E-V13 Frequencies and New Data

[kingdavid]

That infant from Roman time burial apparently ~100-60 B.C should be ultimately E-V13 from the Argead tomb and not E-V22, anyway his calls seems to be mixing between E-L618 and E-V22, i think Ancient Macedonians were still burying their dead there, they were not exterminated by Romans. How much we can assure that this sample atelast is E-M35 is up to discussion because all samples seem to be of low quality.

Macedonian royal tombs are like a mix between Mycanean and Thracian royal tombs. E-V13 should be expected and not a surprise, Edonians used to live there as well.

The three other males in B.C times resulted to be under R1b-L51 which stirred controversy because of very low quality of samples and potentially contamination. All in all, we are left in dark.

i saw that in twitter :

DEM3245 vergina

p.s
i have to admit r1b is not a surprise for alexander the great line
but that specific branch is not the more common r1b branches in the Balkan ( z2103, pf7562)
so it is unexpected finding

 

[Southpaw]

i saw that in twitter :

DEM3245 vergina

View attachment 18231

p.s
i have to admit r1b is not a surprise for alexander the great line
but that specific branch is not the more common r1b branches in the Balkan ( z2103, pf7562)
so it is unexpected finding

IDK at this stage, these kind of studies being posted like this makes me wonder why they do it, no way they can be so careless.

Yeah, R1b-Z2103 or the other one found in Mycenae is expected, but i think Macedonians should have had E-V13 as well, doesn't have to be the Argaed line, because everyone wants to be king everywhere nowadays, it could have been among the population as well, makes quite sense.

IDK, maybe some sort of R1b-L51 as well, we have one R1b-L51 in LBA Serbia, maybe the Urnfielders went down tagging along with E-V13. But, i am not sure. Speculative at this point.

But that E-M35, IMO if it is a real call, should be E-V13, and it should be part of Macedonian population buried during early Roman times. What is your opinion on this?

 

[Riverman]

As for now we found a couple of E-L618 in Mycenaean Greek context, but zero E-V13. My guess is therefore that E-L618 branches were definitely present in Greeks, presumably from later incomers from the Danube too, related to Cernavoda & Co, but no E-V13.

 

[Riverman]

An already formed Daco-Thracian community 2300 BC is too early IMO. Whether E-V13 appears in Usatavo is yet to be seen

No, its rather later. At that time E-V13 was on its own and growing so fast, with mutiple huge founder events in a row, especially around E-CTS5856 and E-BY3880, but also E-PH1246. Both CTS5856/BY3880 and PH1246 have a true "lift off" around 2.500-2.200 BC. This means there was something big going on around 2.500 BC, which implies a massive expansion of the founding clans (CTS5856 and PH1246). Before that there is a ~400 years gap with little going on for E-V13, basically just surviving. But after 2.500 BC, we deal with at least some sort of tribe for CTS5856/BY3880 and there were no foreigners integrated from there onwards which left a significant impression.

Also, the big unique and largely cremating cultures of the Upper Tisza, Transtisza and Transylvania being formed in that period (most notably Cotofeni and Nyirseg) and there is no sign of this E-V13 domited population having any other parallel developing other paternal lineages.

Therefore if the E-V13 population would have become "Thracianised" by another group of people with other patrilineages that late or even later, it would have happened with nearly zero newly established other haplogroups or actually zero.

While that might be possible, in some odd and truly exceptional way, it is no parsimonious solution the problem. The much more likely scenario is that the E-V13 population of around 2.400 BC was already Pre-Thracian/Proto-Thracian.

There is rarely if ever such a complete language transmission without any exchange of patrilineages. Especially in a people which later appear to have been strictly patriarchal, patrlinear and polygynous, like the Thracians.

Concerning Usatovo-Gorodsk: We already have E-L618 from this group and we can now see that steppe elements came to the Greeks which carried E-L618 branches as well. This fact and the close relationship of Tripolye-Cucuteni with Usatovo-Gorodsk, in which we found multiple E-L618 individuals as well, make this the most likely scenario for E-V13 - up to now.

