Catacomb Culture as source of Greek, Albanian, Armenian

[norbert]

Balto-Slavic is a Corded Ware language. Satemization is only an areal feature, propagating out from the Indo-Iranian speech community, in which it has its fullest realization. If you want to put Greek, Armenian, and Albanian in Catacomb Culture, feel free to do so, but Balto-Slavic is a Corded Ware language, while Indo-Iranian may have Catacomb influences.

If satemization is an areal feature, why is Tocharian a centum language? Satem-like features have arisen in different areas, at different times. Changes to sibilant sounds like S occured independently as well. French cent is pronounced as sã. Now French is obviously a centum language but such shifts can give you an insight how they might have occured in the past, only on a much larger scale. The division of IE lanuages into centum and satem is no longer important as it used to be.

 

[torzio]

@norbert

The lack of linguistic relationship of Albanians with Illyrian names, the lack
of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-
faring terminology in the reconstructed language having borrowed corresponding
words from Roman or Greek language makes it most likely that Albanians were unrelated
to many of the ancient Illyrian tribes. Most likely is that they came from further north,
settlements of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and
farther north of this, basically in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the
Beskidy/Bieszczady area.

 

[norbert]

@norbert

The lack of linguistic relationship of Albanians with Illyrian names, the lack
of Proto-Albanian toponymy in Illyria, and the absence of indigenous sea-
faring terminology in the reconstructed language having borrowed corresponding
words from Roman or Greek language makes it most likely that Albanians were unrelated
to many of the ancient Illyrian tribes. Most likely is that they came from further north,
settlements of Proto-Albanians believed to be in Dacia Ripensis and
farther north of this, basically in the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains and the
Beskidy/Bieszczady area.

I wasn't getting into that but I agree. Almost all of the maritime and flora and fauna vocabulary is borrowed from Latin and Greek. A sea-faring people would certainly have enough of their own maritime vocabulary. Much, if not most, of their agricultural terminology is derived from Slavic. Proto-Albanian emerged in Moesia Superior, in close proximity to proto-Romanian. About 40% of Albanian words are Latin borrowings. Over the centuries, Albanian has been exposed to the more politically powerful and advanced cultures that surrounded it. Being a people of semi-nomadic herders, the Albanians were moving all over southern Balkans until they expanded to the Adriatic Sea. Maybe that's how they evaded full romanisation.

 

[epirus1000]

I wasn't getting into that but I agree. Almost all of the maritime and flora and fauna vocabulary is borrowed from Latin and Greek. A sea-faring people would certainly have enough of their own maritime vocabulary. Much, if not most, of their agricultural terminology is derived from Slavic. Proto-Albanian emerged in Moesia Superior, in close proximity to proto-Romanian. About 40% of Albanian words are Latin borrowings. Over the centuries, Albanian has been exposed to the more politically powerful and advanced cultures that surrounded it. Being a people of semi-nomadic herders, the Albanians were moving all over southern Balkans until they expanded to the Adriatic Sea. Maybe that's how they evaded full romanisation.

It's pretty easy to say things that you don't know. "Sea" in Albania is "deti" pretty obvious related to the Greek Mythology "tetis", with the standard conversion of 't' to 'd' observed in many cases in Albanian. The amount of 'flora and fauna' Albanian words is quite large and I don't know where did you get that. I don't know that cow, sheep, pig, goat in Albanian and many other flora and fauna words are related to any other language.
It's easy to jump into conclusions when you don't know the language. We use the language and we can distinguish

 

[Archetype0ne]

It's pretty easy to say things that you don't know. "Sea" in Albania is "deti" pretty obvious related to the Greek Mythology "tetis", with the standard conversion of 't' to 'd' observed in many cases in Albanian. The amount of 'flora and fauna' Albanian words is quite large and I don't know where did you get that. I don't know that cow, sheep, pig, goat in Albanian and many other flora and fauna words are related to any other language.
It's easy to jump into conclusions when you don't know the language. We use the language and we can distinguish

It is just that people keep parroting and regurgitating things they read on pinterest. Even the argument is flawed, we know for a fact that following the Illyrian wars Romans took control of the coastline, for the purpose of solving the pirate problem the wars were started over. In this context maritime vocabulary being replaced over 20 centuries by Latin terms is the bare expectation. Likewise North Illyrian tribes following the two Bato revolt were moved around the empire to prevent such future rebellions, with only a limited number surviving in the hinterland.

