'Albanian YDNA Project' 2020 analysis of J-PH1751 & 2018 Description of R-2705

[gjergj]

Bottle neck? So what, i dont get your point with bringing up a bottle neck. North albania is full of mountains and people still live in mountains today so it is possible that north albanians are more inbred which is why their y dna looks like "bottleneck expansion".
Also a lot of people died over the last 1500 years, including major diseases so the lines that survived expanded further. It is only ancient dna that can confirm when and where these lines came from.
If you want to question something you should question the elevated levels of i2a-din and j2a in south albania as these are clearly foreign.

How do you conclude that J2a is foreign in the albanian population?

All J2a that we have at Rrenjet, many of them high resolution test are all bronze age. No specific connection to greeks or italians for at least 3,000 ybp. even more in fact. so there is zero data that J2a is foreign.
Do you have any concrete data/evidence on what you are saying?

 

[TetaEglantina]

Hmm, "not quite? But close enough" ? That's not really scientific bro. What is a typical Western European line according to you? And when did it enter Europe?



My hypothesis is quite different. But first what are the facts that make you "believe" such hypothesis you put forward? Feel free to use any scientific paper, or ancient samples or even your own analysis of the YFULL tree.



Either way, with more scientific papers published I believe everything will be clear. In the meantime I am waiting.

So far this is what we know of the r1b tree, z2103 split very early from western r1b groups and is almost non existant in western europe today

http://mckeefamilyfromdonegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/03-R1b-phylogenetic-tree-feb212015.png

In terms of j2b no one has the answer and without a lot of ancient dna from the correct periods we cant say anything really

J2b l283 has been found quite often in italy, it could still have proto illyrian origin but

It seems to originate in sardinia so far (at least in terms of europe)
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ancient-dna-j2b-l283.png?x37279

https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/01/11/first-etruscan-settlement-sardinia/

 

[Archetype0ne]

So far this is what we know of the r1b tree, z2103 split very early from western r1b groups and is almost non existant in western europe today

http://mckeefamilyfromdonegal.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/03-R1b-phylogenetic-tree-feb212015.png

In terms of j2b no one has the answer and without a lot of ancient dna from the correct periods we cant say anything really

J2b l283 has been found quite often in italy, it could still have proto illyrian origin but

It seems to originate in sardinia so far (at least in terms of europe)
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/ancient-dna-j2b-l283.png?x37279

https://www.realmofhistory.com/2018/01/11/first-etruscan-settlement-sardinia/

Welp. Its not present in Wester Europe... But it seems to originate in Sardiana according to you. Isn't that a head scratcher? Where is the East-West divide in Europe, aka Central Europe and where is Sardinia.

PS: These Nuragics you refer too are not the first ones in Europe as you seem to think. Check out the Maros sample, and the Dalmatia sample.

We have ancient samples, dated along with their geographical locations. So you might wanna revise your idea on this sentence "j2b no one has the answer and without a lot of ancient dna from the correct periods we cant say anything really".

Also if YFull confused you with that Italian flag for ORC007, just know that they make mistakes too. And from what I gather its a low coverage low quality sample, for which they can not provide a reasoning why it is set as L283*. But as you said, one needs to be aware of the context, namely time and geographical location to notice these things.

 

[TetaEglantina]

How do you conclude that J2a is foreign in the albanian population?

All J2a that we have at Rrenjet, many of them high resolution test are all bronze age. No specific connection to greeks or italians for at least 3,000 ybp. even more in fact. so there is zero data that J2a is foreign.
Do you have any concrete data/evidence on what you are saying?

Are you sure you found not a single link to italy or greece? Do you know how much j2a is found in greece and south italy? There is a lot so maybe take a closer look. Otherwise, start looking at the middle east or maybe Bulgaria/Romania since they have some too

 

[TetaEglantina]

Welp. Its not present in Wester Europe... But it seems to originate in Sardiana according to you. Isn't that a head scratcher? Where is the East-West divide in Europe, aka Central Europe and where is Sardinia.

PS: These Nuragics you refer too are not the first ones in Europe as you seem to think. Check out the Maros sample, and the Dalmatia sample.

We have ancient samples, dated along with their geographical locations. So you might wanna revise your idea on this sentence "j2b no one has the answer and without a lot of ancient dna from the correct periods we cant say anything really".

