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Torzio/Vettor/Sile certainly cropped out Albanians from that image. Here is the original post and image on Phylogeographer where he got it from: https://phylogeographer.com/phylogeographer-updated-to-yfull-v10-00-00/ He is also erred (or perhaps making it up) about the modern Albanian from...

^ J-Z631 has been found in Roman Timacum Minus, in modern day southern Serbia, and autosomally labeled Balkans Iron Age Cluster by the authors (source). Furthermore, J-Z631 has so far been absent in Celtic related cultures, or anywhere in Central Europe before the common era, for that matter...

No, I'm not dealing with "rumored" samples. I have access to FTDNA database projects, so I can see what's out there besides the samples you see on YFull, and I was simply trying to help you out understand things better. Anyways, your theories don't really align with current state of J-L283...

He doesn't like your map because it implies Daunian J-L283 is related to the Albanian clades ;) I think you mean Z38240. I've seen you made this typo before, so just wanted to point it out. I believe your theories will not hold once we get some relevant aDNA for these subclades. We can't...

Unfortunately not, unless they are resequenced in a future paper or something. These samples are very low coverage (~0.01 to 0.06 for chrY). I did check the BAM files for many J-L283 subclades older than ~3000 ybp and could not get anything useful, besides that ORD014 is negative for a J-Y23094...

I think you mean when Z638 left towards Europe. Under this scenario, it would be ~3800 ybp or later, of course assuming YFull TMRCA is correct here. This would suggest these L283 clades, including Z638, formed and were quite common in the NW Caucasus region until about 3800 ybp, but for some...

Ok. So basically we should ignore ancient DNA if it doesn't suit our theories :) Post expansion sector?! Of course we'll find most aDNA samples post expansion of a given clade. You can't find something before it was born.. In the case of J-Z638, we have an ancient sample deep in south...

Yes, I don't think anyone is claiming J-Z638 originated in Albania, although it's certainly possible it was just north of there. IMO, we're most likely looking at the region between Northwestern to North Balkans (including modern Slovenia), where it would've quickly expanded mostly further...

Exactly! It's as simple as that. In today's day and age, especially since there is already so many useful J-L283 available, aDNA in combination with modern diversity speak for themselves.

It looks like they tried to sneak one in 😂, just like user Garrick used to do in this same thread a couple of years ago 😂

Yeah, unfortunately, the coverage of the samples from the Daunian paper is too low to get any Y subclades (~0.01 to 0.05x). Hopefully they are resequenced in a future paper or something + more samples from the Messapian region. I strongly suspect they are at least J-Z597+ though. I remember just...

There is what you have :smile: It does make sense based on available data. The other IA Slovenian, I22940, 475 BCE, I was able to classify it to J-Z38240 branch. So it's definitely shaping up like J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058>Z38240 was more northern. While the oldest J-Z597>Z2507>Z638 comes from south...

Thanks, that would make sense. I think it's remarkable and quite telling that two of the oldest J-Z2507 samples (dated to MBA), which btw also belong to each of its branches, are found so close to each other. The "brother" clade to J-Z2507, that is J-Y146400, seems pretty western Balkan as...

Yes, I would kindly suggest to please not derail this thread by engaging in arguments that aren't really related to J-L283. There is already appropriate threads for other haplogroups.

Yes, the autosomal profile of the I2a-Y3120 sample is nothing like the ancient samples from the "Illyrian" areas, but is in fact closer to modern south Slavic populations . So, since this sample isn't radiocarbon dated, it's very likely that he is wrongly dated or perhaps even contaminated with...

The ancient DNA paper focused on the British Isles is finally published. It also contains samples from other parts of Europe, such as central Europe and Slovenia, Croatia: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04287-4 There is a total of 11 J-L283s: I26726, 1461 BCE, Croatia_MBA...

I agree, looking at modern distribution it's easy to theorize "Celtic dispersal" of J-Z631. This view has been held many times before, including me ;) However, keep in mind that if we based things on modern distribution, R1b-M269>L23 would be from Iberia (as was theorized years ago on these...

Not really. There is a sample bias on FTDNA, as Western Europeans are overrepresented there. Further, as can be seen on the J2b-L283 aDNA map, there is currently no J-L283 older than 2000 ybp North of Balkans and Italy, with first samples appearing in the Medieval period (and both J-Z631, which...

Since I have some time to waste.. did I say ancient samples don't count? The Caucasus samples are too young to suggest an origin there. Besides, you claimed there is "studies" that show J-L283 originates in the Caucasus. And please, I'd like to hear more about my "agenda" :lol2:

There is currently this one, but it has all the "E" ancient samples lumped together: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zr7itbDHGgvM.kHmbTTiPAdtQ Agree, it would be good to have a specific one for E-L618>V13 as well..