Connection between autosomal results and Y-DNA

[BakodiP]

I've tested Family Finder just a couple of months ago, since then I've tried all of the free admixture calculators avaliable. Both Eurogenes, Dodecad, MDLP and HarappaWorld Oracle results primarly put me as a Hungarian or other Cenetral European population (Serbian, Austrian etc.). The two population mode however shows results like 80-85% Central European (Hungarian, Slovenian etc.) and 18-10% Italian, Greek, or 90% CEU and 10-7% Sephardi Jewish, Lebanese, Druze, Arab etc. I got in touch with Mr. McDonald as well, he ran his test on my data. He came up with primarly Hungarian, but a considerable percent of my DNA shows Middle Eastern patterns.


My Y-DNA haplogroup is J2b* (M205-, M241-) which is thought to be a Middle Eastern haplogroup. Altough Mr. McDonald's map analysis puts my Mideast admixture to Albania/Greece where J2b peaks, but as far as I know exclusively J2b2 and J2b1. (He also told me that a Greek or Albanian line could be true for me, but I should also keep in mind Jews of Thessaloniki and Malta.)



Could it be, that my Y-DNA haplogroup so my direct paternal line is responsible for this Middle Eastern admixture or is it just whishful thinking and Y-DNA has absolutly nothing to do with these results?

 

[Eldritch]

If yours is J2b2 then it's likey it's of Macedonian/Albanian origin, Greeks are mostly J2a.

 

[adamo]

The 20% J2 in Greece is like 7% j2b 3% J-M67, 5% J-M410 etc. it gets filled up quickly.

 

[BakodiP]

Anybody about the connection between the mideast admixture and Y-DNA haplogroup (especially in my case)?

 

[adamo]

Yeah. J2b is associated with Neolithic Greece in the southern Balkans (8,500-4,300 B.C.) it represents 14-15% of Albanian lineages, 10% of north-central italian lineages, 9% of lineages in Thessaly and 7% of Macedonian lineages.

 

[adamo]

The age of U5 is estimated at 30-50,000 years. Approximately 11% of total Europeans and 10% of European-Americans are in haplogroup U5.
U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Sweden, France and Spain. Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe around 10.000 years ago.
Haplogroup U5 is found also in small frequencies and at much lower diversity in the Near East and parts of northern Africa (areas with sizable U6 concentrations), suggesting back-migration of people from Europe to the south.

 

[adamo]

That being said, U5b seems to peak among basque and northern Spanish populations. The basques have the worlds highest density of U5b subclade (10%) along with central Navarre province (16%).

 

[Alexandros]

@Eldrictch
Mainland Greeks are not primarily J2a, they are primarily J2b. Only Cretans and Greek Cypriots are primarily J2a.

 

[Alexandros]

@BakodiP
Please do not rely on the default Population Finder calculator of FTDNA. It is totally flawed for Eastern Europeans and probably for central Europeans as well. I know that for North-Western Europeans it is working much better. I can use myself as an example. FTDNA labels me as 100% middle eastern, while all the calculators at GEDmatch indicate something like 27% west European ancestry, 27% east Mediterranean and about 19% Near Eastern, with the rest being Caucasian admixture. For another Cypriot friend with almost identical GEDmatch results to mine, FTDNA denotes 66% middle eastern and 33% European! Going back to your case.. is it so rare to have some middle eastern ancestry among Hungarians? What is the average for the Hungarian population in the Dodecad and/or Eurogenes projects? Please also note that many European populations have at least moderate amounts of middle/near eastern admixture due to the neolithic farmer migrations and other more recent migrations (i.e Jews) and invasions (Ottomans, Arabs).

 

[BakodiP]

@BakodiP
Please do not rely on the default Population Finder calculator of FTDNA. It is totally flawed for Eastern Europeans and probably for central Europeans as well. I know that for North-Western Europeans it is working much better. I can use myself as an example. FTDNA labels me as 100% middle eastern, while all the calculators at GEDmatch indicate something like 27% west European ancestry, 27% east Mediterranean and about 19% Near Eastern, with the rest being Caucasian admixture. For another Cypriot friend with almost identical GEDmatch results to mine, FTDNA denotes 66% middle eastern and 33% European! Going back to your case.. is it so rare to have some middle eastern ancestry among Hungarians? What is the average for the Hungarian population in the Dodecad and/or Eurogenes projects? Please also note that many European populations have at least moderate amounts of middle/near eastern admixture due to the neolithic farmer migrations and other more recent migrations (i.e Jews) and invasions (Ottomans, Arabs).