 

[Riverman]

This theory seems to be constructed around based on Y-Full figures rather than solid evidence, no ?
proto-Thracian is a young group, and Dacian a late offshoot from that moving north not. Levinski has convingnly demonstrated that there is no continuity between so-called 'Thracian Hallastatt' in the Carpatho-Dniester region with historical Getae.
So even if E-V13 is is from Usatavo, then moved to the Carpathian basin (where it remained hidden for a couple of millenia), it would at best be 'pre-pre-proto-Thracian'. However, Im not aware of data to support this scenario, but I must confess I do not have a slam dunk alternative

Proto-Thracian is young because it split and branched off late (1.700-1.500 BC and 1.300-1.100 BC respectively).

But the cultural and genetic (yes, based on modern phlyogeny mostly, but this is solid) block existed far longer. The modern phylogeny shows those splits and branching events very clearly. Therefore we can assume that they formed around 2.500 BC, but lived in a largely unified group up until about 2.000-1.500 BC, when the first splits took place.

The North Thracians lived together far longer, at least up to about 1.300 BC.

But all of this might be cleared up once we get the ancient DNA samples from Transylvania (two research groups, one worked on Bronze Age groups, the other on Scythian and La Tene era ones).

 

[Southpaw]

I wouldn't say that R1b and R1a are IE. PIE refers to the final common population groups before their dispersal from the steppe. Therefore PIE lineages are only R1b-M269, R1a-M17, I2a2-L699, possibly a couple of j2-whatever. If E-V13 is indeed form Usatavo (I doubt it), then it would technically be PIE too

IDK if i follow your whole sentence, maybe it is a good idea to use connectors between sentences. Like R1b and R1a are not IE, then they are PIE lineages, then you jump to arguing whether E-V13 is indeed from Usatovo (something which i didn't claim to begin with), as if you were in this debate for a long time. May we know whom we are talking to?!

 

[Riverman]

you have noted the distinction between 'Getan" sites in Iron Age Romania (e.g. Torok et al) and 'Thracians' from IA Bulgaria ? The former look very steppe shifted/ Scythianoid

The problem here too is, that we don't have actual early Geto-Dacian samples from Basarabi or even Babadag proper. The Thracian Hallstatt samples we got from around Odessa, regardless of what exactly they were ethnolinguistically, being most definitely mixed and not coming from a the main E-V13 population of its time. They represent a branch of Daco-Thracians, that much can be said.

This is particularly annoying, since we could get both from Babadag proper and especially Basarabi samples, since they used on some sites various types of inhumation burials or at least didn't cremate all their dead, like most North Thracian cultures did.

 

[Southpaw]

you have noted the distinction between 'Getan" sites in Iron Age Romania and 'Thracians' from IA Bulgaria ? The latter look very steppe shifted

The reply was to you, in my screen I see your original reply in a quote box
Perhaps my sentence could have been clearer, but I was pointing out that a generic reference to 'R1a' and 'R1b' needs to be modified. Most R1a and R1b lineages do not have much, if anything, to do with PIE. It is only R1b-M269 and R1a-M17 that are associated with IE expansion.
Other lineages which were part of the PIE pool include J2b2-L283 and I2a2-L699
And yes ive been following the debate for a long time, 2000 AD to be precise. Yourself ?

When i say R1b and R1a, i have in mind all related lineages, R1b-M269 and R1a-M17, i don't really think J2b2-L283 is part of the PIE, it is a CHG lineage and was not present in widespread PIE languages, very concentric spread within a single specific group.

Anyways, it is crystal clear to me who am i talking now.

 

[Fshatar]

E-V13* is a Neolithic haplogroup from the Balkans, and it definitely didn’t originate in Usatovo, come on, that’s obvious. V13 was probably assimilated by different waves of Yamnaya in the Balkans and then spread by their descendants among various Paleo-Balkan groups like the Illyrians, Paeonians, and Thracians.

As for what's considered typical or not: E1b isn’t your standard Anatolian Neolithic Farmer lineage. It actually comes from an African origin through North Africa and Natufian populations, and was later absorbed by the original Anatolian farmers, who were mostly G2a, H2, and C1a-V20.

 

[Riverman]

E-V13* is a Neolithic haplogroup from the Balkans, and it definitely didn’t originate in Usatovo, come on, that’s obvious. V13 was probably assimilated by different waves of Yamnaya in the Balkans and then spread by their descendants among various Paleo-Balkan groups like the Illyrians, Paeonians, and Thracians.

As for what's considered typical or not: E1b isn’t your standard Anatolian Neolithic Farmer lineage. It actually comes from an African origin through North Africa and Natufian populations, and was later absorbed by the original Anatolian farmers, who were mostly G2a, H2, and C1a-V20.

