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US Elections 2004 U.S. Elections

I honestly don't have a problem with convicted felons not being able to vote. People who have committed heinous crimes should not have the same rights as people who have never done so, imho. What would be the argument for giving them the right to vote?
 
cicatriz esp said:
I honestly don't have a problem with convicted felons not being able to vote. People who have committed heinous crimes should not have the same rights as people who have never done so, imho. What would be the argument for giving them the right to vote?

Probably that they paid their dues to society. Besides, not all felonies are for heinous crimes. There are a lot of felony drug charges as well.
 
If I understood it correctly, regardless of crime, you loose the right to vote? I believe whatever chance there is to rehabilitate an ex-con into society isn't improving by stripping them one of their most fundamental rights.
 
In the US, crimes are divided into two broad categories, misdemeanors and felonies.

Misdemeanors are minor crimes punishable by less than one year of confinement and/or a fine. This is why a common jail term in the US is "11 months and 29 days" (the maximum a judge can sentence a person for a misdemeanor). Misdemeanor sentences are normally served at the county jail in the county where the crime took place. Persons convicted of misdemeanors do not lose civil rights such as the right to vote or to own a gun. That only applies to persons convicted of felonies.
 
The rules also vary from state to state. In most states, convicted felons who have served their time are allowed to vote, but in a few like Florida they are not.
 
Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford headed a panel that looked into the 2000 Florida Debacle. They found glaring irregularities that denied thousands of Floridians a fair chance to vote, and probably cost Gore the election. They made recommendations to congress which passed them two years ago. In spite of this, Carter writes of his concern for the current election in the Washington Post: "Florida voting officials have proved to be highly partisan, brazenly violating a basic need for an unbiased and universally trusted authority to manage all elements of the electoral process."
 
And it is likely to happen all over again. Computer voting!? NO paper trails.
 
sabro said:
Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford headed a panel that looked into the 2000 Florida Debacle. They found glaring irregularities that denied thousands of Floridians a fair chance to vote, and probably cost Gore the election. They made recommendations to congress which passed them two years ago. In spite of this, Carter writes of his concern for the current election in the Washington Post: "Florida voting officials have proved to be highly partisan, brazenly violating a basic need for an unbiased and universally trusted authority to manage all elements of the electoral process."

He also has no plans to monitor the elections in Florida, and is quite the partisan politician himself.

How many of those Florida voting officials are highly partisan Democrats, by the way?

edit:

I have found the answer to my own question:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/28/110145.shtml

The relevant section:

And: "Which leaves the 'stolen election' crowd with these inconvenient facts: In 24 of the 25 Florida counties with the highest ballot spoilage rate, the county supervisor was a Democrat. In the 25th county, the supervisor was an Independent. And as for the 'felon purge list,' the Miami Herald found that whites were twice as likely to be incorrectly placed on the list as blacks."

You were saying?
 
Last edited:
The newsmax.com article was hilarious. I always though that Carter was a peace loving, democracy pushing, born again Christian whose main pursuits were human rights, affordable houses, and fair elections. But he's no more than a commie hugging, vote stealing, liar! And that pinko lie sheet the New York Times of all yellow rags.

newsmax- my new source for right wing enlightenedment.

sabro
 
sabro said:
The newsmax.com article was hilarious. I always though that Carter was a peace loving, democracy pushing, born again Christian whose main pursuits were human rights, affordable houses, and fair elections. But he's no more than a commie hugging, vote stealing, liar! And that pinko lie sheet the New York Times of all yellow rags.

newsmax- my new source for right wing enlightenedment.

sabro

:D :D
_______________
 
sabro said:
The newsmax.com article was hilarious. I always though that Carter was a peace loving, democracy pushing, born again Christian whose main pursuits were human rights, affordable houses, and fair elections. But he's no more than a commie hugging, vote stealing, liar! And that pinko lie sheet the New York Times of all yellow rags.

newsmax- my new source for right wing enlightenedment.

sabro

I couldn't agree more. They have a very obvious right wing bias.

They must have been lying about those 25 county election commisioners being Democrats. And the Miami Herald must have been lying about whites being twice as likely as blacks to be wrongly listed on the felon list.

