J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Archetype0ne]

Last I checked WGS is better than BigY. Especially if you find it on sale during holidays. You get high quality autosomal results on top of terminal Y clade (whereas BigY does not cover everything even on the Y IIRC), for similar price.

Better to doublecheck though, I checked few months ago.

 

[Riverman]

Last I checked WGS is better than BigY. Especially if you find it on sale during holidays. You get high quality autosomal results on top of terminal Y clade (whereas BigY does not cover everything even on the Y IIRC), for similar price.

Better to doublecheck though, I checked few months ago.

The price is not everything though, because a couple of bucks more or less won't bring you more matches, both in the BigY tree and in the STR data base. Its probably different for Albanians, because if I look at the E-V13 I have an eye on, Albanians are definitely better represented on YFull, but practically all other populations are better represented by FTDNA. There are probably a couple of other groups like some Gulf Arab citizens which are better represented on YFull as well, but for most of the others finding closer matches and forming new branches is simply more likely on FTDNA, pretty much regardless of haplogroup.

 

[Glitch]

The price is not everything though, because a couple of bucks more or less won't bring you more matches, both in the BigY tree and in the STR data base. Its probably different for Albanians, because if I look at the E-V13 I have an eye on, Albanians are definitely better represented on YFull, but practically all other populations are better represented by FTDNA. There are probably a couple of other groups like some Gulf Arab citizens which are better represented on YFull as well, but for most of the others finding closer matches and forming new branches is simply more likely on FTDNA, pretty much regardless of haplogroup.

This is one of the most annoying concepts we face through archaeogenetic research. With this example we see that Y tree data is being separated by two companies and thus slowing our research and hindering progress and standardization of knowledge. Similarly this very thread is an example, as half of all J2b-L283 discussion is also taking place on the Anthrogenica forum, with minimal crossover taking place besides those like e.g. Archetype0ne who decide to frequent both forums and spread the information to one another. Furthermore, who knows if any info is being missed from The Apricity. This lack of a consolidation of information is slowing down research progress and imo requires a solution.

 

[mount123]

@Illyrian_by_surprise and @Galaxy Overlord
@AllNewbies

Have you guys tested with a commercial company? If so then I would recommend uploading your raw data on cladefinder a tool that was codeveloped by one of our haplogroup researchers Hunter Provyn by the way: https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

This is the J2b-L283 portal (courtesy of Provyn) where he posts all sorts of news and interesting articles regarding our haplogroup. You will also notice a WGS wishlist for members that will get a test partially or entirely paid of donations to his account (is also linked there for those who want to donate): https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/ He also has a Youtube channel.

If you've tested with FTDNA join the M241+ group asap: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about/background, admin is our main haplogroup researcher Flor Veseli, who has also made this nice aDNA J2b-L283 map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...hl=en_US&ll=48.749927729634116,22.6271305&z=3

As far as I recall correctly Hunter is working on a video "J2b-L283 for dummies" and I can imagine that it will entail some info specifically targeted at newly tested guys who need a bit of help ordering a more defining Y test. Also, we have a Facebook private group called "Haplogroup J-L283", admins are again Veseli and Provyn.

You guys can also contact Hunter, I am pretty sure both of your results will be very beneficial in advancing our haplogroup research.

Hope this was helpful.

 

[Riverman]

This is one of the most annoying concepts we face through archaeogenetic research. With this example we see that Y tree data is being separated by two companies and thus slowing our research and hindering progress and standardization of knowledge. Similarly this very thread is an example, as half of all J2b-L283 discussion is also taking place on the Anthrogenica forum, with minimal crossover taking place besides those like e.g. Archetype0ne who decide to frequent both forums and spread the information to one another. Furthermore, who knows if any info is being missed from The Apricity. This lack of a consolidation of information is slowing down research progress and imo requires a solution.

Absolutely agree and I'm trying to be on all important platforms myself, like I simply uploaded to YFull. Which is yet another argument: You can upload the BigY to YFull, but the opposite is unfortunately not true.