The most likely path is Natufian -> Impresso-Cardial -> Tripolye-Cucuteni/Petresti -> Usatovo-Gorodsk -> Cotofeni/Cotofeni-Vucedol -> Nyirseg/Glina-Schneckenburg/local Transylvanian groups -> Wietenberg/Verbicoara/Eastern Otomani -> Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna/Suciu de Sus/Igrita/Transtisza groups -> Gáva-related Channelled Ware of the Carpatho-Balkans.

Considering E-M35 in general, we still don't have pre-Natufian samples proving its origin in Africa or the Near East. What we know is that haplogroup J spread fairly late in the Near East.

Usatovo-Gorodsk is the most Copper Age/Neolithic influenced of all steppe groups and got a huge chunk of its ancestry and heritage from Tripolye-Cucuteni. And we already have TCC samples and Usatovo-Gorodsk samples with E-L618, which is kind of more factual than "Neolithic Balkan", which means nothing for the Copper Age to Early Bronze Age transition.

 

[Johane Derite]

The most likely path is Natufian -> Impresso-Cardial -> Tripolye-Cucuteni/Petresti -> Usatovo-Gorodsk -> Cotofeni/Cotofeni-Vucedol -> Nyirseg/Glina-Schneckenburg/local Transylvanian groups -> Wietenberg/Verbicoara/Eastern Otomani -> Zimnicea-Plovdiv-Cerkovna/Suciu de Sus/Igrita/Transtisza groups -> Gáva-related Channelled Ware of the Carpatho-Balkans.

Considering E-M35 in general, we still don't have pre-Natufian samples proving its origin in Africa or the Near East. What we know is that haplogroup J spread fairly late in the Near East.

Usatovo-Gorodsk is the most Copper Age/Neolithic influenced of all steppe groups and got a huge chunk of its ancestry and heritage from Tripolye-Cucuteni. And we already have TCC samples and Usatovo-Gorodsk samples with E-L618, which is kind of more factual than "Neolithic Balkan", which means nothing for the Copper Age to Early Bronze Age transition.

The peasant (what fshatar means in Albanian) is correct on one thing though, there is nothing typical or standard about E-V13, it is extraordinary through and through.

The tmrca expansion pattern it has shows that multiple different assimilation events don't account for its spread.

 

[Fshatar]

You can find E-L618 in Neolithic Zemunica, Croatia, within the Lengyel culture, as well as in Chalcolithic Bulgaria and Bronze Age Greece. Let’s be honest, the Neolithic hub wasn’t the Pontic Steppe; it was the Balkans. I think the earliest E-V13* samples might show up during the Chalcolithic period in eastern Bosnia and Serbia. A significant portion of it was probably absorbed by Yamnaya>Vučedol and then spread throughout the Bronze Age Balkans. This also makes perfect sense when you look at the pattern of West-Central Balkan vs. East Balkan V13 clades. In Albanians it's mostly West-Central Balkan clades.

 

[Southpaw]

The peasant (what fshatar means in Albanian) is correct on one thing though, there is nothing typical or standard about E-V13, it is extraordinary through and through.

The tmrca expansion pattern it has shows that multiple different assimilation events don't account for its spread.

Speaking of Natufians, he goes into deep water there, it is a remarkable first of its kind proto-culture, heavily influencing the actual latter neolithic agricultural revolution, eventually mainly influencing the invention of human civilizations. Laying ground, it is enough to google Natufians they will break the record for "world's first" this, "world's first" that (evidence of bread-making, beer-making, dog domestication, proto-agriculture, architectural pioneering and communal structure, complex burial system etc, etc).

There is a reason why the Mushabian Culture E-M35 males coming from Egypt were so successful, Egypt had the world's first flint mining, and eventually they invented microlith-microburin technology, which was like a swiss knife for flint tools.

 

[Johane Derite]

Speaking of Natufians, he goes into deep water there, it is a remarkable first of its kind proto-culture, heavily influencing the actual latter neolithic agricultural revolution, eventually mainly influencing the invention of human civilizations. Laying ground, it is enough to google Natufians they will break the record for "world's first" this, "world's first" that (evidence of bread-making, beer-making, dog domestication, proto-agriculture, architectural pioneering and communal structure, complex burial system etc, etc).

