• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

Religion Christianity: Conceptions and misconceptions

Pararousia said:
Perhaps we have a conflict of definitions again. Would you consider a miracle as "something we cannot explain yet"? I forget and use words common to me loosely when I shouldn't on this forum. Let me rephrase my statement above... I will continue to pray for a MIRACLE of God's grace to transform those who have yet to understand the mysteries of God and His love for us.
That's precisely how I would define a miracle, and I would say miracles come under the umbrella of supernatural events - i.e. as Mycernius so rightly says, things that science can't explain yet. I am trying to maintain my detached understanding here, and struggling not to take offense, but I just find it arrogant and intolerant of anyone to think they know better what people need than they do themselves - particularly when those in question are quite content with their worldview as is. Please let us know your opinions and debate with us your different beliefs, but please don't pray for us to understand something that we don't feel a need for. I apologise for the rant, but sometimes I just have to say how I feel! :gomen:
 
No offense taken or intended, Tsuyoiko. I do have difficulty understanding how being prayed for "spiritually rapes" those who don't believe in God in the first place. Are you afraid it(the prayer request) will happen? I pray in love for people that they would have the very BEST that there is--and that happens to be Jesus Christ when they don't have Him. Other times, I pray for other things people need...like health if they are sick, or jobs if they need one, or healing of relationships if theirs are broken. How are you sure you don't need prayer?
 
Pararousia said:
No offense taken or intended, Tsuyoiko. I do have difficulty understanding how being prayed for "spiritually rapes" those who don't believe in God in the first place. Are you afraid it(the prayer request) will happen? I pray in love for people that they would have the very BEST that there is--and that happens to be Jesus Christ when they don't have Him. Other times, I pray for other things people need...like health if they are sick, or jobs if they need one, or healing of relationships if theirs are broken. How are you sure you don't need prayer?
Think of it this way. Would you really like a Muslim praying for you to find his version of God? To his belief system? Probably not. Tsuyoiko is happy with her beliefs and you are happy with yours. To pray for her and tell her that you are can sound patronising. As far as spirituality is concerned, I have found that many people do not need a God for that. Spirituality is your inner peace with the world and its surrondings. Supernatural beings are not needed for that.
 
Mycernius said:
Think of it this way. Would you really like a Muslim praying for you to find his version of God? To his belief system? Probably not. Tsuyoiko is happy with her beliefs and you are happy with yours. To pray for her and tell her that you are can sound patronising. As far as spirituality is concerned, I have found that many people do not need a God for that. Spirituality is your inner peace with the world and its surrondings. Supernatural beings are not needed for that.

It certainly wouldn't offend me because I know nothing would happen--or in certain cases, God would protect me from their prayers. I say...pray away...let's see whose God wins.

I'm sorry, but I don't mean to sound patronizing.
 
After a few days of clouds, drizzilling gloom, and the onslaught of a truer Autumn, we have a sun filled sky, warmth, and life sutaining warmth today. It causes my heart to sing, my brain to work harder, my feelings and metabolism to soar. It's a single miracle in the miracle that life is, in one way of speaking, but is not what has been on the topic table these past few threads.

I am kind of center on this one, I think, and hope that it goes over well. For the most part, of course, I reason that the concept laid out in number 199, on that matter; but set that aside.

studyonline san, Good morning ! When I had posted #194, p 8, I hadn't yet opened your thread on 'Glory of God', so I didn't know. Now I know that you did not wake up one morning and suddenly have all that information in your head, but that rather you read and were taught the Bible by someone who had already gone through the same process, and taught you from the data base interpretation in that person's head. That was no miracle. It escapes me how it is you didn't attempt to answer an honest (as opposed to rhetorical) question. I wish you would have tried to answer it straightforwardly.

Which particular copy of the Bible do you use? [this is an honest question]
I noticed that the translation of "2 Cor 3:6 doesn't adhere to the context of the Greek so clearly there. The immediate context starts at verse one of chapter three, and continues up until verse 18, with a conclusion reached by all that talk in 4:1,2.

