All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago

[Olympus Mons]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/24099.pdf

The advantages of knowing and not looking at this issues as a playstation next leverl.... is the context.
The reason why It did not have walls it because it did not need it!
for instance Porto torrão had no walls. but the whole guadiana river, where "enemies" could pass was guarded by the he Triangle of Light (Porto das Carretas, Mercador, Moinho de Valadares)...and this places (as Paraiso) were erected by 3300bc and all the way were walled and full of arrows points.
Read the link i add and also read this chapter of mine: https://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/chapter-iv-the-oestrimni-5393


_____________________

 

[CrazyDonkey]

You're counting ditched enclosures as defining "settlement", when it is primarily graves and tombs that are enclosed. No walls/fortifications at Valencina de la Concepción make it difficult to determine the settlement area at any one time. Size of an enclosed area (including graves and tombs) does not equal population size.

One theory is that the southern/eastern settlements were commercial entrepots, founded by Aegean colonists, focused on mining, working, and exporting copper. Slaves likely worked the mines, and possibly the fields as well.

 

[hrvclv]

Unetice is younger than Western Beakers. I personally see Unetice as Beaker men + some Corded Ware cuties

That's where we differ... I see Beakers as Unetice-like men + local cuties.

L11 (more probably L11+) settled in Bohemia/Poland. Some of then remained there and over time developed into the Unetice culture.

Those L11+ people thought in terms of "clan" - the extended family, something like the Roman gens. As the organization was strongly patriarchal, each clan probably had a distinct territory of their own, as well as a distinct forefather of their own. So I guess U106 clans and P312 clans, though neighbors of common extraction, originally sharing the same language, kept themselves to themselves.

U106 clans moved north little by little, mixed with CW first, then with I1 people their advance had pushed ahead. This resulted in Proto-Germanic, i.e PIE altered by local phonological traits and lexical additions.

P312 moved west, mixing with LBK-type people. I think L21 clans moved early, and retained their PIE kw- sound. There must have been a series of raids towards the southwest first, which would explain the low, but fairly homogeneous distribution of L21 all over today's France (Brittany not included) and Iberia (notably the north-west). Maybe DF27 followed - simultaneously or shortly afterwards. They kept in touch with the people they had left behind, and traded with them. Along those trading routes the beaker package spread quickly. The (surviving) natives may have taken advantage of the new opportunities, hence the Beaker samples identified as "southwestern" in southern Germany. Then, from what is now the Rhineland or Benelux, L21 massively and aggressively moved to Britain, bringing along both the 'steppe' and 'beaker' packages.

Those P312+ clans were violent, but not all equally numerous. They mixed abundantly with local women. The y-dna was altered, the autosomal mix was far less impacted. The Lusitanians retained their Proto-Italo-Cletic language. The Ligures mixed theirs with local non-IE languages. The Basques lost theirs.

Meanwhile, U152 stayed north of the Alps, mixing with locals in just the same way. It's easy enough to imagine an east-west linguistic gradient, with the west shifting away from the original as admixture intensified. Somewhere in Austria, tribes kept their kw- sound. In due time, they'd move to Italy and speak Latin. Further to the west, with more local admixture, the P shift occurred, probably because the local people couldn't manage the kw- (and because that kw- seems to have been fairly unstable anyway). The ancestors of the Osco-Umbrians may have lived there, with a language akin to latin, but affected by the sound shift. Further west: the P Celts that would later descend on Gaul and Northern Italy.

These are convictions, not certainties. No-one need agree. I know Ygorcs, for one, will contend that my glottochronology doesn't hold water. Well... alternative scenarios are most welcome. Feel free to criticize and amend.

 

[hrvclv]

I appreciate your posts as a whole - here I learn something. Have you some new results for Y-DNA among Unetice? I lack a lot.
Can you not change wife? Or learn martial arts? LOL

Thanks for the comment. Much appreciated. Not everyone agrees with you on that, I guess. But "you can't please everyone and your father", as the saying goes. (As for my wife, well, I posted this in the classified ads recently: "Echange femme de 60 ans contre deux de trente". I didn't get any answer, and my wife said I was overevaluating my potential. What potential she was referring to I'd rather not know!). Kenavo, Brittany.

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Among the main conclusions that are highlighted by the experts is that the oldest parts of the site [Valencina de la Concepción], which date from the 32nd century BCE, were funerary in nature, specifically hypogeum cavities that were used for collective sequential burials (for example, this is the case with the hypogea that were found in La Huera, Castilleja de Guzmán, and in Calle Dinamarca, Valencina).