As you'll see my population averages are almost the same comparing to the Hungarian average. I have a bit more Atlantic-Med and Southwest Asian in Dodecad, and East Med in Eurogenes. But the Oracle results, my McDonald result and my Y-DNA halpogroup still suggest that I have some roots from the Mediterranean or Levant.

Dodecad K12b

[TABLE="width: 388"]
[TR]
[TD]Population [/TD]
[TD]Hungarian[/TD]
[TD]My result[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gedrosia[/TD]
[TD]4,10%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4,23%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,13%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0,70%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,62%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,92%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northwest_African[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic_Med[/TD]
[TD]27%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29,34%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2,34%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_European[/TD]
[TD]48,40%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42,21%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-6,19%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0,30%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,70%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,40%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_African[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southwest_Asian[/TD]
[TD]3%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4,83%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1,83%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0,30%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,15%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]-0,15%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasus[/TD]
[TD]16,20%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16,91%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,71%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub_Saharan [/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0,00%
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Mixed-mode population sharing (majority Hungarian minority various population results)
8 77.5% Hungarians (Behar) + 22.5% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.09
12 80.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 19.4% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 2.21
13 79.6% Hungarians (Behar) + 20.4% North_Italian (HGDP) @ 2.22
15 81.3% Hungarians (Behar) + 18.7% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.41
16 78.7% Hungarians (Behar) + 21.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 2.48


Eurogenes EUtest V2

[TABLE="width: 449"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD]Hungarian[/TD]
[TD]My results[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]North_Sea[/TD]
[TD]24,08%[/TD]
[TD]20,69%[/TD]
[TD]-3,39%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Atlantic[/TD]
[TD]17,29%[/TD]
[TD]19,22%[/TD]
[TD]1,93%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baltic[/TD]
[TD]20,04%[/TD]
[TD]18,02%[/TD]
[TD]-2,02%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Eastern_Euro[/TD]
[TD]12,73%[/TD]
[TD]12,32%[/TD]
[TD]-0,41%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Med[/TD]
[TD]9,49%[/TD]
[TD]10,87%[/TD]
[TD]1,38%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]West_Asian[/TD]
[TD]5,87%[/TD]
[TD]4,52%[/TD]
[TD]-1,35%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]East_Med[/TD]
[TD]7,04%[/TD]
[TD]11,38%[/TD]
[TD]4,34%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Red_Sea[/TD]
[TD]1,23%[/TD]
[TD]1,19%[/TD]
[TD]-0,04%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]South_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0,72%[/TD]
[TD]0,46%[/TD]
[TD]-0,26%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Southeast_Asian[/TD]
[TD]0,13%[/TD]
[TD]0,00%[/TD]
[TD]-0,13%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]0,38%[/TD]
[TD]1,05%[/TD]
[TD]0,67%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Amerindian[/TD]
[TD]0,68%[/TD]
[TD]0,00%[/TD]
[TD]-0,68%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Oceanian[/TD]
[TD]0,08%[/TD]
[TD]0,28%[/TD]
[TD]0,20%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Northeast_African[/TD]
[TD]0,21%[/TD]
[TD]0,00%[/TD]
[TD]-0,21%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sub-Saharan[/TD]
[TD]0,04%[/TD]
[TD]0,00%[/TD]
[TD]-0,04%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Mixed-mode population sharing (majority Hungarian minority various population results)
3 80.5% Hungarian + 19.5% Greek @ 3.45
7 80.8% Hungarian + 19.2% Tuscan @ 3.51
11 87.6% Hungarian + 12.4% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.57
12 79.4% Hungarian + 20.6% North_Italian @ 3.7
17 72% Hungarian + 28% Bulgarian @ 3.9


