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Corded Ware Culture admixture against Yamnayans

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]F999942[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE509[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.24[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 29.56 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.03 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.4[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]


Dodecad K12b

North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]65.23[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 27.43 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 1.84 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]M828784[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE511[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.76[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 28.13 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.56[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.18 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.64[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.72[/TD]

Dodecad K12b
North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]66.75[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 26.55 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.53[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 0.74 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.54[/TD]
 
Goga said:
[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]F999942[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE509[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro
Baloch

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.24[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 29.56 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.03 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.4[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]


Dodecad K12b

North_European
Gedrosia

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]65.23[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 27.43 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 1.84 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]M828784[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE511[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro
Baloch

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.76[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 28.13 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.56[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.18 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.64[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.72[/TD]

Dodecad K12b
North_European
Gedrosia

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]66.75[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 26.55 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.53[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 0.74 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.54[/TD]
Click to expand...
Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.
 
[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]M690970[/TD]
[TD]Sintashta-RISE386[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]57.8[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 19.92 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 18.5 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.01 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.56[/TD]


Dodecad K12b

North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]53.75[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 26.36 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 16.61 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 1.86 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.9[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.42[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Northwest_African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.09[/TD]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]M277797[/TD]
[TD]Sintashta-RISE395[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]58.44[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 23.06 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 17.64 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.82[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.03[/TD]

Dodecad K12b

North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="width: 50, align: right"]54.97[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 29.58 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 14.62 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.66[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 0.17 [/TD]


Where all that Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is from if it is NOT from R1a???


Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This indicates that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean arrived in the Steppes after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.
 
LeBrok said:
Baloch is very ancient admixture and is not indicator of Steppe and Iran mixing in pre Neolithic times. Baloch is Central Asian paleolithic/Ice Age admixture. Baloch is present in Kostenki and Mal'ta, but not Caucasus. Samara has 0 Caucasian but is rich in Baloch. It is impossible for Iranian Neolithic or CHG to come to Steppe and leave no Caucasian but only Baloch. However, later Afansievo should have Baloch and Caucasian from Iranian Neolithic.
Click to expand...
So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.


Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.


Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med


Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived very late and much later after Gedrosia/Baloch. Gedrosia/Baloch in both Afanasievo and Sintashta has to be from R1a, nothing more, nothing less...
 
Goga said:
[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]F999942[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE509[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.24[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 29.56 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.03 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Beringian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.45[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.4[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.44[/TD]


Dodecad K12b

North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]65.23[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 27.43 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]5.12[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 1.84 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.2[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.08[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]7[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.06[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]8[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.04[/TD]


[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]M828784[/TD]
[TD]Afanasievo-RISE511[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

HarappaWorld

NE-Euro

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]63.76[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 28.13 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]American[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]3.56[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 2.18 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]1.64[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]W-African[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.72[/TD]

Dodecad K12b
North_European

[TD="align: center"]1[/TD]

[TD="align: right"]66.75[/TD]

[TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 26.55 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]3[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.89[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]4[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]2.53[/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]5[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"] 0.74 [/TD]

[TD="width: 30, align: center"]6[/TD]
[TD="width: 120"]Sub_Saharan[/TD]
[TD="width: 50, align: right"]0.54[/TD]
Click to expand...

If they're going East I would expect CHG.

The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.
 
holderlin said:
If they're going East I would expect CHG.

The thing is Kotias shows up everywhere on the steppe, but Iran Neolithic does not. It's hard to make sense of everything with some comparisons.
Click to expand...
CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?
 
Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.
 
Goga said:
CHG is not from the 'East'. CHG is from the Caucasus. Eastern Steppes (Afanasievo area) are more 'Eastern' than CHG/Caucasus.

Neolithic Iranian folks were not exactly the same as CHG. Neolithic Iranians were more shifted toward the South Asia, while CHG from Caucasus was slightly more Northern. The connection between those 2 has to be ANE, though.

