Politics Balkanian disagreements.

[Angela]

Just to confirm - you were behind iron curtain?

Anyone who can read history, biography, articles and papers based on all the files that were suddenly available after the fall of the "Iron Curtain" can acquire the information I posted. Now, of course, access is once again denied.

However, I do have a bit of personal experience with what was going on in those countries, even if, of course, nothing like Le Brok's, because I had some business dealings there in a prior incarnation.(although not in Poland)

It was eye opening, I'll say that. Everyone I dealt with was either working for the secret services, or was afraid the secret service types were listening to every word they said.

Before I went, I was told to look for, and did, and found, listening devices in my hotel rooms. (By the way, in comparison to the west, even at that time, the hotel rooms were abominable, the food execrable, the services almost non-existent, and the people grey and cowed.)

It was an object lesson in how lucky I was to live and work in the west, and what a tragedy it would have been if my anarchist and communist distant relatives had succeeded in turning Italy into a communist state after the war.

I can't even say the people were nice, not because they weren't, but because they were so afraid of saying the wrong thing that I got to really know very few of them. (Also, I have to say that the service personnel were without exception surly, sullen and sloppy. That's what happens perhaps when people get paid regardless of whether they're doing a decent job. I was told often that people pretended to work, and the government pretended to pay them!)

We did get away from the "minders" once, through some fancy footwork around corners in the city, and went to Transylvania. The farmers there had not been totally collectivized, so they still had some food (and alcohol) that they produced themselves. Very lovely people, very hospitable...too hospitable...I felt guilty because I knew I was taking the food out of their mouths, but I think they (and my friend) wanted to show that they hadn't been totally beaten into submission, and still had some pride and some dignity left. Oh, another thing I noticed is that these supposedly egalitarian countries had a class system the likes of which I'd never in my life seen. The obsequious behavior of the drivers, support staff, even to some extent among these farmers, to anyone not only with a high party position but even just to lawyers, was cringe making.

I feel guilty about another thing: when I returned from my last trip I sent some medications that weren't easily available and some National Geographic magazines to a lawyer with whom I'd become very friendly. I got him into terrible trouble, and all for the National Geographic magazine, that awful CIA controlled publication!

I would have very much liked to find a way to get him out, but I couldn't do it. Life isn't like the movies, you know, and people who did business in the eastern bloc weren't all CIA agents. Actually, the few CIA types I've ever met struck me as typical government employees; they certainly didn't bowl me over with their mental acuity and derring do. I'm never surprised when the intelligence they provide turns out to be so bad.

Oh, when my plane would land in the U.S., I was always very tempted to make like the Pope and get down and kiss the ground.

Now, are you sorry you asked?

 

[LABERIA]

In 1943, with the Soviet army tying down two-thirds of the German army on the Eastern front, Stalin boasted that the Soviet Union could defeat the Germans alone, without American and British help. What he ignored was that the Soviet Union wouldn't even be in a position to fight the Germans if it were not for the influx of massive American aid.

In July 1941, a nervous Stalin met with US presidential advisor Harry Hopkins. He candidly acknowledged that 75% of Soviet armaments industry was concentrated around Leningrad, Moscow, and Kiev, all areas directly under threat of German capture. Though America was not officially in the war yet, Stalin welcomed the introduction of US troops into any sector of the Soviet front, even under independent US command. And he begged for US supply of anti-aircraft guns, machine gins, rifles, fuel, and aluminum.


On Hopkins' advice, President Roosevelt ordered massive Lend-Lease aid to Russia, according priority to the Soviets even over America's principal and hard-pressed ally, Britain -- and even over US armed forces. As a result of the American aid program, 2,660 American ships were dispatched carrying over 16.5 million tons of war supplies. Between October 1, 1941 and May 31, 1945, the US delivered to Russia 427,284 trucks, 13,303 tanks, 11,400 aircraft, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 jeeps, 2.5 million gallons of avaiation and vehicle fuel, 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 diesel engines, and over 11,000 rail cars of various types. All the rail stock had to be specially built to conform to Russian wide-gauge rail standards, which differed from the US and Europe gauge.