Also if YFull confused you with that Italian flag for ORC007, just know that they make mistakes too. And from what I gather its a low coverage low quality sample, for which they can not provide a reasoning why it is set as L283*. But as you said, one needs to be aware of the context, namely time and geographical location to notice these things.

You are mixing up r1b z2103 with j2b l283 - z2103 is almost non existant in western europe whereas j2b is found more in italy.

Albanians today have 1% western european r1b, it is clear to understand that z2103 and western r1b came from opposite directions

 

[Archetype0ne]

You are mixing up r1b z2103 with j2b l283 - z2103 is almost non existant in western europe whereas j2b is found more in italy.

Albanians today have 1% western european r1b, it is clear to understand that z2103 and western r1b came from opposite directions

Oh right. Sorry. Confused your first sentence thinking you were talking about L283. But yes the other points regarding L283 still stand and you might wanna address with yourself. It would take me some time to find a post of mine from long ago listing time, geolocation and subclade of all ancient L283 samples we know so far. But there are 3 Nuragics, 1 Dalmatian, 1 Maros, and a rumored according to Eurogenes J2B2 likely L283 from Moldova. The older basal ones are North of the Caucasus, hence why a Indo European North of the Black Sea through the Steppe route into Easter Balkans then through the Danube into North Western Balkans route is highly suggested by the evidence we have so far as to what path L283 took into Europe. The Nuragics are the biggest puzzle as they had to have taken a sea route to get there. But they postdate Dalmatian and Maros sample by some 600+ years, and the older Caucasus and possibly Moldovan sample by a thousand at least.

Hope this helps.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Oh right. Sorry. Confused your first sentence thinking you were talking about L283. But yes the other points regarding L283 still stand and you might wanna address with yourself. It would take me some time to find a post of mine from long ago listing time, geolocation and subclade of all ancient L283 samples we know so far. But there are 3 Nuragics, 1 Dalmatian, 1 Maros, and a rumored according to Eurogenes J2B2 likely L283 from Moldova. The older basal ones are North of the Caucasus, hence why a Indo European North of the Black Sea through the Steppe route into Easter Balkans then through the Danube into North Western Balkans route is highly suggested by the evidence we have so far as to what path L283 took into Europe. The Nuragics are the biggest puzzle as they had to have taken a sea route to get there. But they postdate Dalmatian and Maros sample by some 600+ years, and the older Caucasus and possibly Moldovan sample by a thousand at least.

Hope this help.

If we are talking about these sort of dates then it is difficult to link j2b l283 to illyrians as it clearly predates them. We need ancient dna from 900bc-100ad to better determine

 

[Archetype0ne]

If we are talking about these sort of dates then it is difficult to link j2b l283 to illyrians as it clearly predates them. We need ancient dna from 900bc-100ad to better determine

It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

Hence why I am now even more convinced R1b and J2b2 had to be these Indo Europeans we are talking about.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Hence why I am now even more convinced R1b and J2b2 had to be these Indo Europeans we are talking about.

That is cool but it doesnt answer the question regarding illyrians until we get concrete dates. Only late bronze would be helpful, mostly iron age. It could be illyrians came from elsewhere and wiped out/outnumbered these existing groups

 

[Archetype0ne]

That is cool but it doesnt answer the question regarding illyrians until we get concrete dates. Only late bronze would be helpful, mostly iron age. It could be illyrians came from elsewhere and wiped out/outnumbered these existing groups

Whatever they were, these L283 have continuously lived in the Western Balkans over the last 3-4k years. Which brings us to the topic of this useless thread from this Parapolitikos guy, the same guy that got banned couple of months ago for spewing similar incoherent nonsense, unfortunately taking away with him a lot of the Albanians that got baited in the process at the time. Half my friendlist is banned, yet this ----- still continues. Quite sad.

Edit: Shoutout to Laberia and Nik, hope you're doing well boys.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Whatever they were, these L283 have continuously lived in the Western Balkans over the last 3-4k years. Which brings us to the topic of this useless thread from this Parapolitikos guy, the same guy that got banned couple of months ago for spewing similar incoherent nonsense couple of months ago, unfortunately taking away with him a lot of the Albanians that got baited in the process at the time. Half my friendlist is banned, yet this ----- still continues. Quite sad.