It is even possible that R* or R2*/R1* is actually from the Northern India. Iranian Neolithic was mostly Gedrosia/Baloch, but who is saying that Gedrosia/Baloch is native to Iran? Maybe that Iranian Neolithic farmer of Zagros Mountains (Western parts of the Iranian Plateau) was actually an immigrant from SouthCentral Asia/Northern India?
Click to expand...

I think there was Iran Neolithic gene flow from the East around the Caspian, but more importantly there was no EEF. That is all I mean.

How MA-1 relates to CHG and Iran Neolithic would help explain much. This is sort of what I was getting at a while back when I said that "Teal" appeared to predate any contact with the Caucuses, but we see Karelia in Iran Hotu and absolutely not a shred of "Teal" in Karelia. There's no denying that there was gene flow from Iran to the Steppe as early as the Mesolithic BUT. We also see Kotias in Samara HG and not in Karelia. Part of me does wonder if the "Teal" showing up in some comparisons has been on the steppe since MA-1.
 
Angela said:
Samara indeed has "Caucasian" in some formal stats analyses.
Click to expand...

Yep, and Hotu has some "steppe" in some stats, but in others it looks different.

The thing about admixture is that you get a broader picture, which is more useful in some models we're all trying to fit. Going off that the "Teal" disappears in some of the cultures following or contemporary with Yamnaya.

I don't know. What I do know is that Tocharian, Celto-Italic, and Anatolian HAD to have left PIE before Indic.

Goddamit
 
Last edited:
The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.
 
Goga said:
So if Gedrosia/Baloch in the Steppes is not from R1a, where is it from then? What I'm trying to say is that Gedrosia/Baloch is an integral (important) part of R1a AND R1b. Even Mal'ta R* fella was full of Gedrosia/Baloch. So Gedrosia/Baloch has to be connected to R1a & R1b.
Click to expand...
What haplogroup was Kostenki?
[TABLE="width: 170"]
[TR]
[TD]Kostenki[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]13.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]12.49[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]29.02[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]4.28[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]1.75[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]5.16[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]3.32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]1.43[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]18.76[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]5.89[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]1.24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]1.82[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]0.92[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.73[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Afanasievo is older than Sintashta, Afanasievo has no Med, while Sintashta has lots of it. This is a great indication that there was a migration from Europe into the Steppes AFTER the Indo-Europization process of the Steppes. That means that Atlantic_Med / Mediterranean in the Steppes arrived much later after the collonizations of Neolithic Iranian folks.
Click to expand...
Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.
[TABLE="width: 382"]
[TR]
[TD]Corded Estonia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sintashta[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]14.27[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]17.64[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]59.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]58.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]25.26[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]23.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.82[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

From_Corded_Ware_to_Sintashta.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

Afanasievo: 3300 to 2500 BC = 0%-1.89% Mediterranean / 2.53%-5.12% Atlantic_Med
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC = 19.92%- 23.06% Mediterranean / 26.36%-29.58% Atlantic_Med
Click to expand...
Afansievo is more like Yamnaya
[TABLE="width: 419"]
[TR]
[TD]Afansievo Rise511[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Poltavka, mid Yamnaya[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]28.13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]30.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]2.18[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]7.57[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]63.76[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]59.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]1.64[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0.99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]3.56[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]2.21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.72[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

IE-migrations.gif
 
Alan said:
The studies show all Yamnaya at around 50/50 EHG/CHG. Many amateur calculators too. The lowest estimates of CHG I have seen were around ~38%. 20% is not even half of it. Any calculator that calculates 80% EHG for Yamnaya. Is extremely broken and uses rather modern populations as refference. the 20% "CHG" look actually more like the modern Caucasus component you get in the higher Ks and which is based on modern pops. K14/15 is splitten too far down to components. For Yamnaya K4-K10 make sense. More components are uneccessary.
Click to expand...