On top of this, there were 1.75 million tons of foodstuffs, 2,328 artillery vehicles, millions of boots and shoes, and unnumbered millions of tons of steel, iron, mineral ores, chemicals, medicines, and gunpowder. The total value of US deliveries to Russia during WWII exceeded $11 billion. Worth over $179 billion in today's currency.


Long after the war, in 1963-66, the Soviet Union's greatest general and chief of the General Staff, Marshall Georgi Zhukov, candidly admitted that American aid was critical to the Soviet Union being able to continue the war in 1941-42:
"Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American `Studebekkers' (trucks) we could have towed our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided our front transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries.
[...]
"We entered war while still continuing to be a backward country in an industrial sense in comparison with Germany.... It is now said that the Allies never helped us. However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war. We had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us! We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."
And during all this time that America was providing massive assistance to the Soviet Union, it was also supplying massive assistance to Britain, the Free Dutch, and the Free French, and China. And all while simultaneously supplying its own forces -- and not just in the European theater, but in the the Pacific theater, where US forces bore the brunt of at least 80% of the war against Imperial Japan. There was no other economy in the world at the time that could have accomplished this. Only the United States.

 

[Ike]

USA destroyed the whole German air military fleet. They destroyed also all the military German fabrics. Without the intervention of USA, the soviet union could disappear and lost the war. What was the Normandy according to you? The Americans arrived first to Germany, but they stopped just to the west Germany because of the deal with Stalin. Indeed, USA saved the Russians.
Churchill said, we shouldn't stop till we get to Moscow. Unfortunately USA disagreed with him.

That says everything about you and your agenda here. No point talking anymore.




@Angela

Angela, I already know all of that. I know how people lived in all three blocks and I know why.

 

[Angela]

That says everything about you and your agenda here. No point talking anymore.




@Angela

Angela, I already know all of that. I know how people lived in all three blocks and I know why.

Look, the biggest mistake the U.S. made was to not listen to Patton and to allow the Russians to advance. American naivete again, and the fact that Roosevelt left things in disarray because he was sick and dying. East Europeans paid for it. I know it's not their fault.

What's upsetting is that you and people who think like you have embraced your oppressors and are hugging your chains.

Just look at the difference there was between West Germany and East Germany.

It makes absolutely no rational sense.

 

[Piro Ilir]

That says everything about you and your agenda here. No point talking anymore.




@Angela

Angela, I already know all of that. I know how people lived in all three blocks and I know why.

What is my agenda? Could you elaborate more, or you can't? Being against the axis of evil is now wrong?

 

[Piro Ilir]

Look, the biggest mistake the U.S. made was to not listen to Patton and to allow the Russians to advance. American naivete again, and the fact that Roosevelt left things in disarray because he was sick and dying. East Europeans paid for it. I know it's not their fault.

What's upsetting is that you and people who think like you have embraced your oppressors and are hugging your chains.

Just look at the difference there was between West Germany and East Germany.

It makes absolutely no rational sense.

The most evil and worst thing that the communists did, was the brainwashing of their country. Yugoslavia was lucky. Tito broke the alliance and the good relations with Stalin too early.
You were lucky that the Americans landed in south Italy. I wish they already do it in Balkans.
Whether Greece and Italy were saved by USA- Britain army from the communists.

 

[Yetos]

Look, the biggest mistake the U.S. made was to not listen to Patton and to allow the Russians to advance. American naivete again, and the fact that Roosevelt left things in disarray because he was sick and dying. East Europeans paid for it. I know it's not their fault.

What's upsetting is that you and people who think like you have embraced your oppressors and are hugging your chains.

Just look at the difference there was between West Germany and East Germany.

It makes absolutely no rational sense.

partially I agree,

may I remind you Greece and Yugoslavia at Yalta meeting
Stalin gave 50-50 Yugoslavia and 60-40 Greece meaning Yugoslavia to Nato and Greece at the Warsaw pact
Roosevelt agreed and W Churchill call him mad,
Winston knew about the Blent treaty coming,
and send Scombi with the 30 000 Indians, at Athens
civil war in Greece,
the only who could politically stand against Hitler or Stalin was Churchill
de Gaulle was weak, very weak with almost zero miltary production,
and Roosevelt was a looser as many other puppet presidents,
only his wife had some strength,
Yalta is considered by Greeks a hoax, cause both Greece and Yugoslavia should take part as winners,
it should be a 6 country meeting not a 4.