Ps: I tried really hard to find a thread regarding non IE roots in Albanian where dardhë root among a couple of others are the same to some Caucasian languages. The poster was linking such words to the CHG part of the CHGEHG mix that gave us IE. Searched my browsing history with no luck, it was either in genarchivist or twitter. If someone comes across it please share. Maybe Riverman or someone has also seen it.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Here is the public access paper I was referencing.

https://scholarlypublications.universiteitleiden.nl/access/item%3A3656153/view

 

[Archetype0ne]

4.6.5 Relative chronology In contrast with the loanwords discussed in the previous two chapters, the linguistic stage at which Proto-Armenian borrowedthese words is not clearly distinguishable from Proto-Indo European. In other words, the adoption of these words appear to have begun before any identifiable sound changes had taken place. Still, it is a necessary presumption that the dialects of Proto-Indo European had already diverged to such a degree that they constituted discrete speech communities, since otherwise, foreign words would not have been borrowed in different forms. Loanwords that must have been adopted after the emergence, in Proto-Armenian, of tenues aspiratae and the secondary *s₂ in Armenian and Greek, are naturally later, and suggest that the shared contact between one or more non-IE languages, by Armenian, Greek, and probably Albanian, took place over a relatively prolonged period of time (cf.Martirosyan 2013: 123).

Apart from the lexemes shared between Armenian and Greek alone, these languages also share lexemes of a wider distribution, in particular including Italic and Germanic – secondarily Celtic. Again, this draws the tentative picture of an linguistic contact zone centering upon Armenian and Greek. Remaining Core Indo European languages, in particular Italic, Celtic, and Germanic initially adopt words within this same contact zone, but presumably migrate out of it before Armenian and Greek become geographically removed from one another. This is particularly confirmed by the presence, noted above, of words with tenues aspiratae and the secondary sibilant *s₂, which are shared exclusively by Armenian, Greek, and Albanian, and must represent relatively late loanwords. The presumption of a fundamental border in the linguistic landscape, separating the South-East from the North-West is additionally supported by the distribution of forms with the cluster *‑VC‑against *‑VsC‑.

The third layer of loanwords evaluated in this work clearly represents the oldest. It testifies to a prolonged contact between Armenian and one or more unclassified, non-IE languages. This234 5. Evaluation and outlook contact event predated all or most Armenian sound changes. Crucially, most other Indo-European languages, with the exception of Anatolian and Tocharian, were to some degree in contact with the same stratum. These facts, taken together, suggest that this period of language contact must have begun relatively shortly after the dissolution of the Core Indo-European languages. Therefore, it most likely represents contact between speakers still residing near theIndo-European homeland, and speakers of those languages neighbouring them. It seems clear that Armenian, Greek, and Albanian remained in close contact with the same language(s) for the longest period of time. This is consistent with the data showing that these languages shared innovations on the basis of inherited material as well (Matzinger 2012, Lamberterie 2013, Olsen & Thorsø 2022).At the same time, there is also a considerable overlap between non-Indo-European vocabulary in Armenian and that found in Germanic, Italic and Celtic. Among these loanwords are terms for agricultural crops, like ‘barley’ and ‘some pulse’ (> Arm. ‘alfalfa’),indicating that Proto-Armenian existed within the core of Indo European languages whose speakers migrated Westward across the steppe and went through a gradual transition from a completely herding-based economy to a more sedentary culture with elements of agriculture, starting from around 3300 bce (cf. Kroonen et al.2022). Nevertheless, Armenian does not share as much foreign agricultural vocabulary with Germanic, Italic, and Celtic as these languages do with one another. Thus, there is reason to believe that its speakers did not take part in those population movements that later gave rise to the Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures in Europe. Again, given that population movements around 2000 bce are a plausible vector for the movement of Proto-Armenian speakers into the Caucasus, it is tempting to preliminarily locate these Proto Armenian speakers somewhere in the Late Yamnaya and perhaps in the Catacomb culture, which emerges from Yamnaya starting around 2500 bce. Future studies combining linguistic, archaeological, and genetic evidence will hopefully be able to confirm or reject this hypothesis.