 

[Glitch]

@Illyrian_by_surprise and @Galaxy Overlord
@AllNewbies

Have you guys tested with a commercial company? If so then I would recommend uploading your raw data on cladefinder a tool that was codeveloped by one of our haplogroup researchers Hunter Provyn by the way: https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

This is the J2b-L283 portal (courtesy of Provyn) where he posts all sorts of news and interesting articles regarding our haplogroup. You will also notice a WGS wishlist for members that will get a test partially or entirely paid of donations to his account (is also linked there for those who want to donate): https://phylogeographer.com/j2b-l283/ He also has a Youtube channel.

If you've tested with FTDNA join the M241+ group asap: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about/background, admin is our main haplogroup researcher Flor Veseli, who has also made this nice aDNA J2b-L283 map: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...hl=en_US&ll=48.749927729634116,22.6271305&z=3

As far as I recall correctly Hunter is working on a video "J2b-L283 for dummies" and I can imagine that it will entail some info specifically targeted at newly tested guys who need a bit of help ordering a more defining Y test. Also, we have a Facebook private group called "Haplogroup J-L283", admins are again Veseli and Provyn.

You guys can also contact Hunter, I am pretty sure both of your results will be very beneficial in advancing our haplogroup research.

Hope this was helpful.

Hi!

I have been lurking the J2b-L283 Forums for a couple years now but I have only recently begun to start posting again on Eupedia, and on Anthrogenica, which some of you might recognize me as (WWWWWWW...)

I have currently only tested with 23andme which assigned me J-Z631, likewise I receive the same result of J-Z631 on cladefinder. I trace paternal descent to Friuli, Northeast Italy.

I am aware of the work of Flor Veseli and Hunter Provyn with regards to the the J2b-L283 map, FTDNA group, Hunter's Youtube vids and phylogeographer, etc. I'm also currently in the J2b-L283 Facebook group.

I have still been debating further testing for a while as a result of cost. Thank you for the welcome and information I appreciate it!

 

[Glitch]

Absolutely agree and I'm trying to be on all important platforms myself, like I simply uploaded to YFull. Which is yet another argument: You can upload the BigY to YFull, but the opposite is unfortunately not true.

Ya, and this is a good reason for why Yfull is beginning to become the primary tree we reference.

 

[mount123]

@Galaxy Overlord

You're welcome. If cost has been the main factor of debating wether you want to upgrade or not then keep in mind that you might possibly get cofunded or entirely funded. Hunter chooses based on the importance of the clade etc. not sure how the process is on FTDNA with Flor.

Ya, and this is a good reason for why Yfull is beginning to become the primary tree we reference.

FTDNA is important to us Kosovo Albanian J2b-L283 carriers as we can display our origins accordingly. YFull is problematic because it is Russian owned with its headquarters being in Barcelona. The cofounder Vadim Urasin is very biased politically speaking (pro-Russian/Serbian).

I have contacted them in the past why they unlike FTDNA which recognizes and respects the territorial integrity of the Republic of Kosovo are not offering Kosovo Albanians to put the Kosovo flag and Albanian language code simultaniously but instead Milosevician regional code for Serbia.

I got an answer that resembles that of Russian/Serbian trolls, a slogan which Albanian users here know and I won't repeat.

 

[Riverman]

Ya, and this is a good reason for why Yfull is beginning to become the primary tree we reference.

Well, the problem is that most FTDNA testers, and there are much more of them, either don't know YFull or don't care, which is why a whole lot of branches and populations are missing on YFull. I would like them all to upload their results, but they don't do it.

 

[Illyrian_by_surpirse]

Thanks for the info. I guess it doesn't get more accurate than J-Z631 with my raw data.