“This data is important in the debate about the nature of this great site during its long history, as it is clear that funerary practices had a determining importance in its genesis”, comments the University of Seville Professor of Prehistory Leonardo García Sanjuán.

After what seems like a long period in the reduction of activity in the 27th century BCE, the tholos of La Pastora was probably built, with very different architectural characteristics: without great slabs of slate, but with a roofed chamber with a false stone dome, an important technical and aesthetic innovation, and with a “heretical” orientation towards the south east, facing away from the sunrise. “It is very probable that these changes in the monumental architecture were due to were due to changes in the social and ideological sphere, including, perhaps, religious “heterodoxies”, the researcher adds.

New "masters"? Central European R1b Bell Beakers?

Thirdly, the experts have shown the end of the occupation of this part of the province of Seville happened between the 24th and 23rd centuries BCE, despite evidence of it being frequented and used in the Bronze Age (c. 2200-850 BCE). “In fact, the abandonment of the site seems rather abrupt, without a gradual transition towards a different social model. The possibility that the end of the Valencina settlement was due to a social crisis has been hinted at by the dates obtained from several human skulls separated from the rest of the skeletons in a pit in a Calle Trabajadores in Valencina”, states the director of the research group.

According to the data obtained from the radiocarbon dating, all these individuals almost died at the same time, which opens the possibility of a violent episode (killing, crime or sacrifice). The fact that several of the skulls were treated in a ritual manner, showing marks of having had the flesh removed and that this ‘special’ mortuary deposit appears to be associated with the greatest collection of pottery beakers found on the site, suggests that the episode had great symbolic significance.

The paleoenvironmental data for the Mediterranean and Europe indicate that between the 24th and 23rd centuries BCE, a period of greater aridity and dryness began globally, which could have had severe consequences for many of the planet’s societies, including droughts. At this time, the Iberian Peninsula saw the end of chalcolithic way of life and the abandonment of some of the most important sites with ditched enclosures, as now seems to be the case with Valencina de la Concepción. In broad strokes, this coincides with the end of the Old Kingdom in the Nile Valley, with a great crisis that brought about the end of the period of construction of the great pyramids.

https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/...-site-in-all-recent-iberian-prehistory/120856

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

That's where we differ... I see Beakers as Unetice-like men + local cuties.

L11 (more probably L11+) settled in Bohemia/Poland. Some of then remained there and over time developed into the Unetice culture.

Those L11+ people thought in terms of "clan" - the extended family, something like the Roman gens. As the organization was strongly patriarchal, each clan probably had a distinct territory of their own, as well as a distinct forefather of their own. So I guess U106 clans and P312 clans, though neighbors of common extraction, originally sharing the same language, kept themselves to themselves.

U106 clans moved north little by little, mixed with CW first, then with I1 people their advance had pushed ahead. This resulted in Proto-Germanic, i.e PIE altered by local phonological traits and lexical additions.

P312 moved west, mixing with LBK-type people. I think L21 clans moved early, and retained their PIE kw- sound. There must have been a series of raids towards the southwest first, which would explain the low, but fairly homogeneous distribution of L21 all over today's France (Brittany not included) and Iberia (notably the north-west). Maybe DF27 followed - simultaneously or shortly afterwards. They kept in touch with the people they had left behind, and traded with them. Along those trading routes the beaker package spread quickly. The (surviving) natives may have taken advantage of the new opportunities, hence the Beaker samples identified as "southwestern" in southern Germany. Then, from what is now the Rhineland or Benelux, L21 massively and aggressively moved to Britain, bringing along both the 'steppe' and 'beaker' packages.

Those P312+ clans were violent, but not all equally numerous. They mixed abundantly with local women. The y-dna was altered, the autosomal mix was far less impacted. The Lusitanians retained their Proto-Italo-Cletic language. The Ligures mixed theirs with local non-IE languages. The Basques lost theirs.

Meanwhile, U152 stayed north of the Alps, mixing with locals in just the same way. It's easy enough to imagine an east-west linguistic gradient, with the west shifting away from the original as admixture intensified. Somewhere in Austria, tribes kept their kw- sound. In due time, they'd move to Italy and speak Latin. Further to the west, with more local admixture, the P shift occurred, probably because the local people couldn't manage the kw- (and because that kw- seems to have been fairly unstable anyway). The ancestors of the Osco-Umbrians may have lived there, with a language akin to latin, but affected by the sound shift. Further west: the P Celts that would later descend on Gaul and Northern Italy.

These are convictions, not certainties. No-one need agree. I know Ygorcs, for one, will contend that my glottochronology doesn't hold water. Well... alternative scenarios are most welcome. Feel free to criticize and amend.

