croatians.
 
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