 

[Ike]

Look, the biggest mistake the U.S. made was to not listen to Patton and to allow the Russians to advance. American naivete again, and the fact that Roosevelt left things in disarray because he was sick and dying. East Europeans paid for it. I know it's not their fault.

What's upsetting is that you and people who think like you have embraced your oppressors and are hugging your chains.

Just look at the difference there was between West Germany and East Germany.

It makes absolutely no rational sense.

I'd rather live poor and free, than be loaded in some satanic-nazi state. If that's the way you like your life, it's fine with me, but don't expect me to join.
You can exercise your material perversions and think you're happy, also fine with me, but I would live in your country even if Obama personally sent me a green-card with a guaranteed $8000 social help monthly check. In fact I'm ready to give my life, just to save a single space on this Earth not to become like the place you live in.

It is extremely upsetting for me that you're not satisfied with the millions of square kilometers you already control, and where you can gather people like-minded from all over the world, but you feel the urge to destroy every little entity that doesn't think exactly like you. Spreading like a cancer, absolute socio-cultural totalitarity, no tolerance towards unlikeness, even willing to send your men to die here to make it happen. It reminds me of something that happened in central Europe in the thirties.

The most evil and worst thing that the communists did, was the brainwashing of their country. Yugoslavia was lucky. Tito broke the alliance and the good relations with Stalin too early.
You were lucky that the Americans landed in south Italy. I wish they already do it in Balkans.
Whether Greece and Italy were saved by USA- Britain army from the communists.

Well, as 15 years ago, I hope we'll be ready to greet them with a lots of ammo. Too bad they didn't have the guts to send their troops on Yugoslavia, they just bombed with depleted uranium from 10 km above until that miserable Serbian president collapsed under their pressure. I'm already thinking about moving more out of their interest zone. They really know how to make one's life gloomy.

 

[Angela]

I'd rather live poor and free, than be loaded in some satanic-nazi state. If that's the way you like your life, it's fine with me, but don't expect me to join. You can exercise your material perversions and think you're happy, also fine with me, but I would live in your country even if Obama personally sent me a green-card with a guaranteed $8000 social help monthly check. In fact I'm ready to give my life, just to save a single space on this Earth not to become like the place you live in. It is extremely upsetting for me that you're not satisfied with the millions of square kilometers you already control, and where you can gather people like-minded from all over the world, but you feel the urge to destroy every little entity that doesn't think exactly like you. Spreading like a cancer, absolute socio-cultural totalitarity, no tolerance towards unlikeness, even willing to send your men to die here to make it happen. It reminds me of something that happened in central Europe in the thirties..

How on earth do you measure freedom? How do you define it? I have the freedom to express any political opinion, racial opinion, or religious opinion I choose, even the most controversial, and the government can't interfere, so long as I don't advocate any one's injury or death. I have the freedom to read anything, published anywhere, advocating any point of view whatsoever. I have the freedom to vote for anyone I choose, and I also have the freedom to become involved in the political process and advocate for my political beliefs, even if that takes the form of advocating for extreme socialism/communism or promoting extreme right wing political beliefs. I have the freedom to believe in God or not believe in God, and to worship in any way I see fit, so long as I don't hurt other people. I have the freedom to marry anyone I choose. I have the freedom to have children or not have them, as I like, because I have access to birth control. I also have the freedom to have as many children as I choose. I have the freedom, subject to checks to insure my sanity and that I don't have a criminal record, to have a hunting gun, or, if I work in a dangerous profession, to carry a gun for my protection.

How many of those freedoms did you have in this "Golden Age" for which you're so nostalgic?

Why do you make this all about the "rich" west and the "poor" east? Of course part of the reason for America's wealth is her abundance of natural resources...flat, fertile land, oil, gas, coal, timber, a large population. No one has to explain to me, an Italian, how difficult it is to accumulate wealth without it. We've been living off "added value" since the end of the Roman Empire, at least the north has...The fact that certain countries in Europe are less blessed in that way isn't anyone's fault, certainly not that of the U.S. (Plus, where on earth do you get this idea that all Americans are filthy rich? The VAST majority of Americans don't live like the Kardashians! You really have to stop watching so much exported American media. That isn't the average. Most people have to budget and use coupons, and a lot work two jobs, not one.)