 

[Jovialis]

On the other hand, it is also quite viable that Corded Ware could be a source for "northern" ancestry, at least for for these Northern Greeks. But at least not necessarily linguistic influence, save for some dialectic augmentation (if there is any).

IMHO, the Mycenaeans possibly received steppe straight from a source like Yamnaya or Catacomb. But I think later Greeks, such as Dorians could have received more "Northern" ancestry from Central Europe (likely through mediation via neighbors in a more complex process overtime, rather than a direct climactic invasion from Central Europe)

https://twitter.com/x/status/1768655394904174652

https://twitter.com/x/status/1773390091462816237

 

[tyuiopman]

I'm not disputing that argument from a genetic viewpoint and know that the, once widely accepted, theory of their Balkan origins is no longer popular. Linguistically, however, Armenian and Greek remain very close and the genetics of a people can change drastically in time. Is the genetic make-up of the Hungarians in tune with their language? Armenian seems like a satemised language, obviously under the influence of Indo-Iranian. Be as it may, placing it on the map as Mr. Bjørn did makes more sense than putting the origins of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian within Yamnaya territory.

It's from a linguistic point of view too. Armenian and Greek are close, but not that close. The split occurred about 5000 years ago. Armenian also had early contact with Kartvelian languages, as well as now extinct languages of the Caucasus and northern Near East.

There was a culture descended from Catacomb Culture that spread through the Caucasus and historic Armenia in the Bronze Age. That was Trialeti-Vanadzor Culture.

There's no reason to assume Armenians came from the Balkans, genetically or linguistically. Proto-Greeks and Proto-Albanians moved southwest to the Balkans. Proto-Armenians moved directly south from the North Caucasus into the South Caucasus and northern Near East.

 

[APO276]

In modern Greek we use many Romance maritime terms too. I think most of them are non-Greek. That must mean Ancient Greeks didn't have a navy. Also the word for the meaning 'home' is from Latin. That must mean we didn't have homes either.

The argument 'Albanian doesn't have native maritime terms, therefore it isn't Illyrian' is ridiculous. First of all they may descend from Illyrians of the mountains, tribes which didn't have maritime knowledge or who had some but had lost it etc and I am talking as someone who doesn't care about the issue.

 

[norbert]

It's from a linguistic point of view too. Armenian and Greek are close, but not that close. The split occurred about 5000 years ago. Armenian also had early contact with Kartvelian languages, as well as now extinct languages of the Caucasus and northern Near East.

There was a culture descended from Catacomb Culture that spread through the Caucasus and historic Armenia in the Bronze Age. That was Trialeti-Vanadzor Culture.

There's no reason to assume Armenians came from the Balkans, genetically or linguistically. Proto-Greeks and Proto-Albanians moved southwest to the Balkans. Proto-Armenians moved directly south from the North Caucasus into the South Caucasus and northern Near East.

I think my previous views in regards to Armenian origins were definitely wrong. You have summed it all up pretty well.

 

[norbert]

In modern Greek we use many Romance maritime terms too. I think most of them are non-Greek. That must mean Ancient Greeks didn't have a navy. Also the word for the meaning 'home' is from Latin. That must mean we didn't have homes either.

The argument 'Albanian doesn't have native maritime terms, therefore it isn't Illyrian' is ridiculous. First of all they may descend from Illyrians of the mountains, tribes which didn't have maritime knowledge or who had some but had lost it etc and I am talking as someone who doesn't care about the issue.

You can not compare a well-attested, classical language like Greek with a language without any written records before the late 15th century or early 16th century CE. There were no nautical and maritime borrowings from Latin in classical Greek but vice versa. The Latin loanwords in modern Greek date back to the influence on Koine Greek. The old Greek word for home is "oikos" which was replaced by "spiti" during the Byzantine or Eastern Roman era. And I seriously doubt that most modern maritime Greek words come from Latin or other languages.