I guess you, very understandably, chose not to dignify those lies with a response, choosing instead to shoot the messenger.
 
mikecash said:
I couldn't agree more. They have a very obvious right wing bias.

They must have been lying about those 25 county election commisioners being Democrats. And the Miami Herald must have been lying about whites being twice as likely as blacks to be wrongly listed on the felon list.

I guess you, very understandably, chose not to dignify those lies with a response, choosing instead to shoot the messenger.

The statistics they quote may be true, but they can also be misleading if not put in proper context. They said 24 out of 25 commisioners in areas with high spoilage rates being Democrat. What does that mean though? For one thing, ballot spoilage is only a small part of the voting irregularities that went on. Secondly it doesn't mention the very limited powers that these commisioners have and the fact that the Republican secretary of State is the one responsible for overseeing Florida's hodge-podge voting system. As it is, its not surprising that the 24 areas with the highest spoilage rate are in democrat as they are usually the POOR areas where they don't get enough money to provide the proper voting systems set up in richer, republican neighborhoods.

As for the whites being twice as likely to be wrongly listed on the felon list, thats a bit misleading to, isn't it? Seeing as how the white population is much greater than twice that of the black population in Florida, black people were still getting stricken from the list at a proportionally much higher rate than whites were.
 
Far from being misleading, I think it is rather illuminating.

If you're doing the math as (for example):

1000 whites were mistakenly listed, of 1,000,000 white voters
1000 blacks were mistakenly listed, of 500,000 black voters

then your comment about being stricken at a proportionally higher rate would of course be correct. But that isn't what "twice as likely to be wrongly listed" means. It means that the percentage of whites mistakenly listed was twice as high as the percentage of blacks mistakenly listed. So that for the make-believe just-fer-instance numbers I used above would be more like:

4,000 whites mistakenly listed, of 1,000,000 white voters
1,000 blacks mistakenly listed, of 500,000 black voters

Lets look here: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html for some more accurate figures

Florida population in the year 2000 was about 16,000,000. Of these, 14.6% were black and about 78% were white. That works out to about 2,300,000 total black population and about 12,500,000 million whites.

While googling around, I was surprised to learn that the ACLU has filed a lawsuit over this issue and MICHAEL MOORE is named as defendant!
http://www.aclufl.org/legislature_c...riefs_complaints/ex-felons__voting_rights.cfm

The ACLU, in that suit, gives a figure of 525,100 disenfranchised felons in Florida and says that 204,600 of these are black. Truly disturbing figures, both of them. I wish I knew what the Hispanic component of this is, since Hispanics make up a larger proportion of the Florida population than blacks.

What you can garner from those figures is that the percentage of blacks who have been convicted of felonies and thus disenfranchised is a most appalling figure and one far out of whack when compared to the white population. After all, 204,000 folks out of a total of 2.3 million (including those not yet old enough to vote, of course) is out of all proportion to what may be roughly 300,000 disenfranchised whites out of a total of 12.5 million.

But "twice as likely" still means "twice as likely". So if there was (for example) a 10% incidence of mistakenly listed blacks, then there would be a 20% incidence of mistakenly listed whites. As we saw above, blacks make up just under half of the total disenfrancised list. So even though we're looking at an amazingly high number of disenfranchised blacks in relation to the total black population, when compared to the same ratio with whites....you still end up with whites being wrongly listed at twice the rate....and with the total number of wrongly disenfranchised whites not differing all that much from the total number of wrongly disenfranchised blacks.

This all points to lots of very disturbing issues which certainly need very serious consideration and attention. But the existance of some sort of rich white Republican conspiracy to steal elections by keeping blacks from the ballot box isn't one of them.
 
lolife said:
Ex-felons does not have the right to vote?! Is the US society moving towards such Nietzsche-like ideals (which maybe, in a sense, is unavoidable in such a corperate controlled enviroment)..??

:okashii:

oi! nietzsche never said criminals should have no rights! He more or less says the opposite..

he talks about how criminals are considered criminals because of what values we hold true just because it's "always been like that" and how those values may slowly change and turn those that once were considered criminals into heroes...

I think you're mistaking Nietzsche for the faulty Nazi interpritations of Nietzsche.
 
mikecash said:
This all points to lots of very disturbing issues which certainly need very serious consideration and attention. But the existance of some sort of rich white Republican conspiracy to steal elections by keeping blacks from the ballot box isn't one of them.