Yet, abundant resources and a large population aren't enough.Political and economic systems matter. For goodness sakes just look at the Soviet Union. Huge territory, miles of fertile flatlands, abundant mineral resources, a large population. What on earth did they do with it? Squandered it, that's what, because of an ideology that never worked and can't work. Collectivization was a huge flop. Killing all the "kulaks" just killed all the productive farmers.The Soviet Union couldn't feed itself. Its people had to stand in line for everything, even bread. Things were so bad that it was virtually stealing food from the eastern bloc countries. Was that America's fault too?

The factories were also a mess, producing sub par products that not even their own people wanted to use. The idea that anyone else in the world would want to buy them is ridiculous. Do you remember those ludicrous cars that East Germany was producing? Whose fault was it other than that of their own system that they couldn't design and build a decent car? I dealt with some of these people, and I can tell you categorically that economic decision making by political committee doesn't work and central planning doesn't work; giving people the freedom to use their intelligence and creativity for their own benefit will , instead, create a decent lifestyle for everyone.

The bottom line is that people are not going to put in a lot of effort when the lazy sob next to them, who is going to get the same pay, is doing nothing. That's just human nature; you can't fight it, you have to work with it. Look at the China...it's still totalitarian in terms of most things, but the economy is becoming more and more "capitalistic". Very pragmatic, the Chinese.

Anyway, how does it help capitalist countries if your country is poor? If you're poor, you can't buy anything that anyone else is selling. It isn't good for business. Sometimes it seems to me that simple economic theory isn't taught in Europe (or, increasingly, here), or at least not in the former Communist Bloc. America NEEDS you to be prosperous, because then you BUY things...it's about Markets. It's been about trade and markets since the late Neolithic at least for goodness sakes. What do you want to do, go back to subsistence farming on your own little plot, or live in a cave, or a yurt, dress in animal skins, and eat deer, fish and berries, like all the men involved with this hobby who've read too much Jean Jacques Rousseau? For myself, no thank you. And they say women are romantics!

To return to the America (and perhaps the west in general) that you seem to hate so much, given our economic system, I have the freedom, if I have just average intelligence and some minimal training for the modern business environment, to get a decent job paying a decent, living wage to support myself and my family. I'm not talking mega wealth here. That's beyond the reach of most people. (Nor does it bring happiness from what I've seen.) Of course, I can't be an alcoholic, or high on drugs all the time (both because it eats up money and means you aren't at your best when you're working or taking care of your family), and, as a woman, I shouldn't be having children without a husband or stable partner to contribute to expenses and child care. (Nor should I be having seven kids, either. Who can support a huge family anymore now that you can't just toss them into the fields?)

I also have the freedom, as an immigrant, to teach my children my native language, the history and culture of my ancestral people, and those values specific to it that might not be as emphasized here, and I have freedom FROM the fratricidal rivalries of your part of the world, and wars on my own soil.

Heck, if wanted to put pure "communism" into practice, I could even form a commune somewhere with like minded people and give it a go, or go back to the farming life of a prior era like the Amish.

What freedoms would your system provide that I don't have?

Is the freedom you're talking about the freedom to not have to live with people who worship a different god than you do, or speak a different language than you do, or, God forbid, belong to an ethnic group different from your own whose ancestors killed one of your ancestors or did some dastardly thing to them FIVE HUNDRED years ago?

That's not freedom, in my book, that's extreme tribalism or parochialism.

 

[Angela]

The most evil and worst thing that the communists did, was the brainwashing of their country. Yugoslavia was lucky. Tito broke the alliance and the good relations with Stalin too early.
You were lucky that the Americans landed in south Italy. I wish they already do it in Balkans.
Whether Greece and Italy were saved by USA- Britain army from the communists.

I'm glad that Italy didn't turn communist, but it has to be said that the Communists, Socialists, Anarchists, etc. formed the larger part of the partisan movement that attacked the Nazis and helped pave the way for the Brits and the Americans.

