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Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Mycenaean_Pylos: 66.8%
Germany_Cordedware: 33.2%

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Delphi_BA_Mycenaean: 64.4%
Germany_Cordedware: 35.6%

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Mycenaean (Lazaridis et al. 2017): 63.9%
Germany_Cordedware: 36.1%

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So many foreign mercenaries in Himera, if few of those were Anatolian it would be a completely misleading picture of the polis. Luckily the Western and Northern outliers get ignored unlike the Anatolian ones, for some reason. There were also Illyrians in LBA Peloponnese.
 
ihype02 said:
So many foreign mercenaries in Himera, if few of those were Anatolian it would be a completely misleading picture of the polis. Luckily the Western and Northern outliers get ignored unlike the Anatolian ones, for some reason. There were also Illyrians in LBA Peloponnese.
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Yeah the north European merc + Himera Greek provides the most statistically robust model. But I think the half Pian_Sultano_BA + Himera Greek is a good contender, and more historical perhaps.
 
Jovialis said:
Himera was established in the second wave of Greek Colonization by Ionian Greeks.

We can see that LBA Cretans were Dorian speakers, we can see that they were big colonizers of the South too, along with Aeolians & Achaeans. Judging from Logkas samples in Northern Greece, they too had more Central European BA, which is why they plot over central Italians/ Tuscans.

The Dorian-speakers colonized Apulia, and Sicily; Dorian speakers colonized Crete. Thus, I don't think it is a surprise that LBA Cretans and Apulian, (along with other Southerners/Sicilians) overlaps. Perhaps it was this genetic profile that became the more prolific?

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Can you travel back in time to discover that the Late Bronze Age Cretans were Dorians? Cretans in the study, with the exception of a very few outliers, looked like ordinary Mycenaeans, other high-steppe samples from that study are genetically and archeologically related to the Cetina culture and can't accurately reflect the population of subsequent eras. The first study in your maps doesn't mean anything, because Ordona, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo are not Greek cities.

Logkas samples? They date to the very beginning of the Middle Bronze Age. The Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Greeks would be much more southern.
 
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Reckless said:
Can you travel back in time to discover that the Late Bronze Age Cretans were Dorians? Cretans in the study, with the exception of a very few outliers, looked like ordinary Mycenaeans, other high-steppe samples from that study are genetically and archeologically related to the Cetina culture and can't accurately reflect the population of subsequent eras. The first study in your maps doesn't mean anything, because Ordona, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo are not Greek cities.

Logkas samples? They date to the very beginning of the Middle Bronze Age. The Late Bronze Age and Iron Age Greeks would be much more southern.
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There is no evidence whatsoever suggest the high steppe samples in this study were associated with Cetina genetically or archaeologically. Cetina is not even once mentioned in the paper. If you feel convinced of this then I would like to see definitive proof. Otherwise these are simply high steppe Greek/Myceneans just like Logkas was.
 
Vitruvius said:
There is no evidence whatsoever suggest the high steppe samples in this study were associated with Cetina genetically or archaeologically. Cetina is not even once mentioned in the paper. If you feel convinced of this then I would like to see definitive proof. Otherwise these are simply high steppe Greek/Myceneans just like Logkas was.
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Yes, but archaeologically they resemble Cetina by their patriarchal burial customs and findings. Logkas samples looked like Anatolia_N + Steppe, these "Mycenaeans" look like Illyria/Cetina + some sort of Mycenaean admixture. They are not similar at all.
 
Jovialis said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1838708657397096622
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Jovialis, all this experimentation with different admixes points out to me that playing around with genetic models without a firm foundation in archaeology and history can lead, in the wrong hands, nationalistic agendas. Not that I am accusing you of that, far from it. Would IBD be more appropriate? Are we limited by damage to ancient samples and statistical models are the best we can do?
 
bigsnake49 said:
Jovialis, all this experimentation with different admixes points out to me that playing around with genetic models without a firm foundation in archaeology and history can lead, in the wrong hands, nationalistic agendas. Not that I am accusing you of that, far from it. Would IBD be more appropriate? Are we limited by damage to ancient samples and statistical models are the best we can do?
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There is ancIBD, but frankly I'm not sure how it works really. @Salento has experimented with it.
 
D.L.M said:
So many foreign mercenaries in Himera, if few of those were Anatolian it would be a completely misleading picture of the polis. Luckily the Western and Northern outliers get ignored unlike the Anatolian ones, for some reason. There were also Illyrians in LBA Peloponnese.
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These were Late MBA samples, not LBA.
 
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