Interesting statistics. I don't think anyone is arguing about any 'conspiracies'' per se, its just that the people in charge know the system is broken and yet, also knowing that they benefit from its being broken, they do nothing to try and fix it and simply try to continue on wth the status quo. To me, that is unacceptable.
 
It stems from a disagreement over what the problem is.

Some say that the problem is the disenfranchisement, and that the law should be changed.

Some say that the problem is the commission of felonies which leads to conviction for felonies, and that people should quit committing felonies if disenfranchisement bugs them.

Of course, this can quickly degenerate into a finger-pointing shouting match where one side demands that individuals act and live their lives with a greater display of personal responsibility while the other side protests that there are long-standing societal conditions and prejudices which practically doom a certain set of people to unfair arrest, conviction, incarceration, and disenfranchisement.
 
Regardless of who is elected, the war in Iraq will continue and hundreds more American soldiers and thousands more Iraqi civilians will die.

Regardless of who is elected, many more non-violent drug offenders will be given longer jail sentences than some rapists and murderers.

Regardless of who is elected, the federal government will continue to ignore the wishes of some states and continue to lock up sick and elderly people for using the wrong medicine.

Regardless of who is elected, some children will continue to be denied medical care because their parents have no insurance.

Regardless of who is elected, some old people will have to choose between medicine or food.

Regardless of who is elected, it doesn't look like things will change too much.
 
I watched the debate yesterdat at CNN International (thanks to PANAMSAT 1). Well, I think there was nothing said than expected... Whoever wins, there will be no much difference. And I don?t complain about it... I gave up complaning those things.
 
I wasn't able to watch the debate, but I did find this interesting:

October 1, 2004
Kerry Wins Debate, But Iraq Mess to Continue No Matter Who Is President

John Kerry scored steadily throughout the debate Thursday night in Coral Gables. He came across well versed in all the issues. His answers were clear and direct. And he landed punch after punch on issue after issue.

He was especially strong on how the Iraq War has distracted the United States from the war against Al Qaeda.

Kerry used Richard Clarke's line to good effect: that Bush attacking Iraq after 9/11 is like FDR attacking Mexico after Pearl Harbor. And Kerry repeated his harsh criticism that the Iraq War constituted "a colossal error in judgment." At one point, Kerry added that Bush has got "ten times the number of troops in Iraq than where Osama bin Laden is."

Kerry went after Bush at least twice for "outsourcing the job" of capturing Osama bin Laden to Afghan warlords.

But Kerry stopped short of assailing Bush for letting 9/11 happen on his watch. For some reason, Kerry chose not to bring up Bush's August 6, 2001, Presidential Daily Briefing that said, "Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S."

Kerry rightfully pointed out how bin Laden is also using the Iraq War for propaganda purposes, but Kerry left himself open to a quick, solid counterpunch from Bush that bin Laden should not be determining U.S. policy.

Bush, especially at the beginning, appeared halting, ill at ease, and then bemused with a who-is-this-jerk look on his face while Kerry was speaking. Bush invoked 9/11 right away and throughout the debate, accusing Kerry of having a "pre-September 10 mentality."

It didn't help Bush's case, though, that he confused the names of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein right after Kerry accused him of using the war on terror as a pretext to invade Iraq. But Bush grew stronger as the night wore on. He repeated, ad nauseam, the charge that Kerry is "inconsistent" and keeps sending "mixed messages."

By contrast, Bush stressed how tough and determined he was. "You better have a President who chases these terrorists down," he said. The United States needs to "stay on offense," he said over and over.

Kerry missed an opportunity to jab back at Bush when the President boasted, at least twice, of busting up the nuclear Wal-Mart that Pakistani scientist A.Q. Khan was running. The Bush Administration played along with General Musharraf's charade of prosecuting and then pardoning Khan, and in September Bush failed to press Musharraf to let the United States question Khan about his nefarious dealings.

Moderator Jim Lehrer managed to entirely forget about the issue of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, a huge omission in this foreign policy debate. (Both Kerry and Bush waved at Israel once in passing.)