However, the whole Italian campaign was, in my opinion, mismanaged. The American commander was terrible (contemporaneous reports by American war correspondents attached to his command make it clear, however much a lot of it has since been white washed), and the British one wasn't much better. It was their decisions (and the stupidity and cowardice of the King and his Council) that gave the Germans the opportunity to swoop in, rescue Mussolini, and set up the Salo Fascist government, paving the way for the German occupation (which became a disaster for Italian Jews even more so than for the rest of the Italian population), a protracted virtual civil war in Italy, and the mass destruction of Italian cities and infrastructure. The only reason our historic cities survived is because some German commanders with a conscience refused to carry out Hitler's orders to dynamite them during the retreat.

This isn't a thread on Italian history during WW11, so I won't wax prolific. There are many, many books on the subject. A really good English language one is called: The Battle for Rome: The Germans, The Allies, The Partisans, and the Pope-September 1943-June 1944, by Robert Katz.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1056101.The_Battle_for_Rome

I disagree with him in a few areas, one being that I don't think that the partisan attack on the Via Rasella (and this applied to many partisan attacks) served any real strategic purpose, merely leading to the reprisal, massacre, really, at the Adreatina Caves. However, it presents the whole period from the initial landings in the south to the occupation of Rome in a very comprehensive and yet very readable format.

 

[Vallicanus]

How on earth do you measure freedom? How do you define it? I have the freedom to express any political opinion, racial opinion, or religious opinion I choose, even the most controversial, and the government can't interfere, so long as I don't advocate any one's injury or death. I have the freedom to read anything, published anywhere, advocating any point of view whatsoever. I have the freedom to vote for anyone I choose, and I also have the freedom to become involved in the political process and advocate for my political beliefs, even if that takes the form of advocating for extreme socialism/communism or promoting extreme right wing political beliefs.

The USA is indeed blessed, compared to the politically correct United Kingdom even under the Tories (who are supposed to be centre-right in political orientation).

 

[Angela]

The USA is indeed blessed, compared to the politically correct United Kingdom even under the Tories (who are supposed to be centre-right in political orientation).

I'm not aware that the UK prevents people from espousing idiotic ideas, not even idiotic racist ones.

It's my personal belief that when a society allows ridiculous, stupid ideas to be debated in the public square it almost always results in their loss of appeal, so long as the citizenry is an intelligent and reasonably educated one. If you totally shut these people down, you make martyrs of them.

Of course, no country should allow sedition or violence, or the advocacy of behavior that takes rights away from others, either.

 

[Ike]

How on earth do you measure freedom? How do you define it?

To live my life as a normal human being.

I have the freedom to express any political opinion, racial opinion, or religious opinion I choose, even the most controversial, and the government can't interfere, so long as I don't advocate any one's injury or death. I have the freedom to read anything, published anywhere, advocating any point of view whatsoever. I have the freedom to vote for anyone I choose, and I also have the freedom to become involved in the political process and advocate for my political beliefs, even if that takes the form of advocating for extreme socialism/communism or promoting extreme right wing political beliefs. I have the freedom to believe in God or not believe in God, and to worship in any way I see fit, so long as I don't hurt other people. I have the freedom to marry anyone I choose. I have the freedom to have children or not have them, as I like, because I have access to birth control. I also have the freedom to have as many children as I choose. I have the freedom, subject to checks to insure my sanity and that I don't have a criminal record, to have a hunting gun, or, if I work in a dangerous profession, to carry a gun for my protection.

Here? Every single one of them.

How many of those freedoms did you have in this "Golden Age" for which you're so nostalgic?

Where the hell did you hear it was the "golden age " of anything? It wasn't the best times, there was much to be improved but they were still better than where you are, and where you want to drag us.

Why do you make this all about the "rich" west and the "poor" east?

I don't. I consider West to be fundamentally poor. You have everything except for what is really important.

Of course part of the reason for America's wealth is her abundance of natural resources...flat, fertile land, oil, gas, coal, timber, a large population. No one has to explain to me, an Italian, how difficult it is to accumulate wealth without it. We've been living off "added value" since the end of the Roman Empire, at least the north has...The fact that certain countries in Europe are less blessed in that way isn't anyone's fault, certainly not that of the U.S. (Plus, where on earth do you get this idea that all Americans are filthy rich? The VAST majority of Americans don't live like the Kardashians! You really have to stop watching so much exported American media. That isn't the average. Most people have to budget and use coupons, and a lot work two jobs, not one.)

I don't think they are all filthy rich. They are rich if you compare average pay, GDP, xxx, and other economic 2-3 letter parameters ...

