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Religion Catholics vs Protestants, from an Atheist's point of view

Maciamo

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Disclaimer : I do not approve of Christianity, because it does not satisfy my criteria of rationality and logics. I also think that the moral values conveyed by the Bible are ambiguous, sometimes self-contradicting, and even immoral by my own standards at times (e.g. why should God ever condone slavery ?). However, I understand that some people need to believe in something irrational, or belong to some kind of spiritual community to fulfil themselves. In this thread, I will compare 3 main branches of Christianity, and judge from my "outsider's point of view" the strengths and weaknesses of each. The purpose is not to offend anyone, but to help undecided people who cannot cope with the "rigours" of Atheism, to choose the "least bad" of the three. I will also judge past achievements and mistakes of each. The three branches are : Catholicism, Liberal Protestantism and Conservative Protestatism, which I will call here Fundamentalism.

Dogma

Catholics have added a lot of new beliefs to the original Bible. Among them, the Saints and the 7 sacraments are the most obvious. The Saints are somehow a continuity of the Roman Polytheist religion. Catholic churches are named in honour to one particular saint, the way temples were dedicated to one particular Roman god. The fact that the Catholic Church has been based in Rome since the age of the Roman Empire, and latter emperors converted to Christianity, further emphasises this continuity. After all, the Pope also crowned the Holy German Emperor, heir to the Ancient Roman Emperors, up to the early 19th century. I therefore see Catholicism has a kind of polytheist religion, with an almighty "King of the Gods" that created the universe.

Protestants have much more monotheistic beliefs, as they do not give any importance to the saints or Virgin Mary. Their beliefs is also more "pure" as they got rid of any "added beliefs" not present in the Bible. This is good because it is more truly Christianity, but bad because contrarily to the Catholic Church, there is no top committee to tell the fidels to accept new (usually metaphorical) interpretations of the Bible, for example regarding the place of the earth at the center of the Universe, or the theory of evolution, which have both been accepted by the Catholic Church nowadays, but not by Fundamentalist Protestant, who won't accept anything that contradicts the literal interpretation of Bible. Liberal Protestants though, often understand the Bible is a metaphorical way, which allow them to reconcile science and religion.

Past achievements & mistakes

Catholicism is the oldest of the three, and it is therefore normal that it should have the most achievements & mistakes. It managed to built a huge, well-structured, world-wide organisation. I would say that this is both a positive and negative achievement. It is positive because it unifies the beliefs of the followers, and has a "team" of specialists to interpret the Bible, but negative because it is too dependent on these specialists (especially the Pope).

Among the mistakes were in fact decision from the Church in Rome to persecute people who did not follow exactly their interpretations of the Bible. The most famous was the 650-year-long Inquisition, which only ended in the late 19th century. There are many more events that can be blamed on the Catholic Church, such as the crusades, the "witch hunts", the conversion of "barbarians" in the New World by the force, and the persecution of scientists and philosophers through the ages.

Protestants do not have as much blood on their hands, except some Fundamentalists who have founded the Ku Klux Klan, a Protestant-based white supremacist organisation engaged in the killing of non whites and non Protestants.

One of the major Catholic achievements in my eyes, is their sponsoring of the arts. Many beautiful churches, statues, paintings and pieces of music, have been created thanks to the patronage or the Catholic Church. But where did this money come from, but from the often already impoverished believers...

Organisation & Liberalism

Another thing that can be reproached to the Catholic Church, is to have become extremely rich, and giving little back to its poorest followers, despite some of the most fundamental values of Christianity. Others will see in the Roman Catholic Church just an old-fashioned and despotic organisation. Compared to Protestants, though, it stands in between liberals and conservatives in its policies, and actually slightly more on the liberal side (for example, it recognises evolution).

Protestants do not have a central organisation, and also benefit from a more democratic discussion system within each community. It is not the priest who "sermons" the fidels and tell them how to think, but the whole church community that discusses together. Protestant pastors can marry and can be female, which is clearly more liberal than the Catholic stance.

However, Fundamentalists regard homosexual as sinners, and all non-Protestants as "lost souls" that need to be saved, while the Catholics nowadays have accepted homosexuals as "normal people". Catholics are also generally more tolerant of people of other religions. Liberal Protestants are usually as tolerant or more tolerant than Catholics.

Overall, the Liberal Protestant seem like the best alternative from every perspective. They are the least despotic, most tolerant, do not follow old-fashioned traditions, and tend to proselytise less.