 

[norbert]

Disliking posts like a bunch of small children. A sign of weak-minded people with an inferiority complex.

 

[APO276]

You can not compare a well-attested, classical language like Greek with a language without any written records before the late 15th century or early 16th century CE. There were no nautical and maritime borrowings from Latin in classical Greek but vice versa. The Latin loanwords in modern Greek date back to the influence on Koine Greek. The old Greek word for home is "oikos" which was replaced by "spiti" during the Byzantine or Eastern Roman era. And I seriously doubt that most modern maritime Greek words come from Latin or other languages.

Can you make a list of the Albanian maritime termsyou have in mind? Then we can compare it with what happens in a well attested language.

 

[norbert]

Can you make a list of the Albanian maritime termsyou have in mind? Then we can compare it with what happens in a well attested language.

I can only reiterate what was claimed by people who are actually proficient in the Albanian language which I am not nor do I wish to be. The Albanians do not descend from a seafaring people and their maritime, nautical and agricultural vocabulary is almost entirely Graeco-Roman. Add to this the heavy Slavic influence on the agricultural vocabulary. Even their word for fish is Latin-derived ("peshk"). You don't have to live on the sea to encounter a fish. Long story short: the Albanians were a seminomadic people of shepherds, dwelling in the mountains of the Balkan hinterlands, which is also what saved them from total romanisation. Considering the incredible amount of Latin loanwords in Albanian, they were on their way of becoming another branch of "Vlachs." If you want a list of the entire Albanian maritime terminology, I suggest you make your own, as I have a hunch that you're a native speaker.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I can only reiterate what was claimed by people who are actually proficient in the Albanian language which I am not nor do I wish to be. The Albanians do not descend from a seafaring people and their maritime, nautical and agricultural vocabulary is almost entirely Graeco-Roman. Add to this the heavy Slavic influence on the agricultural vocabulary. Even their word for fish is Latin-derived ("peshk"). You don't have to live on the sea to encounter a fish. Long story short: the Albanians were a seminomadic people of shepherds, dwelling in the mountains of the Balkan hinterlands, which is also what saved them from total romanisation. Considering the incredible amount of Latin loanwords in Albanian, they were on their way of becoming another branch of "Vlachs." If you want a list of the entire Albanian maritime terminology, I suggest you make your own, as I have a hunch that you're a native speaker.

Typical of your kind, ran away at the first request for a source. Trustmebrology.
Imagine being 18 Centuries between the Roman and Byzantine empire and expecting the vocabulary not to change.

Latin-derived ("peshk")...
From Proto-Italic *piskis, from Proto-Indo-European *peysk-. Cognates include Old Irish íasc, Gothic 𐍆𐌹𐍃𐌺𐍃 (fisks) and Old English fisċ (English fish).

That's like saying the Brits got "guest" from "gosti".

But no... Illyrians and Albanians did not see a fish till they reached the coast...
As if that wasn't at least 4000 years ago whether you look at L283, V13, or the R1bs?

Mate if half the dozen scientific papers of the last 3 years have not convinced you, what can I say... good luck with your disability.

 

[norbert]

But "peshk" is not an IE cognate. It's clearly a loanword from Latin. I'm not saying that Albanians didn't have their own word for fish prior to the massive Latin influence but, considering the dominance of Latin in its entire maritime vocabulary, it is unlikely that the formation of the Albanian language occured anywhere near the sea. Like I said, the Albanians were a mobile, mountain-dwelling people of shepherds from the interior of the Balkans. They couldn't escape the influence of Latin (and Greek) but their mobility, due to the kind of subsistence they were practicing, saved them from full romanisation. They lived in close proximity to proto-Romanians.

