Central and South Asian DNA Paper

[markozd]

.... And the denial in those forums is just delicious. Its really enjoyable to see how reich and Krause are on their way to be stupid and pathetic idiots that know nothing about the subject.
Indeed , Like we say in portugal, "there are more tides than sailors". And I sure took loads of bullshit in those forums. I am starting to feel vindicated.

It's sad that the whole debated has such a strong ideological tinge. I'd always maintained that there was a strong attachement to a northern homeland that had little to do with pure science and more with ego & ethnic chauvinism. But you're no better insulting people like that.

Hopefully the data Reich & Krause have will be unambiguous and all this isn't merely their best guess.

 

[Olympus Mons]

It's sad that the whole debated has such a strong ideological tinge. I'd always maintained that there was a strong attachement to a northern homeland that had little to do with pure science and more with ego & ethnic chauvinism. But you're no better insulting people like that.

Hopefully the data Reich & Krause have will be unambiguous and all this isn't merely their best guess.

...you did get that its not me insulting reich and Krauser, right?
That its at those forums that once revered those guys but know are starting to say they know nothing about linguistics and they are going against the data, and so forth.

So, who was I insulting?

 

[halfalp]

This things are really delicious. I was reading Anthrogenicas thread https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...ypothesis-quot&p=382413&viewfull=1#post382413Apparently in a german documentary Johannes krauser is reiterating what he already said before Reich and what reich is publishing these days...south Caucasus definitly home of PIE. Its worthwhile reading it. Because clearly is said that homeland is south caucasus, armenia and eastern anatolia, EVEN POSSIBLE western iran. So clearly they know are "my Shulaveri". And if so, its irritatingly vague. Yamanaya yamanaya yamnaya...but when it comes to Shulaveri its always south Caucasus....there was only them there so its not rocket science to name them....

In that matter, South Caucasus could only be home of PPIE. If you assume South Caucasus is the home of PIE, you also assume that his expansion in Eurasia is from South Caucasus. And how they would actually knows, Reich has said many times that Yamnaya was the origin of indo-european languages in western europe and south asia, why they even boring change their mind all the time.

 

[halfalp]

It's sad that the whole debated has such a strong ideological tinge. I'd always maintained that there was a strong attachement to a northern homeland that had little to do with pure science and more with ego & ethnic chauvinism. But you're no better insulting people like that.Hopefully the data Reich & Krause have will be unambiguous and all this isn't merely their best guess.

You know, if PIE was postulated to come from India, we would have to deal with indian ego & ethnic chauvinism. Why applied in europeans it changes the deal ? The backlash with the reconstructed cheddar men and some afrocentrists claiming white people might have to worship them as their master ancestor. I'm always surprised how people in europe can easily criticise themselves and their environnement but lack the critic to understand that every humans are racist or chauvinist in their matter.

 

[Ailchu]

"Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. That made Patterson look south, to the Maikop civilization, which likely had significant contact with the Yamnaya, as a plausible culture where Indo-European languages originated. Samples have been obtained from Maikop burial sites, but the DNA work to test that proposal is pending, Patterson said."

is this actually true? i thought armenians did have EHG.

 

[Olympus Mons]

In that matter, South Caucasus could only be home of PPIE. If you assume South Caucasus is the home of PIE, you also assume that his expansion in Eurasia is from South Caucasus. And how they would actually knows, Reich has said many times that Yamnaya was the origin of indo-european languages in western europe and south asia, why they even boring change their mind all the time.

I am not a linguistic. So PIE and PPIE or.PPPPPIE is meaningless. And if we are finding out by aDna that archaeology was full of it (bullshit) of sorts in the last 50 years, so much more the linguistics will be so on specifics for the movements of people in space and time.

What i know is that the shulaveri and south caucasus had the right mix to be the origin of PIE. Agriculture, cattle, metals, horses, etc. ...now apparently also have the right y-dna and genetic admix to be the urhmeit of what we see just following later in steppe that everybody has been shouting as the origin of Pie. And naturally solves the problem of Hittite.

 

[Cpluskx]

Some of those commenters on Anthrogenica are really insane. What kind of qualifications, research and data they have to call Reich & Krause ignorant?

 

[LeBrok]

"Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. That made Patterson look south, to the Maikop civilization, which likely had significant contact with the Yamnaya, as a plausible culture where Indo-European languages originated. Samples have been obtained from Maikop burial sites, but the DNA work to test that proposal is pending, Patterson said."

is this actually true? i thought armenians did have EHG.