An extraordinary innovative and energetic people.

One of the funniest schemes by Peasant and his affiliated group is their lumping together of west balkan and central balkan into one unit of "west-central" balkan as if this magically makes the central balkans a part of the west balkan cultures, when we know archaeologically and ethnically they werent.

It's an implicit admission from them that the central balkans poses some big problems for them when it comes to the Albanoid origin question.

You can see this "west-central" balkan scheme show up all over the illyrian or albanian related wiki pages, it is a testament to their pathetic desparation and damage control.


It reminds me of a saying:

"Ashtu si një qen kthehet në të vjellat e tij, ashtu budallenjtë përsërisin marrëzinë e tyre.

— Fjalët e urta 26:11"

 

[Southpaw]

An extraordinary innovative and energetic people.

One of the funniest schemes by Peasant and his affiliated group is their lumping together of west balkan and central balkan into one unit of "west-central" balkan as if this magically makes the central balkans a part of the west balkan cultures, when we know archaeologically and ethnically they werent.

It's an implicit admission from them that the central balkans poses some big problems for them when it comes to the Albanoid origin question.

You can see this "west-central" balkan scheme show up all over the illyrian or albanian related wiki pages, it is a testament to their pathetic desparation and damage control.


It reminds me of a saying:

"Ashtu si një qen kthehet në të vjellat e tij, ashtu budallenjtë përsërisin marrëzinë e tyre.

— Fjalët e urta 26:11"

From what i understood, we will have more E-L618 samples from Varna Necropolis (but quite abundantly in Chalcolithic Ukraine). They were not farmers, but gold-smithers. Remarkable considering this is the world's first processing of gold.

 

[Riverman]

You can find E-L618 in Neolithic Zemunica, Croatia, within the Lengyel culture, as well as in Chalcolithic Bulgaria and Bronze Age Greece. Let’s be honest, the Neolithic hub wasn’t the Pontic Steppe; it was the Balkans. I think the earliest E-V13* samples might show up during the Chalcolithic period in eastern Bosnia and Serbia. A significant portion of it was probably absorbed by Yamnaya>Vučedol and then spread throughout the Bronze Age Balkans. This also makes perfect sense when you look at the pattern of West-Central Balkan vs. East Balkan V13 clades. In Albanians it's mostly West-Central Balkan clades.

The Zemunica cave sample is an early Neolithic one, which seems to be a dead end in Europe and a close match in modern Iraqi. It shows that the Impresso-Cardial people (to which this site belongs) moved along the sea and river ways.

However, already in the Middle Neolithic to Late Neolithic, we find most samples of E-L618 along the Danube and close-by river systems (Michelsberg, Lengyel, Tiszapolgar-Bodrogkeresztur, Varna and Tripolye-Cucuteni).

In Varna (Chalcolithic Bulgaria), the E-L618 are rather outliers and might very well be associated with more Northerly groups related to TCC.

As for the earliest E-V13 samples - doesn't matter, what matters is the modern branch, not the dead end ones. And the modern one is from the Late Copper Age and must have been Indoeuroepan by 2.500 BC the latest.

Cotofeni and Vucedol are groups which have this early steppe-related ancestry we see also in Usatovo-Gorodsk, with a high level of Copper Age pre-steppe ancestry (EEF).

Also, the distinction in the E-V13 phylogeny is rather North Balkans/Carpatho-Danubian (North Thracian) vs. South East Balkan (South Thracian). Albanians have primarily North Thracian lineages, which points to a fairly late entry point and spread in the Southern Balkans (Albania and Greece), which is in accordance with the TMRCA's as well.

That doesn't mean that some North Thracian branches couldn't have been in say Bosnia too, in Serbia they surely were, especially Z5017, but their centre of gravity and the main population wasn't there.

 

[Fshatar]

You can't label the entire haplogroup E-V13 as "Thracian." Your classification of V13 clades is highly subjective and not really based in reality. G-L497 is a good analogy to E-V13, it's a Central European farmer lineage that expanded with the Bell Beaker culture. You can't just call it Celtic or Italic. Similarly, V13 was Indo-Europeanized by Balkan Yamnaya, which is why its clades come from a range of different Paleo-Balkan origins including Illyrians and Paeonians.