 

[Archetype0ne]

But "peshk" is not an IE cognate. It's clearly a loanword from Latin. I'm not saying that Albanians didn't have their own word for fish prior to the massive Latin influence but, considering the dominance of Latin in its entire maritime vocabulary, it is unlikely that the formation of the Albanian language occured anywhere near the sea. Like I said, the Albanians were a mobile, mountain-dwelling people of shepherds from the interior of the Balkans. They couldn't escape the influence of Latin (and Greek) but their mobility, due to the kind of subsistence they were practicing, saved them from full romanisation. They lived in close proximity to proto-Romanians.

Mate I am not a linguist and wont bother much with this.

But you cant even prove the very first sentence in your paragraph, that is annoying.

1. Initial Sound: PIE *p remains "p."
2. Vowel Sound: PIE *e remains "e" or *i becomes "e" (more likely considering Albanian vowel preferences).
3. Sibilant Sound: PIE *s remains "s." *
4. Cluster Changes: PIE *sk might simplify to "k," but given Albanian's tendency to insert an "h" sound in similar Latin borrowings, "shk" might appear due to analogical influence from other borrowed terms. *
5. Final Sound: PIE *k remains "k." *

The observation that Albanian words typically end in "eshk" rather than "esk" is an important phonological consideration when evaluating the origin of the word "peshk."

Phonological Considerations in Albanian​

1. Latin Influence on Albanian:
   • Many Latin borrowings in Albanian show specific phonological changes, including the transformation of Latin "sc" to Albanian "sh."
   • For example, Latin "piscis" becomes Albanian "peshk," where "sc" becomes "sh" and the word ends in "k."
2. Endings in "eshk" vs. "esk":
   • Albanian has a tendency to end certain words with "shk" rather than "sk." This can be observed in several examples where "shk" is a common ending.
   • There are few, if any, -native or borrowed- Albanian words that end in "esk" without the "h" insertion, suggesting a phonological preference or rule.

Phonological Pathways from PIE

• *PIE p: Would likely remain as "p" in Albanian.
• *PIE e or i: Would likely remain as "e" in Albanian.
• *PIE s: Would likely become "sh" in Albanian, especially when combined with other consonants.
• *PIE k or g: Would remain as "k."

Given these rules, the direct inheritance from PIE *peysk might logically end up as something similar to "pesk," but considering Albanian's tendency to insert "h" in clusters, it is more plausible to end with "peshk."

Good luck finding words in Albanian native or borrowed that will end in esk or sk, instead of eshk or shk. This heavily implies that instead of the sibilant and final sound being rendered independently from the PIE root (step *3, *5) a cluster change is invloded (*4).
Both native direct IE development and Latin borrowing would give the same result in Albanian "Peshk".

The only circumstance that favored the Latin borrowing was historical contact between Latin and early Albanian. But in the last year alone we have had both genetic and comparative linguistic papers that show that proto-Albanian/s were a direct offshoot of Yamnaya, so that factor should now be re-evaluated, and there are many such fish in the sea.

 

[Archetype0ne]

PS. In my own worldview the Slavic migrations are to thank for the form modern Albanian took.

Without it, for all we know it would have become a full Romance language. But thanks to that 7th century excursion the West and East sections of the Empire got fragmented for good, and what small trade networks remained in the region were confined to the Komani-Kruja complex.

Albanians the way we know them today both genetically and linguistically took a mutually exclusive path at that intersection of history. Whatever paleo-Balkan languages were north of this complex got wiped off.

I don't even believe E-V13 was fully nomadic, these people seemed to be settled across the Danube basin from what we can tell from Roman Serbia and Migration period Hungary. While the many waves of invaders seem to have completely upended the genetic makeup of Hungary, you still have V13 in Albania, Montenegro, Serbia, Romania.

 

[Hawk]

From linguistic POV Armenian, Albanian, Greek branch was always the weakest with Albanian showing glimpses of Corded-Ware-like with northern languages argued for decades by linguists.

V13 natural home was never Albania or Montenegro, it was always in and around Danube, not far from Danube, i always insist the location between Haemus Mons -Danube - Southern Carpathians is the natural home. Their expansion during LBA wiped out the high Yamnaya population in Eastern Balkans and Illyrian-like in Central Balkans and the WHG-EEF in Carpathians the later kin to Szeremle/Encrusted-Pottery people.