Yet, abundant resources and a large population aren't enough.Political and economic systems matter. For goodness sakes just look at the Soviet Union. Huge territory, miles of fertile flatlands, abundant mineral resources, a large population. What on earth did they do with it? Squandered it, that's what, because of an ideology that never worked and can't work. Collectivization was a huge flop. Killing all the "kulaks" just killed all the productive farmers.The Soviet Union couldn't feed itself. Its people had to stand in line for everything, even bread. Things were so bad that it was virtually stealing food from the eastern bloc countries. Was that America's fault too?

While Russians fought against Muslims, Ottomans, England, France and others, Americans were cleansing the America from real Americans. While communists were killing Russian emperor, US was making good money out of European war, while Hitler was killing millions of Russians and left a scorched patch in Russia, size ~third the US, Americans were selling weapons to both of them, etc. It is just stupid to make such a simple comparisons, so I wouldn't go into it. That could be a separate thread for itself, and I don't think it could even be resolved.

The factories were also a mess, producing sub par products that not even their own people wanted to use. The idea that anyone else in the world would want to buy them is ridiculous. Do you remember those ludicrous cars that East Germany was producing? Whose fault was it other than that of their own system that they couldn't design and build a decent car? I dealt with some of these people, and I can tell you categorically that economic decision making by political committee doesn't work and central planning doesn't work; giving people the freedom to use their intelligence and creativity for their own benefit will , instead, create a decent lifestyle for everyone.

If you want to work for what you think is your benefit it's fine by me. But I don't watch TV, and I am not programmed to think those are for my benefits.

The bottom line is that people are not going to put in a lot of effort when the lazy sob next to them, who is going to get the same pay, is doing nothing. That's just human nature; you can't fight it, you have to work with it. Look at the China...it's still totalitarian in terms of most things, but the economy is becoming more and more "capitalistic". Very pragmatic, the Chinese.

Where did you hear me advocating these conditions? Why are you making this a false dilemma, like the US version of capitalism is the only other choice

Anyway, how does it help capitalist countries if your country is poor? If you're poor, you can't buy anything that anyone else is selling. It isn't good for business.

Exactly. I don't want to buy anything you sell, and you want me to buy. I don't want to be "rich" with paper, and you want to convince me with guns Why? Why is it so important for you to make others rich, even to the point to bomb a country, kill me and other people?

Sometimes it seems to me that simple economic theory isn't taught in Europe (or, increasingly, here), or at least not in the former Communist Bloc. America NEEDS you to be prosperous, because then you BUY things...it's about Markets. It's been about trade and markets since the late Neolithic at least for goodness sakes. What do you want to do, go back to subsistence farming on your own little plot, or live in a cave, or a yurt, dress in animal skins, and eat deer, fish and berries, like all the men involved with this hobby who've read too much Jean Jacques Rousseau? For myself, no thank you. And they say women are romantics!

Again false dilemma. It's Nintendo Wii or a cave life

To return to the America (and perhaps the west in general) that you seem to hate so much, given our economic system, I have the freedom, if I have just average intelligence and some minimal training for the modern business environment, to get a decent job paying a decent, living wage to support myself and my family. I'm not talking mega wealth here. That's beyond the reach of most people. (Nor does it bring happiness from what I've seen.) Of course, I can't be an alcoholic, or high on drugs all the time (both because it eats up money and means you aren't at your best when you're working or taking care of your family), and, as a woman, I shouldn't be having children without a husband or stable partner to contribute to expenses and child care. (Nor should I be having seven kids, either. Who can support a huge family anymore now that you can't just toss them into the fields?)

Yes, West in general. Keep your economic system for yourself if it's so good.

I also have the freedom, as an immigrant, to teach my children my native language, the history and culture of my ancestral people, and those values specific to it that might not be as emphasized here, and I have freedom FROM the fratricidal rivalries of your part of the world, and wars on my own soil.

Heck, if wanted to put pure "communism" into practice, I could even form a commune somewhere with like minded people and give it a go, or go back to the farming life of a prior era like the Amish.

What freedoms would your system provide that I don't have?

A chance for a person to take care of his mental and spiritual health. You've ever heard that almost everyone here who've been to US say that Americans are crazy?