[TABLE="width: 865"]
[TR]
[TD]CHG, Satsurblia georgia 13kya[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Samara HG[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Poltavka, mid Yamnaya[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]0.62[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]6.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]36.63[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]14.33[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]30.06[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]62.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]54.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]7.57[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]24.97[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]3.84[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]75.62[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]59.14[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]0.59[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0.77[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0.99[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]9.62[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]2.21[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]0.15[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]3.88[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]0.25[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]3.01[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]1.78[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Why there is so little Caucasian admixture in Yamnaya, if half of CHG genome should be in it? By Harappa admixtures Yamnaya could be modeled as 75% Samara HG - 25% Iranian Neolithic.
 
Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

[TABLE="width: 419"]
[TR]
[TD]Mal'ta[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]10.13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]6.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]24.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]62.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]24.97[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]40.14[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]17.71[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]6.74[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]3.88[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]0.19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]1.78[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Sintashta looks like pure CW Estonian, Andronovo is later and shows some mixing with locals. Less Med, and more Baloch, American, Beringian and Siberian.
[TABLE="width: 603"]
[TR]
[TD]Corded Estonia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Sintashta[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Andronovo[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]0.54[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]14.27[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]17.64[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]21.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]2.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]59.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]58.44[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]56.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]1.93[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]1.05[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]1.22[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]25.26[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]23.06[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]14.37[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]0.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.82[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]0.81
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
holderlin said:
They're both very unadulterated in comparison to other IE languages. I've heard many explanations as to why Lithuanian is so conservative, and they all seem like reaches to me. Just like Indo-Iranian is closer to Indic than Iranian, Balto-Slavic is more Baltic than Slavic. In other words Slavic is just a more bastardized version of Baltic, IMHO. And actually Rivers that have Baltic names encompass nearly the entire region of CW, which is not a coincidence.
Click to expand...

A more reasonable conclusion would be that Lithuanian resembles more closely the Balto-Slavic root than do the Slavic languages.

I would only disagree that Sanskrit is more conservative on the simple grounds that there are many words in Lithuanian that are the exact same word as the reconstructed PIE. This is probably overlooked in a more technical analysis, but it's hard to ignore. "Horse" for example if I had to recall one is the same in PIE as Lithuanian. This is amazing to me.
Click to expand...

Lithuanian 'arklys' ('horse') doesn't derive from PIE '*hek'wos'. There's Lithuanian 'ašva ' ('mare'), but it's not exactly the same.

Even more impressive is not only how far apart they are in distance, but how late Lithuanian was even written down that it would present as so conservative.
Click to expand...


In many ways Lithuanian isn't very conservative at all, however. Just look at, for example, the verbal morphology and compare it with ancient Greek or Sanskrit.
 
Last edited:
LeBrok said:
Mal'ta was R* and had some Baloch at 24% but overall he was NE-Euro at 40% and 20% American, and missing totally Caucasian admixture. Iranian Neolithic, on other hand was almost made of two sources, Baloch and Caucasian. There was not even a smidge of NE-Euro or American in Iranian Neolithic, to suggest any ancestry coming from people like Mal'ta boy. Both were related through Baloch and S-Indian common ancestor in the far far past, but otherwise quite different people. It is unlikely but still possible that Baloch could have been a source of R or P, but definitely not R1a or R1b.

[TABLE="width: 419"]
[TR]
[TD]Mal'ta[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Iranian Neolithic 10,000 years[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]10.13[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]6.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]24.09[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]62.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]24.97[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]40.14[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.7[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]17.71[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]6.74[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]3.88[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]0.3[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]0.19[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]1.78[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
Mal'ta was R*. But he was not really ancestral to R1* or R2*. Mal'ta was obviously 'mixed'. We can even call Ma'ta R3* or something. He belonged to a different subtype of R*, than ancestors of R2* & R1*. R1* (and therefore R1a* & R1b*) evolved from a different source and different subtype of R* than Mal'ta...
 
holderlin said:
Evidence? There is mixing all over the place at the CT/Steppe interface. How bout Sredny Stog and Bug Dniester? And I don't think we got the samples we would need to really investigate this. I know the graves are a complete mixed bag physically with Steppe and Mediterranean types. I think we only got sample from the Yamnaya horizon above Dnieper Donets, which actually gave some indication of this process with an I2
Click to expand...