Kerry did nail Bush twice on the subject of nuclear proliferation, pointing out that Bush has not done nearly enough to round up the loose nukes in the former Soviet Union and has, in fact, cut money for it. "At his pace, he won't do it for thirteen years; I'll do it in four years," Kerry said twice, referring to his pledge to secure the nuclear materials there. And, to his credit, Kerry pointed out how hypocritical it was for the United States to conduct "research on bunker busting nuclear weapons while we're telling" other nations not to acquire nuclear weapons.

Kerry also slammed Bush for not protecting our ports, nuclear power plants, or chemical plants. And Kerry charged that Bush caved to the corporate pressure of the chemical companies.

Bush had one of his weakest moments when he tried to respond to the charge that he has not done enough on homeland security. All he could think of saying was, "How is he going to pay" for all this? And then Bush muttered that taxes would be the subject of another debate.

Kerry shot back that he and Bush "didn't need that tax cut" for the wealthy. "We need to keep America safe."

Bush also looked terrible when he responded to Kerry once by saying, "Of course I know Osama bin Laden attacked us. I know that." It was like he was talking about some trivial fact he had studied for, like what's the capital of Kazakhstan, instead of the biggest event of our lifetimes.

And Kerry got a good jab in after Bush boasted of changing the culture of the FBI, as Kerry promptly noted that "we just read in our daily newspapers of 100,000 hours of tapes unlistened to in the FBI."

On the dominant issue of the Iraq War, Kerry defended his vote to authorize the war but argued that Bush did not exhaust the diplomatic options, did not bring the allies on board, did not use force as a last resort, and did not have a plan to win the peace. Kerry also twice pointed out that the only ministry the U.S. guarded after the fall of Baghdad was the oil ministry, suggesting that this gave people the impression that the United States was there for the oil.

Bush dragged Dr. Allawi on stage a couple of times to vouch for the correctness of the President's policies.

And Bush strongly suggested that to criticize Allawi was a no-no for anyone who wanted to be President. Bush also hammered away at Kerry for saying that this was "the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place." That was something no commander in chief should ever say because it discourages the troops, the allies, and the Iraqis, Bush argued.

Kerry shredded Bush's claim of some grand coalition of the willing, noting that Americans were bearing 90 percent of the casualties and 90 percent of the costs and that only three or four other countries have any sizable contingent of troops in Iraq.

But once the subject came down to what to do now in Iraq, Kerry was not much more reassuring than Bush.

Both said they were determined to stay until victory.

"The biggest disaster is if we don't succeed in Iraq," the President said. "We're going to win this war in Iraq."

Kerry said, "I'm not talking about leaving; I'm talking about winning." And at another point he said, "We need to win this."

Kerry even asserted that "we don't have enough troops" in Iraq and that the United States should have gone in and taken Fallujah. Though Kerry said "it's getting worse every day" in Iraq, his plan for more troops will bring only more bloodshed and more images of Americans as occupiers.

Kerry said he had a four-point plan for Iraq, but it is not markedly different than Bush's. The most Kerry could muster was to say that he would call a summit of allies and that the United States should renounce any "long-term designs" in Iraq.

Bush insisted "we're making progress" in Iraq, while acknowledging that "it's hard work."

But he offered little hope to U.S. soldiers and their families that the war would be over any time in the near future. "We'll get you home as soon as the mission is done," he said.

He was unrepentant about his unilateralism and denounced the international criminal court as a "foreign court" that could indict U.S. soldiers or diplomats, while Kerry criticized him for getting out of the global warming treaty. "We have a lot of earning back to do," Kerry said.

But Kerry himself did not reject unilateralism or preemptive war, for that matter. Peace activists, beware: Kerry said he would not rule out such preemptive action against North Korea and Iraq. He was, however, for bilateral talks with North Korea, which Bush derided. On this issue, while Kerry was right on the merits, Bush may have seemed stronger to the audience.

Bush also closed better than Kerry did.

But all in all, Kerry was more confident, more sure-footed, and more agile. And he gave America a clear choice: If you want a go-it-alone, "more-of-the-same" President, choose Bush. If you want a foreign policy that reaches out to our allies and tries to repair relations in the Muslim world, choose Kerry.
-- Matthew Rothschild

http://www.progressive.org/webex04/wx100104.html

:souka:
 
Question for Mikecash: What state do you vote in? I just want to know in case I have to vote twice. : )
 
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