P.S. : Anglicans are like Catholics in every respect, except that they have a bit less blood on the hands, and their "artistic achievements" are mostly limited to the UK (e.g. St Paul's in London, the world's 2nd largest cathedral, and one of the most sumptuous). We could see Anglicanism as a sort of "Independant Catholicism", autonomous from Rome, but with basically the same beliefs, organisation and political involvement (in fact maybe even greater, as the King or Queen of England heads the Anglican Church).

Orthodox Christians are also considered as a form of Catholicism autonomous from Rome, although with more differences in practices and organisation than the Anglicans.
 
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Overall I can agree with your post, just some minor points.

Maciamo said:
The purpose is not to offend anyone, but to help undecided people who cannot cope with the "rigours" of Atheism, to choose the "least bad" of the three.
If people need to follow a religion I'd recommend to choose some form of Buddhism.

the "witch hunts"
Actually, the witch hunts were not too much under the influence of the Catholic Church. Lots of clergy opposed it. It was more a phenomenon of mass hysteria (mostly in Middle Europe during the time of reformation). Parts of the Catholic Church accepted & supported it, parts didn't, just like in the non-Catholic churches. Witches were usually tried in civil courts.

Catholics nowadays have accepted homosexuals as "normal people". Catholics are also generally more tolerant of people of other religions.
Catholics maybe (partially), but not the Catholic Church. Quote from a Letter on Pastoral Care for homosexuals from 1986 (signed by Ratzinger):

"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.

Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."
 
bossel said:
Overall I can agree with your post, just some minor points.
If people need to follow a religion I'd recommend to choose some form of Buddhism.

Yes, of course. I would recommend Theravada Buddhism rather than any Christian sect too. But in some places (some regions of the USA), people may be discriminated or ostracised if they are Buddhist all the same as if they were Atheist. Such people have little choice but become Christian, or stay isolated in their community, or else move to more open-minded regions (but that is not always feasible). That is partly for such people that I made this thread.
 
I have to read the post later, but I was wondering why recommend Theravada? I expect that would be especially difficult for the average, say, westerner...

I've never felt really pressured to believe anything, even when I went to churches in the past. Then again I live in California, and can't really speak for the rest of the country.
 
nice gaijin said:
I have to read the post later, but I was wondering why recommend Theravada? I expect that would be especially difficult for the average, say, westerner...
I wouldn't recommend Mahayana Buddhism, because it is filled with superstitions and deities from Hinduism and Taoism, and too "institutionalised" (e.g. paying huge sums of money to priests for funerals).

Theravada (=Hinayana) is more "pure", in that it conserves the original principles of Buddhism almost intact. Buddha is not seen as a god (contrarily to Mahayana), and only meditation and good deeds can "save you" from the cycle of rebirth. In some Mahayana sects, like the Jodo and Josdoshin in Japan, simply saying the name of Amida Buddha saves you, even if you just do it once before dying ! It takes away all the benefits of following a religion.

So yes, Theravada is a bit "harder" than Mahayana, but not as complicated and exigent as Christianity or Islam. There is no "Bible", no obscure theological interpretations of the scriptures, no controversy (e..g the status of women, homosexuality, abortion, evolution...), no clergy ruling what to believe, no mass and no compulsory sacraments.

What I like with (Theravada) Buddhism is that it is a Universalist religion (as opposed to Dogmatic - see 1st definition in link), which means that you can freely pick and choose what you like, without taking the "whole package", and can even integrate elements of other religions or philosophies in it without being called a heretic. Some Liberal Protestant sects are also Universalist, like the Quakers.
 
Most Buddhists are however opposed to elective abortions.
 
Revenant said:
Most Buddhists are however opposed to elective abortions.

That could be true of Atheists too.:-)
 
Dunno, I find most Atheists to be pro-choice, and most Buddhists to be pro-life. Buddhists would see life as sacred, it is a part of their doctrine.
 
Revenant said:
Dunno, I find most Atheists to be pro-choice, and most Buddhists to be pro-life. Buddhists would see life as sacred, it is a part of their doctrine.

If we look at "traditional Buddhist countries" like Japan, Korea, Thailand, etc., we notice that the abortion rate is quite high, and it is rarely because of rapes, weak mother, or not wanting a baby girl (the latter is still common in India and China though). It is almost a means of contraception !
 
You should yourself know just how 'religious' the Japanese are. I would assume the same goes for the South Koreans, who also hardly seem religious. I do not know about Thailand, but on a Buddhist message board, something like 80% of all Buddhists were against elective abortions.
 
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