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is J-Z631 Link to J-Z631 on YFull View maps, migrations and statistics on HRAS View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer


J-Z631 CTS10800(?) Y1421/Z8420(?) Z2531/CTS2105($) Z2532(?) Z631+ Z632(?) Z633/S3028/FGC3177/Z36425($) Z634(?) Z635($) Z636($) Z639+ Z8419(?)
┣━J-FT101890 FT101890($)
┃ ┣━J-FT99882 FT100079(?) FT100539(?) FT100737(?) FT100748(?) FT101247($) FT101940(?) FT102643(?) FT102882($) FT102964(?) FT103339(?) FT166417(?) FT206048(?) FT99882($) FT99899(?) Y183881/FT206051(?)
┃ ┗━J-Y136384 BY70392(?) Y136384(?)
┣━J-Y144394 +2 B249(?) FT110632(?) FT110753(?) Y144394($) Y144403(?) Y144415(?) Y144421(?) Y144428(?) Y158382/BY183803(?) Y370110(?)
┣━J-Y155546 Y155546/BY178901($)
┣━J-Y220774 FGC23715($) FT101706(?) FT18535(?) FT297615(?) FT78447(?) MF22958(?) MF95101(?) Y220774(?) Y220775(?) Y220776(?) Y220777(?) Y220778(?) Y220779($) Y220780(?) Y220781(?) Y220782($) Y220783(?) Y220784(?) Y220785($) Y220786($) Y220787(?) Y220788(?) Y220789(?) Y220790(?) Y220791(?) Y220792(?) Y220793(?) Y220794(?) Y220795(?) Y220796(?) Y220797($) Y220798(?) Y220799(?) Y220800(?) Y220801(?) Y220802(?) Y220803(?) Y220804(?) Y220805(?) Y220806(?) Y220807(?) Y220808(?) Y220809(?) Y226380(?) Y226381(?) Y226382(?) Y24810($) Y300554(?) Y300555(?) Y300556(?) Y300557(?) Y300558(?)
┣━J-Y423942 Y423942(?)
┣━J-Y87605 +2 Y130482($) Y303945(?) Y87605($)
┗━J-Z1043 +8 Z1043/CTS9036($) Z1048/CTS9038($)

 

[Riverman]

Thanks for the info. I guess it doesn't get more accurate than J-Z631 with my raw data.

Most specific position on the YFull YTree is J-Z631 Link to J-Z631 on YFull View maps, migrations and statistics on HRAS View theoretical migration on PhyloGeographer


J-Z631 CTS10800(?) Y1421/Z8420(?) Z2531/CTS2105($) Z2532(?) Z631+ Z632(?) Z633/S3028/FGC3177/Z36425($) Z634(?) Z635($) Z636($) Z639+ Z8419(?)
┣━J-FT101890 FT101890($)
┃ ┣━J-FT99882 FT100079(?) FT100539(?) FT100737(?) FT100748(?) FT101247($) FT101940(?) FT102643(?) FT102882($) FT102964(?) FT103339(?) FT166417(?) FT206048(?) FT99882($) FT99899(?) Y183881/FT206051(?)
┃ ┗━J-Y136384 BY70392(?) Y136384(?)
┣━J-Y144394 +2 B249(?) FT110632(?) FT110753(?) Y144394($) Y144403(?) Y144415(?) Y144421(?) Y144428(?) Y158382/BY183803(?) Y370110(?)
┣━J-Y155546 Y155546/BY178901($)
┣━J-Y220774 FGC23715($) FT101706(?) FT18535(?) FT297615(?) FT78447(?) MF22958(?) MF95101(?) Y220774(?) Y220775(?) Y220776(?) Y220777(?) Y220778(?) Y220779($) Y220780(?) Y220781(?) Y220782($) Y220783(?) Y220784(?) Y220785($) Y220786($) Y220787(?) Y220788(?) Y220789(?) Y220790(?) Y220791(?) Y220792(?) Y220793(?) Y220794(?) Y220795(?) Y220796(?) Y220797($) Y220798(?) Y220799(?) Y220800(?) Y220801(?) Y220802(?) Y220803(?) Y220804(?) Y220805(?) Y220806(?) Y220807(?) Y220808(?) Y220809(?) Y226380(?) Y226381(?) Y226382(?) Y24810($) Y300554(?) Y300555(?) Y300556(?) Y300557(?) Y300558(?)
┣━J-Y423942 Y423942(?)
┣━J-Y87605 +2 Y130482($) Y303945(?) Y87605($)
┗━J-Z1043 +8 Z1043/CTS9036($) Z1048/CTS9038($)

Of course, you need to take an NGS test to get further downstream.