Bonus: Dodecad V3 Oracle results
1 85.9% Slovenian (Xing) + 14.1% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 1.38
2 85.2% Slovenian (Xing) + 14.8% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 1.47
3 81.7% Slovenian (Xing) + 18.3% Tuscan (Xing) @ 1.64
4 81.8% Slovenian (Xing) + 18.2% Tuscan (Henn) @ 1.65
5 88.3% Slovenian (Xing) + 11.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.65
6 89.6% Slovenian (Xing) + 10.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 1.68
7 88.3% Slovenian (Xing) + 11.7% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 1.7
8 82.3% Slovenian (Xing) + 17.7% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.78
9 86.9% Slovenian (Xing) + 13.1% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.8
10 89.3% Slovenian (Xing) + 10.7% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.86
11 85.1% Slovenian (Xing) + 14.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.87
12 88.9% Slovenian (Xing) + 11.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.91
13 91.4% Slovenian (Xing) + 8.6% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.91
15 91.7% Slovenian (Xing) + 8.3% Samaritians (Behar) @ 2.01
16 91.8% Slovenian (Xing) + 8.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.19
18 91.6% Slovenian (Xing) + 8.4% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.29
19 87.1% Slovenian (Xing) + 12.9% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 2.32
20 91.7% Slovenian (Xing) + 8.3% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 2.36

 

[Alexandros]

Thanks for sharing your results. Here are my views:

The Dodecad k12b data identify you as a typical Hungarian, with a bit less northern European and a bit more western European admixture than the average. The differences in the southwest Asian admixture are less important than that. The Eurogenes calculator confirms this, as it reveals lower than average 'north sea' and 'Baltic' admixtures and higher than average 'Atlantic' and also reveals a substantial higher 'eastern Med' admixture. The reference population for the 'east Med' component in Eurogenes are the Lebanese, if I am not mistaken. Please note that your 'red sea' component is not higher than the average, so we can exclude a northeast African/Arabian peninsula admixture. The fact that your 'Atlantic' component is also elevated points to either a population that has high levels of both 'eastern Med' and 'Atlantic' admixture. Unless you believe that there are two different ancestors each responsible for each increase (east Med and Atlantic). If you go for the former, then your options are much narrower. I would go for Italian. From what I can see from the population averages (EUtest v2) they are probably the only population having both higher 'east Med' and 'Atlantic' components than the average Hungarian. Your ancestry however will have to be determined based on the populations that interacted with Hungarians during the past centuries and I cannot provide much help in that.. It is not an easy task. I did a lot of history revising lately in order to identify my possible ancestors..

 

[BakodiP]

Thanks for sharing your results. Here are my views:

The Dodecad k12b data identify you as a typical Hungarian, with a bit less northern European and a bit more western European admixture than the average. The differences in the southwest Asian admixture are less important than that. The Eurogenes calculator confirms this, as it reveals lower than average 'north sea' and 'Baltic' admixtures and higher than average 'Atlantic' and also reveals a substantial higher 'eastern Med' admixture. The reference population for the 'east Med' component in Eurogenes are the Lebanese, if I am not mistaken. Please note that your 'red sea' component is not higher than the average, so we can exclude a northeast African/Arabian peninsula admixture. The fact that your 'Atlantic' component is also elevated points to either a population that has high levels of both 'eastern Med' and 'Atlantic' admixture. Unless you believe that there are two different ancestors each responsible for each increase (east Med and Atlantic). If you go for the former, then your options are much narrower. I would go for Italian. From what I can see from the population averages (EUtest v2) they are probably the only population having both higher 'east Med' and 'Atlantic' components than the average Hungarian. Your ancestry however will have to be determined based on the populations that interacted with Hungarians during the past centuries and I cannot provide much help in that.. It is not an easy task. I did a lot of history revising lately in order to identify my possible ancestors..

Italian could be an option. I've thought about it. It could have happened many ways. Western part of Hungary was under Roman rule for almost 300 years, Pannonia province. My family is almost exclusively has its origins from Western Hungary. During the Middle Ages many Italians came to Hungary, mercenaries, artists, priests, masons etc. King Matthias Corvinus had an Italian wife and a great renaissance court. ("With his patronage Hungary became the first European country which adopted the Renaissance from Italy." en.wiki - http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674063464) During my search in the National Archaives I've found Bakodi named guys who were part of the royal court, but I couldn't link those Bakodis with my family, because I could only go back till 1593.