I can understand the direction you are trying to point in studyonline, but I wish to help you clearly understand, that it is simply impossible today, or even 1000 years ago, to know what first century Christians or 6th century Jews had been taught without having language. I really question your postition and stability on that point. Now if you have problems understanding linguistical matters, then, o.k. I'd be happy to help out where I can, but if it's just a matter of not wanting to take the time to be realistic with empirical knowledge, then I would heartfeltly like to encourage you to think heavier and more deeply about it--language is the number one key to knowledge, because of the inadequacy of a single individual's opportunity to experience.
Can you understand what I mean? [this is an honest question, I hope to get feedback on it so that I can understand you better, you see?]

If a person cannot understand, or has no knowledge of the reality of the communication of any first-hand document (for example can't read the language, or don't even know that such text exists) there is extremely little room for expounding on it. Do you think that this is true? [an honest question]

I greatly appreciate your debating these things, and your endeavor to keep up and go over it all. I understand that it all being in English could present a hardship at times, and am proud of your continuing efforts to wade through all that--I know it must be hard. I would like to encourage you on that point with all the understanding and love I can. PLEASE KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!

I hope to hear from you on the questions asked herein. ???肪?Ƃ????????܂??I
???????A???{??Ȃ?????Ǝ????炵?????????????g?????Ƃ??ł??邾?낤???E?E?E?{???ɉp??ł???΂??Ă??邱?Ƃ????񂵂Ⴕ?????Ǝv???܂??B?@????ς?A???t?͑厖?Ȃ??Ƃł?????A?˃b?I?I
?i???́e??????f?̃X?^?C???͂????l?̕??ł??B?j?@I always use it in a humorous way.
See you !! Please forgive my using some Japanese here, for those who do not read--the attempt is to encourage, since we are using English.
 
Last edited:
Pararousia said:
No offense taken or intended, Tsuyoiko. I do have difficulty understanding how being prayed for "spiritually rapes" those who don't believe in God in the first place. Are you afraid it(the prayer request) will happen? I pray in love for people that they would have the very BEST that there is--and that happens to be Jesus Christ when they don't have Him. Other times, I pray for other things people need...like health if they are sick, or jobs if they need one, or healing of relationships if theirs are broken. How are you sure you don't need prayer?
I anticipated that objection! :p The reason I don't like being prayed for is that it seems like an invasion of privacy, and by doing it you assume that you know better what I need than I do. I thinks it's analogous to someone medicating me without my knowledge - whether or not I believe it will work is irrelevant. I don't believe antidepressants work, but if someone said to me "That tea you just drunk - I put antidepressants in it 'cos I think you seem fed up", who wouldn't be livid? Firstly, what right have they to judge if I'm fed up or not? Secondly, even if I am fed up, it's not their place to deal with it! I hope that makes my point of view clearer Pararousia :relief:
 
I've had some JWs come around today. It is the first time I have ever spoke to one who didn't quote from the Bible when he got backed into a corner. He actually had his own views and interpretations for his religion. Also he is the only one who has never said "God is timeless," when asking where did God come from, but admitted that he didn't know. It proves that there are JWs and other of that ilk that can think beyond the Bible.
We did have one thing in common though. There is a more important thing than God in this world, that is Chocolate :-)
 
mmmmmmmmmm Chocolate. It's not more important than God, but it certainly beats drugs, alcohol and (no I'm not going to say sex) most other foods. Just had a brownie, btw.
 
About 2 months ago, a JW came up to my flat here in Japan. He gave me his literature, which looked strangely familiar to what we used to get in the US and then started asking me about Christianity.

I said no, I'm not a Christian, but I used to be.

He asked me what I thought the kingdom of God is.

I said that I thought the kingdom of God was not a place you could ever find or go to, but rather the Christian church in general. Every member of the church is also a member of the kingdom of God. This kingdom of God should be paradise, because if Christians lived according to Jesus' teachings and the 10 Commandments, there would be no crime, no murder, etc., within the kingdom.

He asked a couple other questions, and I gave similar answers. I think he was shocked to meet up with someone who knew anything at all about the Bible, because he seemed to lose more confidence with each answer I gave him. Not that I said anything spectacular, mind you.

I haven't seen a JW since.
 
sabro said:
If I can ask, why did you "use to be" a Christian?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but I assume you're asking why I'm not a Christian any more?