See, Armenia had pretty violent history. Here is the chart telling it. First is CHG, the second one is Armenian Farmer of Early Bronze Age. We can see it he is very similar to CHG but with additional admixtures of Iranian and Anatolian Farmers.
Next two point to drastic changes Armenia went through during Bronze Age. The telling sign is sharp rise of North East Euro admixture. The closest source was Bronze Age Steppe, therefore Steppe invasion through Caucase.
The big surprise is that Modern Armenians don't have much of NE Euro left. They look surprisingly like EBA Armenian before Steppe invasion. It looks like the all the late BA Armenians, possibly the communities extensively mixed with IEs, left the area or were wiped out, and "original" Armenians took over once again.

[TABLE="width: 521"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]M603839[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]M536324[/TD]
[TD]I1658[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]M691697 [/TD]
[TD]RISE407[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Modern[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kotias CHG[/TD]
[TD]8 KYA[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Armenia EBA[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Armenia LBA[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Armenian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13.98[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.22[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Run time[/TD]
[TD]3.92[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Run time[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.62[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.27[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]S-Indian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.63[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.53[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD]28.22[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Baloch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]54.15[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56.75[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD]30.75[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Caucasian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.84[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.79[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD]24.77[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Euro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.59[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.77[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Siberian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]NE-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.15[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Papuan[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]American[/TD]
[TD]1.54[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]American[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Beringian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5.88[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD]6.98[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Mediterranean[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.45[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD]6.38[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]SW-Asian[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]San[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]E-African[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.25[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]Pygmy[/TD]
[TD]- [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.01[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.33[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD]W-African[/TD]
[TD]1.36[/TD]
[TD] [/TD]
[TD="colspan: 2"]W-African[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Olympus Mons]

"Genetic evidence ruled out one likely related group in the region, the Yamnaya, because their DNA showed the group had hunter-gatherer ancestry, which is inconsistent with the fact that two Indo-European groups, Armenians and Indians, don’t share it, Patterson said. That made Patterson look south, to the Maikop civilization, which likely had significant contact with the Yamnaya, as a plausible culture where Indo-European languages originated. Samples have been obtained from Maikop burial sites, but the DNA work to test that proposal is pending, Patterson said."

is this actually true? i thought armenians did have EHG.

Hi. When would have patterson said that?

 

[markozd]

...you did get that its not me insulting reich and Krauser, right?
That its at those forums that once revered those guys but know are starting to say they know nothing about linguistics and they are going against the data, and so forth.

So, who was I insulting?

I did get that. But scratch it, I just read the thread on anthrogenica and saw comments insinuating that David Reich would push for a southern homeland because he's Jewish. Those anthrogenica guys actually are pathetic :embarassed:

 

[Angela]

I did get that. But scratch it, I just read the thread on anthrogenica and saw comments insinuating that David Reich would push for a southern homeland because he's Jewish. Those anthrogenica guys actually are pathetic :embarassed:

I guess Johannes Krause is as well?

After I read the link I took a look at the "General" section. It's theapricity 2. How sad that they ban informed posters and these nitwits have the run of the forum. Sikeliot, of course, is back talking to himself about Southern Italians via one or more socks. It's really funny in a black humor sort of way.

The Ancient dna section still seems reputable from what I can tell, although there are some "out there", unchallenged posts there as well.

 

[epoch]

I did get that. But scratch it, I just read the thread on anthrogenica and saw comments insinuating that David Reich would push for a southern homeland because he's Jewish. Those anthrogenica guys actually are pathetic :embarassed:

That was me, and that's not what I said. Reread it, and then try to understand it.

 

[epoch]

I guess Johannes Krause is as well?

After I read the link I took a look at the "General" section. It's theapricity 2. How sad that they ban informed posters and these nitwits have the run of the forum. Sikeliot, of course, is back talking to himself about Southern Italians via one or more socks. It's really funny in a black humor sort of way.

The Ancient dna section still seems reputable from what I can tell, although there are some "out there", unchallenged posts there as well.

Same for you. Read the actual postings and then comment on it.

 

[epoch]

Same for you. Read the actual postings and then comment on it.

The actual postings. First user Patarames claims:

So I wonder who's opinion is worth more... more so because their bilateral conclusion has no kind of benefits for personal agendas...

To which I respond:

The son of the former president U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum and a German (!) academic proving that the "Aryan Invasions" weren't done by Europeans might be a very strong incentive. I can imagine the idea of an European population doing that may sound a bit too much like proving Hitler right, even if the irony that this homeland was in Ukraine probably isn't entirely lost on them.