But for other options I can come up with planty of theories, like Greece. Hungary had many connections with the Byzantine empire, and was a refugee after Ottoman conquest. Also during Ottoman times many Turkish, Anatolian and people from the Balkans came to Hungary. I also have a distant Armenian match on Y-DNA (10/12, 23/25, 33/37, 57,67), and many Armenians came to Hungary as well. Although Armenians are really a mix, they also had Roman and Byzantine connections. As for other Middle Easterners during the Middle Ages the financial elite of Hungary was primarly Muslim and Jewish. There were many so called "Ismaelite" merchants in Hungary. They even had mosques and separated quarters of cities.

 

[Sile]

Italian could be an option. I've thought about it. It could have happened many ways. Western part of Hungary was under Roman rule for almost 300 years, Pannonia province. My family is almost exclusively has its origins from Western Hungary. During the Middle Ages many Italians came to Hungary, mercenaries, artists, priests, masons etc. King Matthias Corvinus had an Italian wife and a great renaissance court. ("With his patronage Hungary became the first European country which adopted the Renaissance from Italy." en.wiki - http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674063464) During my search in the National Archaives I've found Bakodi named guys who were part of the royal court, but I couldn't link those Bakodis with my family, because I could only go back till 1593.

But for other options I can come up with planty of theories, like Greece. Hungary had many connections with the Byzantine empire, and was a refugee after Ottoman conquest. Also during Ottoman times many Turkish, Anatolian and people from the Balkans came to Hungary. I also have a distant Armenian match on Y-DNA (10/12, 23/25, 33/37, 57,67), and many Armenians came to Hungary as well. Although Armenians are really a mix, they also had Roman and Byzantine connections. As for other Middle Easterners during the Middle Ages the financial elite of Hungary was primarly Muslim and Jewish. There were many so called "Ismaelite" merchants in Hungary. They even had mosques and separated quarters of cities.

hungary fought venice for over 300 years for friuli and dalmatia

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Hungarian-Venetian+Wars

at the end, for dalmatia, venice paid some monies to HRE ( hungarian ruler) and he signed away dalamtia from HRE forever.

Hungarians at that time had a lot of bavarians fighting for them

 

[MOESAN]

That being said, U5b seems to peak among basque and northern Spanish populations. The basques have the worlds highest density of U5b subclade (10%) along with central Navarre province (16%).

Navarra, as a whole, even if not in Basque country in administration, is a basque land for the most

 

[BakodiP]

Thanks for sharing your results. Here are my views:

The Dodecad k12b data identify you as a typical Hungarian, with a bit less northern European and a bit more western European admixture than the average. The differences in the southwest Asian admixture are less important than that. The Eurogenes calculator confirms this, as it reveals lower than average 'north sea' and 'Baltic' admixtures and higher than average 'Atlantic' and also reveals a substantial higher 'eastern Med' admixture. The reference population for the 'east Med' component in Eurogenes are the Lebanese, if I am not mistaken. Please note that your 'red sea' component is not higher than the average, so we can exclude a northeast African/Arabian peninsula admixture. The fact that your 'Atlantic' component is also elevated points to either a population that has high levels of both 'eastern Med' and 'Atlantic' admixture. Unless you believe that there are two different ancestors each responsible for each increase (east Med and Atlantic). If you go for the former, then your options are much narrower. I would go for Italian. From what I can see from the population averages (EUtest v2) they are probably the only population having both higher 'east Med' and 'Atlantic' components than the average Hungarian. Your ancestry however will have to be determined based on the populations that interacted with Hungarians during the past centuries and I cannot provide much help in that.. It is not an easy task. I did a lot of history revising lately in order to identify my possible ancestors..

I checked HarappaWorld, Jtest and MDLP World-22 Oracle results as weel. Still seems Levant to me. What do you think?