I see basically the same thing, only whereas you see the approach from the East, and the fanning out occurring in the region of East-Central Europe, I see the reverse (approach from the West (Iberia), fanning out occurring in the region of West-Central Europe (France)). I'm unsure about Unetice upon reflection - aren't the British Beakers from well before Unetice? If so, I don't know if Unetice can be truly attributed to spreading L151 around Europe. Do we know the Y DNA of Unetice? I'd guess U106 to be honest - it seems that U106 wandered away early from West-Central Europe (causing the P312-U106 split, also why Beakers are only P312), and that it also picked up more Corded Ware-like admixture (think about the kind of people that live in, say, Frisia vs in Ireland - what is the main physical differentiator?). Unetice seems a good candidate for that contact point of U106 with ze blondies.

 

[Ygorcs]

If they're correct, Iberian speakers were no different from the Indo-European speakers. So, maybe in some areas they were small in number and adopted the language of the "natives"? Seems odd if there was a near wipe out of the ylines, but the Basques are odd too; it's not "that" isolated an area.

That'd be an assumption hard to reconcile to with the fact that they say the non-IE Iron Age Iberians derived the bulk of their ancestry from the BA substratum, BUT that BA population derived ~40% of their ancestry from the BA steppe-related migrants. That's weird if the non-IE IA Iberians derived from a small number of Indo-Europeans who adopted the language of a large majority of non-IE natives. We'd expect them to be different from the other, Indo-Europeanized populations, which had supposedly experienced larger steppe-related immigration from Central/Central-Western Europe. That's strange. Also, I'll just presume that those "~40% BA Iberian" steppe-derived migrants were heavily diluted with native EEF people even as early as 2500 BCE (I find it so surprising that they say Indo-Europeans were in Iberia that early!). After all, we'd expect the steppe Yamnaya-like ancestry in modern Iberians to be higher if these were "pure-blooded" steppe people with relatively little admixture.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

That'd be an assumption hard to reconcile to with the fact that they say the non-IE Iron Age Iberians derived the bulk of their ancestry from the BA substratum, BUT that BA population derived ~40% of their ancestry from the BA steppe-related migrants. That's weird if the non-IE IA Iberians derived from a small number of Indo-Europeans who adopted the language of a large majority of non-IE natives. We'd expect them to be different from the other, Indo-Europeanized populations, which had supposedly experienced larger steppe-related immigration from Central/Central-Western Europe. That's strange. Also, I'll just presume that those "~40% BA Iberian" steppe-derived migrants were heavily diluted with native EEF people even as early as 2500 BCE (I find it so surprising that they say Indo-Europeans were in Iberia that early!). After all, we'd expect the steppe Yamnaya-like ancestry in modern Iberians to be higher if these were "pure-blooded" steppe people with relatively little admixture.

Yeah, I reacted the same way - for the Yamnaya hypothesis it is surprisingly early. Not impossibly early, mind you, but still surprising.

But all the cool kids don't believe in Yamnaya for L51 anymore.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

First part of email exchange (may post second part later):

https://pastebin.com/g27AhCgk

 

[berun]

for large Chalcolithic villages (some 30-120 ha) it is Marroquies Bajos

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marroquíes_Bajos

reminds the Tripolye villages in it's shape.

 

[JajarBingan]

All Iberian men were wiped out by Yamna men 4,500 years ago, according to David Reich.

https://www.iflscience.com/plants-a...by-the-arrival-of-a-new-tribe-4000-years-ago/

The original reference is newscientist, but it is under pay wall.

However, I believe that current Iberian populations do not have too much Yamna contribution. How is that?

1. Very few Yamna women went to Iberia, so even though all Iberian men were wiped out, women remained, and they gave their genes to their descendants
2. There were other peoples that arrived later to Iberia, and gave other genes

Are two possibilities. Which are the right ones?

... and just amazing the Yamna were able to completely wipe out all men in a big region. Violence? Diseases?

How ironic is it that this "tradition" was carried to the New World. Now expect a handful of Space Mexicans to wipe out a good part of Aliens in the future.

 

[bicicleur 2]

How ironic is it that this "tradition" was carried to the New World. Now expect a handful of Space Mexicans to wipe out a good part of Aliens in the future.

it's called overpopulation and survival of the fittest

 

[Ygorcs]

Yeah, I reacted the same way - for the Yamnaya hypothesis it is surprisingly early. Not impossibly early, mind you, but still surprising.

But all the cool kids don't believe in Yamnaya for L51 anymore.

Yet the cool kids still have to explain how the very same Proto-Indo-European language (dialects thereof) was clearly spread by R1b-Z2103 people (among other minor haplogroups too) from Yamnaya, R1a-M417 from CWC and earlier (most likely) Sredny Stog... and these R1b-L51 people that they say do not come from the Yamnaya horizon. It would've been the first and most surprising example of a "global language" in a time where there was no fully urban civilization and organized empires.