Ok I understand that I was confuses. You was explaining a western expansion of Yamnayans... in the steppe itself. Yamna spreads all the Pontic and Caspian steppe so from my point of view western was west of tge Carpathians.

By the way it's that Yanmayists have not found a name for the steppe culture after Khavalinsk and before Yamna? ( Or it's that there was nothing there to name? :)
 
LeBrok said:
Sintashta really looks like a migration directly from Europe, like Corded Ware from Estonia. Or perhaps both migrated from North Yamnaya, one went West, the other East? Though this high Mediterranean points to European Neolithic Farmer or WHG. So most likely Sintashta came from Estonia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
Click to expand...
I'm not sure where Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes is from, but it is still possible that Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes arrived at the same time when it arrive in the Baltic region. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med auDNA is not really that old in the Balitc region. But I don't think that there was a migration from NorthEastern Europe into Central Asia, since there are no 'European' Y-DNA haplogroups in Central Asia. There is no I1, I2a, R1a-Z282 etc. in Central Asia. Mediterranean / Atlantic_Med in the Steppes has to be from a different source. Maybe a second invasion (wave) of LATE Yamnaya folks into Central Asia thousand years later???

There was actually a miration from Central Asia into the Baltics, since they found some ancient Y-DNA hg. J1 in Karelia...
 
Btw, EAST Iranic BMAC culture is OLDER than Sintashta

BMAC : 2300 to 1700 BC
Sintashta : 2100 to 1800 BC
Andronovo : 2000 to 900

EAST Iranian BMAC culture can't be from Sintashta. It is even chronologically impossible that BMAC is from Sintashta/Andronovo. Even BEFORE Sintashta there was already a split between WEST and EAST Iranians. Ancient Iranians (proto-Medes) from Western Parts of the Iranian Plateau migrated into South Central Asia and evolved into the East Iranian who became known as BMAC folks.
 
After the Neolithic there seems to be a flow from Anatolia and Caucasus or a region close to it to Iran, not from the steppes.



[TD="align: left"] Population [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Loschbour:Loschbour [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Barcin_Neolithic:I0707 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Esperstedt_MN:I0172 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Karelia_HG [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Kotias:KK1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Nganasan [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Mozabite [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Iran_Neolithic:I1290 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Israel_Natufian:I0861 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Paniya [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Dai [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Distance [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Neolithic:WC1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 97,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 2 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,7 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,005367 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Neolithic:I1945 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 2,8 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 92,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 5,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,011044 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Neolithic:I1290 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 100 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Late_Neolithic:I1671 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,9 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 15,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 75,8 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 7,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,9 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,005985 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Hotu:I1293 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 13,4 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 84,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 2,5 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,011722 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Chalcolithic:I1674 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 12,7 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 27,2 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 39,9 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 20,2 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,006394 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Chalcolithic:I1670 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 16,2 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 28,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 39,4 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 15 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,006489 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Chalcolithic:I1665 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,6 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 43,2 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 24,9 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 31,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,009529 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Chalcolithic:I1662 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 19,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 19,3 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 49 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 12,4 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,007656 [/TD]

[TD="align: left"] Iran_Chalcolithic:I1661 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 24,7 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 16,1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 56,7 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 2,5 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0,006435 [/TD]
So, if the IE languages weren't already there in the Neolithic*, they could have been brought there by a group of people who had Barcin, Kotias admixture. Even Natufian increases.

*Most would say they weren't but I am mentioning it in order to be 100% clear.
 
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