I completely forgot about that idiot, people shouldnt get so worked up about y dna when we dont have enough ancient dna to determine who came from where. We are only speculating

 

[Parapolitikos]

How do you conclude that J2a is foreign in the albanian population?

All J2a that we have at Rrenjet, many of them high resolution test are all bronze age. No specific connection to greeks or italians for at least 3,000 ybp. even more in fact. so there is zero data that J2a is foreign.
Do you have any concrete data/evidence on what you are saying?

J2a exists practically only in South Albania.And in small traces what ever quantities managed to reach north Albania due to sociopolitical reasons in last 10 centuries; slaves, slave soldiers, converts, soldiers, refugees etc. It is a main lineage in The South and in Arbeneshe in South Italy. Similarly,in all the regions around Albania J2a is a main lineage. Gheghs are the only genetic paradox.So it's the other way around.

And By ghegs i dont mean the linguistic division. Gheg-like population most certainly settled in south Albania too in the last 1000 years. That we know for sure. There is no other way that the J-ph1751 and R-Z2705 could have arrived in the region. Not only the haplogroups are very young themselves as a whole, but the TMRCA of all the samples with in the clans and between the clans, show clans members came themselves from a small group of people that delineated gradually from a main population to become the clans.

(from Voskarides and other peer review papers' numbers - Note: J2b lineages arent J-ph1751 outside Albanians)
[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2a[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2b/J2a ratio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albania Kosovo 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16,5%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Crete[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks Central Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek Cypriots[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]23.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks West Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks East Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians Sicily[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks South Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Armenians Anatolia (Sasun)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians South (Griko spekaers)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians South[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians Central[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Central Greece and Attica[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Thrace[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks North Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Peloponnese[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Thessaly[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Arbereshe[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romania[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian Tosk[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FYROM[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians North[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FYROM 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Slovania[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hungary[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Montengro[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian Kosovo[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian North Ghegs[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bosnia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatians[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian FYROM[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albania FYROM 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Bellow the Young devolution of Ph1751 and its extreme regionalism, from Rrenjet:



A similar diagram from Albanian Y-dna Project:

 

[Parapolitikos]

The Rrenjet Project in fact has over 1,100 results thus far and around 800 of them are exclusively members only at Rrenjet and processed in companies FTDNA, YSEQ and Dantelabs. A similar database is also being put together of Mitochondrial lines in Albania, its only around 150 results thus far.
It seems that people are giving opinion on the origin of Albanians without basing their arguments on actual data.
Albanians have very good diversity of both E-v13, J2b2 and R1b-PF7563. It is clear based on the data that there is a continuation of bronze and IA male lines despite the fact that there is a strong genetic bottleneck that fits with the fall of the roman empire and slavic migration to the balkans.
There are now two projects from the Albanian archeologists in partnership with western counterparts on testing ancient remains from archeological sites in Albania. Preliminary results from one of these projects confirm this bronze age continuity for PF7563 and J2b2. Later this year or next year they will publish results.

Well, according to The Rrenjet :

a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.



(Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.



D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.


Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).

 

[Archetype0ne]

Well, according to The Rrenjet :

a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

View attachment 12653

(Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
View attachment 12654
View attachment 12655

D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
View attachment 12656

Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).

So you are surprised there is no L283 in Chameria after a Genocide? Quite interesting.

 

[gjergj]

Are you sure you found not a single link to italy or greece? Do you know how much j2a is found in greece and south italy? There is a lot so maybe take a closer look. Otherwise, start looking at the middle east or maybe Bulgaria/Romania since they have some too

Well I am sure with facts that have been collected that make up the larges sample of Y dna of the Albanian population. So unless you have another sample of that is larger or better its wiser to stick with the current data that we have.
Also look at Yfull data. Albanian J2a results there don't have any closer match with Italians or Greeks that would indicate that J2a is not native to the area.
If in the future we get dna results that would say otherwise we can revisit this point. Until than J2a clades found in the Albanian population remain native and not "foreign".

 

[gjergj]

Well, according to The Rrenjet :

a) Labs have twice as much J2b(not just ph1751) as other Tosk.