Is the freedom you're talking about the freedom to not have to live with people who worship a different god than you do, or speak a different language than you do, or, God forbid, belong to an ethnic group different from your own whose ancestors killed one of your ancestors or did some dastardly thing to them FIVE HUNDRED years ago?

And 200 years ago, and 190 years ago, and 140 years ago, and 105 years ago, and 100 years ago, and 65 years ago, and 25 years ago... In a neverending circle, where people here get killed, and your country makes money and controls more governments and area.

That's not freedom, in my book, that's extreme tribalism or parochialism.

Yes, I see you've chosen to get out of it. It is sometimes really hard to always be the victim of a bully that pretends he is a nice person. It's easier if you join them. I don't blame you for that part, but for wanting me to switch sides.

 

[Angela]

Do you think anyone believes that Yugoslavians under Tito had all those "western" freedoms? Anyone who ever set foot there or ever spoke to people who lived there at that time knows it isn't true.

As for immigrants to the U.S., who on earth, after somehow getting here, would want to go back to Serbia and reinstate and live under the old system? I sure don't know any Croatians ( and I know a lot of them) or Albanians here who are pining for the good old days under Communism. Nor Romanians, nor Poles, nor any other people from the Eastern Bloc. I do think the Russians are suffering from nostalgia. They liked thinking that they were a world power. Actually, they were a second world country with nukes and a big military, in my opinion. That was about it.

Well, I guess if someone used to be an apparatchik with all those privileges while the majority of the people did without, or maybe used to be a man who liked being part of a Serbian paramilitary unit "ethnically cleansing" areas of Croatians, and Albanians and Bosnians, then perhaps living here or Britain or some other civilized place, and actually having to work hard for a living, and having to treat people of other ethnic groups with respect would not be very attractive.

I guess it's true what they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink. So, stubbornly refuse to drink if that's what you think your loyalty to Serbia requires of you; I just hope you don't convince too many of your countrymen to follow your path back to the past, because that way lies not just second world status but third world status.

Oh, and I would advise that you stop reading Russian textbooks. They're about as truthful as the personnel in an eastern bloc plane I was in years ago. There were no drop down oxygen masks. When we asked why they told us it was because their airplanes were so well engineered that they never crashed. Enough said.

Anyway, I'm out. There's no "profit" in debating with ideologues.

 

[Piro Ilir]

partially I agree,

may I remind you Greece and Yugoslavia at Yalta meeting
Stalin gave 50-50 Yugoslavia and 60-40 Greece meaning Yugoslavia to Nato and Greece at the Warsaw pact
Roosevelt agreed and W Churchill call him mad,
Winston knew about the Blent treaty coming,
and send Scombi with the 30 000 Indians, at Athens
civil war in Greece,
the only who could politically stand against Hitler or Stalin was Churchill
de Gaulle was weak, very weak with almost zero miltary production,
and Roosevelt was a looser as many other puppet presidents,
only his wife had some strength,
Yalta is considered by Greeks a hoax, cause both Greece and Yugoslavia should take part as winners,
it should be a 6 country meeting not a 4.

Yalta was not four states deal, but three states deal. USA, Soviet union and USA. Greece and Yugoslavia participating in Yalta! [emoji23] what are you talking about. Indeed Greece was neither a real state at that time.[emoji23] .

[emoji562]

 

[Piro Ilir]

I'd rather live poor and free, than be loaded in some satanic-nazi state. If that's the way you like your life, it's fine with me, but don't expect me to join.
You can exercise your material perversions and think you're happy, also fine with me, but I would live in your country even if Obama personally sent me a green-card with a guaranteed $8000 social help monthly check. In fact I'm ready to give my life, just to save a single space on this Earth not to become like the place you live in.

It is extremely upsetting for me that you're not satisfied with the millions of square kilometers you already control, and where you can gather people like-minded from all over the world, but you feel the urge to destroy every little entity that doesn't think exactly like you. Spreading like a cancer, absolute socio-cultural totalitarity, no tolerance towards unlikeness, even willing to send your men to die here to make it happen. It reminds me of something that happened in central Europe in the thirties.




Well, as 15 years ago, I hope we'll be ready to greet them with a lots of ammo. Too bad they didn't have the guts to send their troops on Yugoslavia, they just bombed with depleted uranium from 10 km above until that miserable Serbian president collapsed under their pressure. I'm already thinking about moving more out of their interest zone. They really know how to make one's life gloomy.