There is no simple answer to that. It was something that happened gradually. I grew up in a Lutheran household, and being Christian was almost taken for granted in my hometown. In high school I was the most involved member of my family in the church. Then, slowly, I parted ways with the Church.

I was not nor am I bitter towards Christianity, nor do I harbor any hostilities in particular.

It was like when your body is still growing, and one day you notice that the pants you've been wearing for the past year or so no longer seem to fit right. Then after a while they no longer fit at all. Thus it was with me and Christianity.

Why do you ask? :wave:
 
Just curious. I didn't become a Christian until my teen years and I am always interested in why people leave.
 
Along the same lines, I always ask anyone who stops me in the street, or those that come to the door, why they chose that particular religion? Most JWs or Mormons are usually converts and I am curious to why they would choose that branch of Christianity. Most of them say they were not happy in their religion and found a new one. They are a little stumped when I point out that they haven't changed their religion, just gone for a different denomination of Christianity. I haven't met one yet that actually looked at non-christian religions when undergoing a crisis of faith.
 
Mainstream evangelicals don't consider either church a branch of Christianity. There are several items of doctrine in both religions that make them significantly different to mainstream Christianity.
 
I didn't know that, Thanks.
What would you call them then? They still follow the teachings of Christ, even if it is in a altered way to what is mainstream Christianity. I know Mormons have the add on Book of Mormon to the rest of the Bible. I also know that Mormons , in this country at least, use the King James Bible. As for JWs, they have there own translation of the Bible and their own interpretation of passages, probably because the church sprung from a Bible study group. They still follow the teachings of Christ in their own way though, so that would still make them Christian. Or am I missing something?
Sorry if I sound condescending, I don't mean to.
 
Islam, too follows (some of?) the teachings of Christ-- but Islam is not Christianity. Christians keep the entire "Old Testament" Jewish writings as sacred and holy, but Chritians are not Jewish.

I believe it is because the Mormon Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses have atered some of the basic tennents of the faith, that mainstream denominations consider them to be a different religion entirely. Certain doctrines common to both Protestants and Catholics are absent in both of these other churches. (Trinity, divinity of Christ, Salvation by grace through faith...)

Let me ask around a bit and see if I can't be a little more specific.
 
I think you covered it well, Sabro. They wish to be perceived as a Christian denomination, but they are cults.
 
Mycernius said:
Most JWs or Mormons are usually converts and I am curious to why they would choose that branch of Christianity.............I haven't met one yet that actually looked at non-christian religions when undergoing a crisis of faith.
I heard that the less mainstream churches were growing, the JWs, Mormons, and the person I heard this from also grouped Seventh Day Adventists in there as well (I grew up in an SDA household, and went to an interdenominational school. I didn't think the SDAs were so very different from mainstream Christianity).
 
Loma Linda here in Southern California is a Seventh Day Adventist stronghold. I think the founders of both the Jehovah's Witnessess and Latter Day Saints came from Seventh Day backgrounds. Theologically they are a fairly mainstream evangelical fundamentalist sect that believes in worship on Saturdays, and vegetarianism. SDA's invented breakfast cereals and PB & J.
 
sabro said:
Loma Linda here in Southern California is a Seventh Day Adventist stronghold.
My grandmother works at Loma Linda as a secretary, and both my adoptive parents went to Uni and worked in the hospital there.
sabro said:
I think the founders of both the Jehovah's Witnessess and Latter Day Saints came from Seventh Day backgrounds. Theologically they are a fairly mainstream evangelical fundamentalist sect that believes in worship on Saturdays, and vegetarianism. SDA's invented breakfast cereals and PB & J.
Never knew the founders of JWs and LDSs were SDA, the breakfast cereal is an interesting tidbit. What is PB&J?

I thought about why that guy would've put the SDAs in with the other groups considered cults by some. Some of the SDA members place Ellen G White's writings above the Bible (Ellen wrote, 'my writings are a guide to understanding the Bible, and in no way are equal to or takes precendence over it <--paraphrased). They even follow some of her private letters addressed to one person alone. Would that be considered 'cultish'? I would agree, and say that the actual church doctrine is more similar to that of other mainstream evangelical fundamentalist denominations.
 
Back
Top