HarappaWorld

2		88.5%	hungarian (behar)	+	11.5%	morocco-jew (behar)	@	1.79
3		81.9%	hungarian (behar)	+	18.1%	tuscan (1000genomes)	@	1.85
4		88.6%	hungarian (behar)	+	11.4%	sephardic-jew (behar)	@	1.88
5		86.6%	hungarian (behar)	+	13.4%	ashkenazy-jew (behar)	@	1.99
6		85.4%	hungarian (behar)	+	14.6%	ashkenazi (harappa)	@	2.1
16		79.5%	hungarian (behar)	+	20.5%	italian (hgdp)	@	2.49
17		91%	hungarian (behar)	+	9%	cypriot (behar)	@	2.53
18		70.1%	hungarian (behar)	+	29.9%	romanian-a (behar)	@	2.64
20		91.4%	hungarian (behar)	+	8.6%	lebanese (behar)	@	2.68

Eurogenes Jtest

7		92.4%	HU	+	7.6%	Druze	@	4.71
9		54%	HU	+	46%	Serbian	@	4.87
14		93.8%	HU	+	6.2%	Samaritan	@	5.2
17		90%	HU	+	10%	GR	@	5.25
18		69.1%	HU	+	30.9%	RO	@	5.25

MDLP World 22

1		64.7%	Slovakian (derived)	+	35.3%	Ashkenazim_V (derived)	@	1.71
2		70.5%	Slovakian (derived)	+	29.5%	Jew_Romania (derived)	@	1.81
3		77.3%	Slovakian (derived)	+	22.7%	Jew_Italia (derived)	@	1.85
4		78.4%	Slovakian (derived)	+	21.6%	Sephardim (derived)	@	1.95
6		77%	Slovakian (derived)	+	23%	Jew_Francestrale (derived)	@	1.97
7		80%	Slovakian (derived)	+	20%	Cypriot (derived)	@	1.98
8		78.9%	Slovakian (derived)	+	21.1%	Jew_Algeria (derived)	@	1.98
9		79.1%	Slovakian (derived)	+	20.9%	Jew_Tunisia (derived)	@	1.99
10		79.8%	Slovakian (derived)	+	20.2%	Jew_Syria (derived)	@	1.99
12		78.1%	Slovakian (derived)	+	21.9%	Jew_Morocco (derived)	@	2.08
13		75.8%	Slovakian (derived)	+	24.2%	Greek_Cretan (derived)	@	2.13
16		79.7%	Slovakian (derived)	+	20.3%	Jew_Libya (derived)	@	2.18

 

[American Idiot]

I've tested Family Finder just a couple of months ago, since then I've tried all of the free admixture calculators avaliable. Both Eurogenes, Dodecad, MDLP and HarappaWorld Oracle results primarly put me as a Hungarian or other Cenetral European population (Serbian, Austrian etc.). The two population mode however shows results like 80-85% Central European (Hungarian, Slovenian etc.) and 18-10% Italian, Greek, or 90% CEU and 10-7% Sephardi Jewish, Lebanese, Druze, Arab etc. I got in touch with Mr. McDonald as well, he ran his test on my data. He came up with primarly Hungarian, but a considerable percent of my DNA shows Middle Eastern patterns.
View attachment 6061

My Y-DNA haplogroup is J2b* (M205-, M241-) which is thought to be a Middle Eastern haplogroup. Altough Mr. McDonald's map analysis puts my Mideast admixture to Albania/Greece where J2b peaks, but as far as I know exclusively J2b2 and J2b1. (He also told me that a Greek or Albanian line could be true for me, but I should also keep in mind Jews of Thessaloniki and Malta.)

View attachment 6062

Could it be, that my Y-DNA haplogroup so my direct paternal line is responsible for this Middle Eastern admixture or is it just whishful thinking and Y-DNA has absolutly nothing to do with these results?

I dont think a person's Y-DNA alone has any significant impact on their autosomal dna. IMO, your autosmal results are more likely because you come from Hungary, so you can easily have a large degree of Central European admixture along with genes that, perhaps, could have come from neolithic settlers in Europe who originated in the Mid-East and Mesopotamia. Since you're from Hungary it's no surprise if that part of your admixture-result is similar to the same type of Mid-Eastern admixture seen in populations from Greece, Italy, Albania, etc...