EDIT: I don't say this actually is the case, because I don't know either gentlemen, but you simply cannot state the highlighted text.

And:

Exactly my point. I like to stress that I have no idea weather of not this plays. It is just that you cannot claim political bias is undeniably absent and use that undeniability to strengthen your point.

Pasted with all its errors.

EDIT: with relevant link: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...sus-hypothesis-quot/page5&p=382567#post382567

 

[Angela]

Same for you. Read the actual postings and then comment on it.

I'm not a mind reader. I don't know what the heck you're on about.

I READ the threads in the general section on Southern Italians. There are two active ones at the present time.

I READ the threads on South Asia and the steppe. I'm not interested in the others. I didn't read every post, but I went back a bit. Whether I agree with them or not, they're mostly not at all t-roll posts.

Who the heck are you defending? Yourself? I don't even recall seeing your name.

A little hyper-sensitive it seems.

 

[Balkanite]

Some of those commenters on Anthrogenica are really insane. What kind of qualifications, research and data they have to call Reich & Krause ignorant?

I think some of those commenters suffer from something.
Im not a psychologist, but terms like 'denial' and 'delusional' would undoubtedly be present in their files at their shrinks office.

 

[Olympus Mons]

The actual postings. First user Patarames claims:To which I respond:Andasted with all its errors.EDIT: with relevant link: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...sus-hypothesis-quot/page5&p=382567#post382567

And the Irony must not be lost on you that a forum that pushed out (banned) so many for posting dissonante opinions to the "forums oficial" mantra (political/socio/inferiority complex/.... pick whatever) which was based on papers and opinions of these same Labs, now its challenging the motivations of that same people. I, for one, was lured into heat exchanged with particular posters there, and assume that the tone was allowed because it was what was being thrown back at me by people like Richard Rocca, Just to be immediately banned. Isn't it ironic that both of the powerhouses of aDna (MPI and Harvard Reich) are now basicly stating the exact, the exact, mantra I was trying to explain from the get go in there. On my part, nothing changes. I keep on saying the same I was saying in 2015.

 

[Angela]

I'm not a mind reader. I don't know what the heck you're on about.

I READ the threads in the general section on Southern Italians. There are two active ones at the present time.

I READ the threads on South Asia and the steppe. I'm not interested in the others. I didn't read every post, but I went back a bit. Whether I agree with them or not, they're mostly not at all t-roll posts.

Who the heck are you defending? Yourself? I don't even recall seeing your name.

A little hyper-sensitive it seems.

Ed. Ah, now I get it: You're talking about the original link. I did read it.

What possible difference does it make if Reich's father is the director of the Holocaust museum? Does that make him more Jewish or something, more apt to be biased?

My point actually was about Krause. Now all German academics are suspect too, I guess.

Former frequent Eastern European posters on Skadi and Stormfront who posted the most abominable anti-Semitic and anti-Southern European slurs, and who have spent the better part of a decade trying to prove how "Aryan" and therefore superior they are, like your buddy Polako, are unimpeachably objective are they?

Please, give us all a break. Your agenda is apparent in almost everything you write.

It's ok for half the ancestry to be "Caucasus like" but not the beginnings of the language? Or are you going to try to deny that as well? Oh, I remember, as long as it came via women it's ok, because they don't really matter.

I know you find it difficult to believe, but most people, normal people, don't give a ***** *** where the Indo-European language or pre-Indo-European language was first spoken. What freaking difference does it make other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity?

 

[epoch]

Ed. Ah, now I get it: You're talking about the original link. I did read it.

What possible difference does it make if Reich's father is the director of the Holocaust museum? Does that make him more Jewish or something, more apt to be biased?

My point actually was about Krause. Now all German academics are suspect too, I guess.

Former frequent Eastern European posters on Skadi and Stormfront who posted the most abominable anti-Semitic and anti-Southern European slurs, and who have spent the better part of a decade trying to prove how "Aryan" and therefore superior they are, like your buddy Polako, are unimpeachably objective are they?

Please, give us all a break. Your agenda is apparent in almost everything you write.

It's ok for half the ancestry to be "Caucasus like" but not the beginnings of the language? Or are you going to try to deny that as well? Oh, I remember, as long as it came via women it's ok, because they don't really matter.

I know you find it difficult to believe, but most people, normal people, don't give a ***** *** where the Indo-European language or pre-Indo-European language was first spoken. What freaking difference does it make other than as a matter of intellectual curiosity?

I have no idea what this response boils down to. Reread the exchange I pasted, maybe you get what it meant.

 

[epoch]

Im not a psychologist

That is quite clear.