I recommend you to live in Russia. Living there you would cleanse your ideas. We don't want new walls within the Balkans.

 

[Piro Ilir]

Ike
USA never bombed any country without a right reason. So stop repeating that all the time.

 

[Ike]

Do you think anyone believes that Yugoslavians under Tito had all those "western" freedoms? Anyone who ever set foot there or ever spoke to people who lived there at that time knows it isn't true.

I've never said that we had Western freedoms. We've had different and sometimes even bigger freedoms. The problem is that you have your realm of what you think is important, and you measure my freedom according to your gauge. Likewise a man could come from Sharia country into US, and say that there are no freedoms there because he can't marry 5 females.

As for immigrants to the U.S., who on earth, after somehow getting here, would want to go back to Serbia and reinstate and live under the old system? I sure don't know any Croatians ( and I know a lot of them) or Albanians here who are pining for the good old days under Communism. Nor Romanians, nor Poles, nor any other people from the Eastern Bloc. I do think the Russians are suffering from nostalgia. They liked thinking that they were a world power. Actually, they were a second world country with nukes and a big military, in my opinion. That was about it.

Yugoslavia is currently an occupied country. Who on Earth would come here in 1942? People escaped the war you organized. Croatia and Serbia don't even exist by the book - they have no sovereignty.

Well, I guess if someone used to be an apparatchik with all those privileges while the majority of the people did without, or maybe used to be a man who liked being part of a Serbian paramilitary unit "ethnically cleansing" areas of Croatians, and Albanians and Bosnians, then perhaps living here or Britain or some other civilized place, and actually having to work hard for a living, and having to treat people of other ethnic groups with respect would not be very attractive.

In fact it is totally opposite in theory. Western societies function on strong gap between upper and lower classes, while communism is promoting what is called uravnilovka. You know that very well, you ranted against it in previous post. Anyhow, you're making this like people here don't want to work. They want to work, but not for you and your wealth.

I guess it's true what they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force him to drink. So, stubbornly refuse to drink if that's what you think your loyalty to Serbia requires of you; I just hope you don't convince too many of your countrymen to follow your path back to the past, because that way lies not just second world status but third world status.

Serbia requires nothing of me. I'm not even Serbian. I'm here just because this is one of the strong anti-nazi posts in Europe.

Oh, and I would advise that you stop reading Russian textbooks. They're about as truthful as the personnel in an eastern bloc plane I was in years ago. There were no drop down oxygen masks. When we asked why they told us it was because their airplanes were so well engineered that they never crashed. Enough said.

I've never in my life read a single Russian textbook. I don't even speak Russian.

Anyway, I'm out. There's no "profit" in debating with ideologues.

I would be glad if you and your NATO countryman were really out of here. Just simply out with their ideology, advises, weapons, laws, partitions, warmongering, crazy political ideas, embassies...

 

[Ike]

I recommend you to live in Russia. Living there you would cleanse your ideas. We don't want new walls within the Balkans.

I want. A wall towards you. I don't like you, and I don't want you anywhere near.
And I know why you don't want. So that you could infiltrate more Muslim terrorists here.

Ike
USA never bombed any country without a right reason. So stop repeating that all the time.

If the right reason is to think exactly like them, and do exactly what USians tell them to do, than I agree with you. Poor American workers had to produce so much napalm and Agent Orange just to convince people they would be better if they do what is told.

 

[Yetos]

Yalta was not four states deal, but three states deal. USA, Soviet union and USA. Greece and Yugoslavia participating in Yalta! [emoji23] what are you talking about. Indeed Greece was neither a real state at that time.[emoji23] .

[emoji562]

I am not wait something correct from b....la,
Greece belongs to the winners countries of WW2 which army and King did not surrender but travel to Egypt EL Alamein,
Greece and France are considered same level winners that lost the land but did not surrender
Greece is the only country fought against 4 countries of Axis Italy Germany Bulgaria Albania, and also at Egypt Italy and Deutshland
the first victory of Allies was not done British, neither France neither Russia Neither USA,
it was done by Greeks.

and big powers USSR and USA rewards us with civil war and dictatorship