 

[Riverman]

You can't label the entire haplogroup E-V13 as "Thracian." Your classification of V13 clades is highly subjective and not really based in reality. G-L497 is a good analogy to E-V13, it's a Central European farmer lineage that expanded with the Bell Beaker culture. You can't just call it Celtic or Italic. Similarly, V13 was Indo-Europeanized by Balkan Yamnaya, which is why its clades come from a range of different Paleo-Balkan origins including Illyrians and Paeonians.

E-V13 was primarily found in the Early Iron in Thracian-related cultures and it has a phylogeny which shows a very, very specific pattern of expansions, which being not mirrored on any significant level by other haplogroups. Therefore we can conclude with near certainty that all the main E-V13 branches lived together in one population and this population was Proto-Thracian into Daco-Thracian. Everything else were splits from the main. Also, such a high level of growth like for E-V13 in specific time periods can only be explained by ethnic diffusion.

The only viable comparisons are with J-L283 (Illyrian) and I-M253 (together with R-U106 the main Proto-Germanic haplogroup).

 

[Southpaw]

During Hallstatt C period, on the territories
of Kosovo, Southern Serbia and Northern Mac-
edonia, stamped pottery decorated by using a
specic tool26 or a wheel appears,27 and is usually
named Belaćevac I horizon.28 e development
of this material group during the period from the
7th to the 5th century BC is similar to the horizon
of the stamped pottery from the previous phase,
and it is called Belaćevac II horizon, i.e. the
younger horizon of this cultural manifestation.29
In addition to indigenous pottery, pottery made


on potters’ wheel appears in this phase, coming
from the southern regions. Inuence of the Greek
culture can be noticed at the strongholds Hisar,
Cernica, and Belaćevac starting from the 6th cen-
tury BC.30 In contrast with the previous phase, the
territory previously occupied by the Belaćevac II
group seems to shrink, including only Kosovo
without the Metohija region. is group spreads
eastward toward the Južna Morava River valley.
Its material culture was usually recognized as be-
longing to the Paleo-Balkan Dardani tribe (Plin.
Nat. 3.29), which, in this case, controlled the two
main Central Balkan routes through the Kosovo
and Metohija territories.


During the period from the 7th to the 5th cen-
tury BC, the extensive so-called Glasinac-Mati
cultural complex extended from the Adriat-
ic Sea in the west to the Morava and Ibar Riv-
er valleys to the east, from the Sava River in the
north to the Mati River in the Northern Alba-
nia in the south.31 It originated from the Bronze
Age Glasinac culture of the Glasinac plateau in
eastern Bosnia. Pottery from the region between
Glasinac the plateau and Mati River valley shows
exceptional level of similarity in the period from
the 7th to the 5th century BC.32 B. Čović has con-
sidered the Autariatae (Ps.-Scyl. 24) to be the
tribe linked with the archaeological material of
the Glasinac-Mati complex and has noticed that
this cultural material was used by several Illyri-
an tribes with a common origin and similar re-
ligious, cultural, and language patterns, such as
the Ardiaei (Strab. 7.5.), Docleatae (App. Ill. 47),
Illyrii proprie dicti (Plin. Nat. 3.144), Labeatae
(Liv. 44.23.3) and others.3

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366267982_Some_Observations_on_Communications_and_Contacts_in_the_Central_Balkan_and_Neighbouring_Regions_During_the_7th_to_5th_Century_BC_Based_on_the_Distribution_of_Weapons

A disclaimer on usage of territories by nationalistic nomenclature, personally i would be satisfied when we bring back Dardania. But, the archaeological insights are always welcome. A bit of dynamics of Central Balkans groups.

I want to add that stamped and fluted/channeled decorations are a very interesting phenomena, this two ways technique has its roots in Bronze Age Southern Carpathians among groups like Tei, Verbicoara and similar cultures. I bet my money around that triangle Stamped and Fluted groups split from a common ancestor and spread/expanded in all directions. Otherwise the disrepancies between radiocarbon dated sites cannot be explained from one extreme of South (Eastern Rhodopes - Gluhite Kamani) to another extreme of north (Dniester region in Ukraine Saharna Solonceni). That region of Southern Carpathians has burials to which they call archaeologically unable to be tested or verified, due to very peculiar burials.

 

[Valerius]

Saw the discussion about how the Thracians might have looked like. I made SOME of these via AI, just to put some color ontop of some Dacian statues without changing them. There are 3-4 made by some Romanian guy Colorostariu and 1 from an unknown author.