 

[Ygorcs]

It's more than that.

Small groups of migrating farmers can still decimate, if not wipe out, the different y line men they encounter. Look at the Bantus. For whatever reason, that didn't happen with the migration into Europe. It's just a fact.

It's different. Bantus were not just farmers, they had bronze and iron metallurgy, they had kingdom structures. I think Bantu farmers were more comparable to early Bronze Age peoples than to Neolithic farmers of Europe.

 

[Olympus Mons]

Yet the cool kids still have to explain how the very same Proto-Indo-European language (dialects thereof) was clearly spread by R1b-Z2103 people (among other minor haplogroups too) from Yamnaya, R1a-M417 from CWC and earlier (most likely) Sredny Stog... and these R1b-L51 people that they say do not come from the Yamnaya horizon. It would've been the first and most surprising example of a "global language" in a time where there was no fully urban civilization and organized empires.

AS if you know what language Yamnaya, or CWC or Sredny Stog spoke.
Apparently in iberia you had similarly autosomal R1b-l51, with ones speaking PIE and others 100 miles ways speaking something a keen of Iberian...
To me it looks like ever so more that linguistics are voodoo or astrology spreaders in the archeology and aDna environment .

 

[hrvclv]

To me it looks like ever so more that linguistics are voodoo or astrology spreaders in the archeology and aDna environment .

Disappointed that you can produce such a remark.

As early as the 1640s, Von Boxhom and Saumaise had a clear hunch that Sanskrit and Persian shared a common origin with European languages. By 1900, while archaeologists were still digging away, and long before population genetics were even conceived of, linguists had drafted a rough sketch of the migrations that would later be confirmed. Hardly any voodoo in that.

 

[Pygmalion]

@Olympus Mons What sort of roof did the towers of Zambujal have? Straw, wood, flat stones or tholos/corbel?

 

[berun]

AS if you know what language Yamnaya, or CWC or Sredny Stog spoke.
Apparently in iberia you had similarly autosomal R1b-l51, with ones speaking PIE and others 100 miles ways speaking something a keen of Iberian...
To me it looks like ever so more that linguistics are voodoo or astrology spreaders in the archeology and aDna environment .

I somehow understand them, without Yamnans or steppe... it would be a sort of horror vacui (even I can't deal with it so my bet is Kievan Rus area and R1a).

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yet the cool kids still have to explain how the very same Proto-Indo-European language (dialects thereof) was clearly spread by R1b-Z2103 people (among other minor haplogroups too) from Yamnaya, R1a-M417 from CWC and earlier (most likely) Sredny Stog... and these R1b-L51 people that they say do not come from the Yamnaya horizon. It would've been the first and most surprising example of a "global language" in a time where there was no fully urban civilization and organized empires.

Good point - I’ve thought about this before. The way I see it is that, either way, Z2103 and L51 split at the same period, and everyone here at least seems to assume this phylogenetic split was when Western IE broke away. If so, why does it matter whether or not that split took place on the Steppe, or if it took place in the Balkano-Asian region? It surely makes more sense that the split took place before Yamnaya at least, given the ages of Z2103 and L51. And an earlier split on the Steppe, well before Yamnaya, isn't very practical.

Alternatively, it could just be the case that Western IE is from Corded Ware - people see the question of why the Basque language is not IE given all that L51 as due to the mothers raising the children, so the same logic could apply to a L51-Corded Ware hybrid (blonde QTs raise the kids instead of their abusive ginger husbands).

Regardless, the Z2103 question should be enough to put the Yamnaya theory of L51 into extreme doubt. I'll say it again: Where did all the L51 come from, if Yamnaya and its cultural affiliations along the Danube all belonged to Z2103?

Also, why is this so surprising, if the Tocharians were in ******* China...

 

[Angela]

It's different. Bantus were not just farmers, they had bronze and iron metallurgy, they had kingdom structures. I think Bantu farmers were more comparable to early Bronze Age peoples than to Neolithic farmers of Europe.

You're right. That is a better comparison. As Bicicleur also pointed out, they had better weapons.

Was this the reason then, as Bicicleur maintained, that we don't see this wipe out of Mesolithic y lines when the Neolithic farmers came to Europe? From later evidence they certainly weren't averse to violence when resources were low. There's also that Mesolithic male genetically hunter sample from the Hungarian Neolithic where he was buried differently and with much less care, which might indicate a lower status.

Perhaps it's that they also had completely different economic strategies and so didn't compete enough?