View attachment 12653

(Note; Tosk should be taken in a geographic sense, aka a proxy for a South Albanian region with in the known linguistic divide borders.Whatever Gheg or Vlach populations settled in the area in the last Centuries they are by now long incorporated in the general population and adopted the accent of the majority.The only population that could(to a high degree) be held as representative of the original(albanophone) South Albanian population before the alleged(by me) movement of Muslim populations from the north into the south, are the Greek Orthodox Tosk. A comparison between them and Norther Ghegs would be meaningful, and would yield interesting and of great importance data that can be used to derive historical and ethnographic conclusions.)

b) with out the Labs, the remaining Tosk J2b rate is 5% compared to the Ghegs 20%. Again, J2b in general not just ph1751.
This is what i meant by taking in mind the different profiles or the religious minorities. As it is know Labs are exclusively Muslim, which may hints to the origins of the dominant group in the area(that then mixed with locals), whereas most Tosk Christians.
Am guessing once you further categorize the results, you will see an even lower rate of ph1751 in christian Tosks, which is what you expect if what i wrote in my first post are correct.

C) Although the samples are fairly low, so no conclusive statement cant be make about these two groups,both Chams and the (alleged) Arvanite samples from Greece(unless i didn't understand it correctly), show no presence of J2b, and therefor no presence of J-ph1751. Which is again what you would expect if what i claim in the first post are correct.
View attachment 12654
View attachment 12655

D) (this based on the Study of Arbereshe) J-Ph1751 show little presence in Arbereshe too. The total rate of J2b is less than 3%, so what ever j-ph1751 exist in them will be at least that low and probably much much lower.
View attachment 12656

Now the relatively higher presence of z2705 compare to the J-ph1751 in south Albania is puzzling. I would havve expected it to have been lower, but it may have another explanation in addition to the arrival of northern Albanian populations in the region. Probably part of it is related to the settling in the area of christian vlachs in the first millennia, or the regional abnormality is coincidental on the bases of the founder effect(although i doubt the later).

There are so many things wrong with what you say that I dont know where to start. I will pick a few:
There is no Muslim movement from the north to the south. where do you come up with this things. Albanian middle age migration from north to south happened before Ottoman occupation. By the time of the ottoman occupation the country was already settled with the current structure. The only meaningful movement that happened during ottoman period was regional, for example from the highland of Mirdite to its nearest lowlands in Lezha. From south Dibra and Librazhd to the lowland of Elbasan and Belc. So this kind of movement were localized and did not change in essence the structure of the population regionally in terms of haplogroup or religion.

Most j2b2 presence in the south is from middle age migration from north to south but this has nothing to do with the theories that you started this thread.

your effort of trying to see these haplos as connected to religion is also ridiculous. example most labs were orthodox 300 ybp and that regions was settled with the current population a few centuries before this conversion so this kind of thinking does not take you anywhere and opens up a useless subject.

et, etc.

 

[Archetype0ne]

No use arguing with this guy Gjergj. Has been tried before, but he has some complex when it comes to Y lineages that Albanians and Greeks share. Some kind of fascination with our people, of the morbid kind.

What is worse, he likely paints the wrong picture about Greek genetics as well. Maybe he should look in Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before claiming any sort of L283 is absent from Greece.

The sad part is that it doesn't sit well with his propaganda brainwashed mind that Albanian and Greek genetics both in Y and autosomal DNA have so much in common. This is why I hate politics by the way, turns cousins into historical enemies...

 

[Parapolitikos]

No use arguing with this guy Gjergj. Has been tried before, but he has some complex when it comes to Y lineages that Albanians and Greeks share. Some kind of fascination with our people, of the morbid kind.

What is worse, he likely paints the wrong picture about Greek genetics as well. Maybe he should look in Thessaly, Peloponnese and Central Macedonia before claiming any sort of L283 is absent from Greece.

The sad part is that it doesn't sit well with his propaganda brainwashed mind that Albanian and Greek genetics both in Y and autosomal DNA have so much in common. This is why I hate politics by the way, turns cousins into historical enemies...

You are in a Genetics forum buddy.Genetics are discussed in a genetic forum.With evidence if you can. I ve used the data from two Albanian genetics forum and peer review papers, not my theories. And the evaluations/conclusions from Both projects. Data and are like letters, they form words, and words form sentences and from those inescapable conclusions derive. To what degree you like them or not, it doesn't make them any less valid.

It's not me that Argues that there isnt much L283 in Arvanites, Cams or Arbereshe, it's the data from 3-4 studies, including the data from 2 Albania DNA projects. Voskarides study also reaffirms that indirectly as Peloponnese is the area of Greece with the lowest J2b rates.

Another Study from an area inhabited by arvanites also shows negligible levels of J2b (it's the third one):
View attachment 12657

Same is shown by the study on Arbereshe.

Those are a small fragment of the evidence. Once you gather all the evidence and align them you have a clearer idea about historical population movements that shape the genetic profiles of the regions.

Evidence like this one for instance which is by far the most important: Why Albanians from south Albania and Albanians from Kosovo share almost none of the clades found in each place, when the regions hae big presence of J-ph1751 and R-Z2705?
DIFFERENT e-v13 clades, DIFFERENT J1 clades, DIFFERENT R1a Clades, DIFFERENT (non z2705) R1b clades,

Here is the spread of different Ev13 clades. Thousands of years apart


Here is for the different clades of R1b(non-2705). Thousands of years apart too.

Here are the Different clades of J2b. Thousands of years apart also.


Etc etc. Similar pattern you will see in the rest of the haplogroups.

Now here are the one million $ questions. How come in spite the proximity of the geography of South and North Albania, the only clades of the haplogroups North and South Albanians share are the two that are 1000 years old?How come? And why arent they shared by people that left Albania 600 and 700 years ago? Why the people that spread to such vast extend the two young haplogroups, Ph1751 & R-Z2705, didnt spread any other haplogroups?


Go ahead, give me any model that can explain all the above and i am open minded, if it makes sense i will accept it.

 

[Southpaw]

It's because J2b2 was more of a Dalmatian and Montenegrin Illyrian Y-DNA than deeper inland. This is what i theorize.

 

[TetaEglantina]

J2a exists practically only in South Albania.And in small traces what ever quantities managed to reach north Albania due to sociopolitical reasons in last 10 centuries; slaves, slave soldiers, converts, soldiers, refugees etc. It is a main lineage in The South and in Arbeneshe in South Italy. Similarly,in all the regions around Albania J2a is a main lineage. Gheghs are the only genetic paradox.So it's the other way around.

And By ghegs i dont mean the linguistic division. Gheg-like population most certainly settled in south Albania too in the last 1000 years. That we know for sure. There is no other way that the J-ph1751 and R-Z2705 could have arrived in the region. Not only the haplogroups are very young themselves as a whole, but the TMRCA of all the samples with in the clans and between the clans, show clans members came themselves from a small group of people that delineated gradually from a main population to become the clans.

(from Voskarides and other peer review papers' numbers - Note: J2b lineages arent J-ph1751 outside Albanians)
[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD]Population[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2a[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2b[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #808080, align: center"]J2b/J2a ratio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albania Kosovo 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]-%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16,5%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Crete[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]30.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.09[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks Central Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]26.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greek Cypriots[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]23.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks West Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.06[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks East Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians Sicily[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.21[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks South Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Armenians Anatolia (Sasun)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians South (Griko spekaers)[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians South[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.18[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians Central[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.23[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Central Greece and Attica[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.65[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Thrace[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Asia Minor and Aegean[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Turks North Anatolia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Peloponnese[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12.30%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Thessaly[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]9.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greeks Macedonia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Arbereshe[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.44[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romania[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]8.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian Tosk[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FYROM[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]7%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.71[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bulgaria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Italians North[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FYROM 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]5.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Slovania[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.77[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hungary[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.70%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.13[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Montengro[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.40%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian Kosovo[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]4.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Serbia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian North Ghegs[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.50%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]10[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bosnia[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.20%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.80%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0.81[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Croatians[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.90%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]2.10%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albanian FYROM[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.60%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]14%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]11.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Albania FYROM 2[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]1.00%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18%[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]18[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Bellow the Young devolution of Ph1751 and its extreme regionalism, from Rrenjet:

View attachment 12651

A similar diagram from Albanian Y-dna Project:

Utter nonsense, j2a is a not a major lineage in south albania, those are still ev13 & r1b z2103, if j2a is a major lineage then so is i1! Even i2a din is more common in south albania than the entirety of j2a

Also arbereshe had a mix of greeks and slavs/romanians which explains their y dna with elevated j2a and i2a din