 

[mount123]

Two new J2b-L283 samples from Poland, see study Biological history of the human populations inhabiting Central Europe in the first ages of the common era:

PCA0113 J2b-L283 Maslomecz Roman
PCA0390 J2b-L283 Medieval Santok

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB48333

 

[Glitch]

This is one of the most annoying concepts we face through archaeogenetic research. With this example we see that Y tree data is being separated by two companies and thus slowing our research and hindering progress and standardization of knowledge. Similarly this very thread is an example, as half of all J2b-L283 discussion is also taking place on the Anthrogenica forum, with minimal crossover taking place besides those like e.g. Archetype0ne who decide to frequent both forums and spread the information to one another. Furthermore, who knows if any info is being missed from The Apricity. This lack of a consolidation of information is slowing down research progress and imo requires a solution.

So interestingly enough, only about a week following the referenced quote above, it seems that the forums may be combining themselves after all. I have just now heard the news that Anthrogenica will soon be closing on Friday 17 August 2023, following over 11 years of continued activity. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?28715-Anthrogenica-is-Closing-on-08-17-2023

I expect we may see many Anthrogenica refugees from the J2b-L283 thread to soon begin transitioning to this Eupedia J2b-L283 thread in the coming weeks.

 

[mount123]

Two new J2b-L283 samples from Poland, see study Biological history of the human populations inhabiting Central Europe in the first ages of the common era:

PCA0113 J2b-L283 Maslomecz Roman
PCA0390 J2b-L283 Medieval Santok

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB48333

Having contacted Trojet, only PCA0113 can be placed under M241 but due to low coverage nothing more downstream specific. It is highly likely L283.

As always, all thanks go to Trojet, I think I speak on behalf of every J2b-L283 member when I say that your expertise and work, which cannot be taken for granted, is very much appreciated by all of us. Cannot stress this enough.

Edit: with regards to the Maslomecz sample. Has also been added to the aDNA J2b-L283 map.

 

[Glitch]

Two new J2b-L283 samples from Poland, see study Biological history of the human populations inhabiting Central Europe in the first ages of the common era:

PCA0113 J2b-L283 Maslomecz Roman
PCA0390 J2b-L283 Medieval Santok

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB48333

Here is the G25 if anyone wants to run some models: PCA0113,0.124067,0.151314,0.016593,-0.011951,0.027082,-0.007251,-0.010575,0.000923,0.015748,0.026424,-0.002111,0.004946,-0.020664,-0.003578,0.009229,-0.007027,0.012126,0.011655,0.002514,-0.004002,-0.028325,0.016446,-0.012078,-0.003133,-0.014849

Heatmaps by ph2ter:

 

[PaleoRevenge]

In Anthrogenica there was a little dispute about unrealistic models, trying to force model Illyrian profiles through a steppe and Albanian neolithic combination. The model fails because Illyrians do not start out in Albania, the only samples that can be modeled with Albanian neolithic are the R-PF7562/3 samples, even the ones from Pylos show some preference for Albanian neolithic. I spend some time playing around with Illyrians BA samples, which is tough for Adriatic Illyrians because they are all over the place, they do however show certain patterns even in their schizo profiles, but it becomes apparent once they are divided between male and female.

I'll start with Albanian MBA sample which I am certain is not Cetina but Belotic-Crkva dervied Illyrian. First look is the supplementary material from southern Arc.

The models will reject Albanian neolithic simply because the profile did not evolve in Albania during EBA like R-PF7563 carriers did. This is what my model shows:

The neolithic components of this inland J2b-L283 fellar are strictly Serbian and Hungarian. The geography hints Belotic-Crkva, which was known to be very similar to Cetina in material culture, but inland version in eastern Bosnia and western Serbia. The two samples from Macedonia that show similarity to Alb MBA are have also origins from the same region during EIA. I will describe their journey in another thread and keep this thread J2b centric.

Both Cetina and Belotic-Crkva likely originate further north in a earlier time in the area of eastern Vinkovci. They broke off from the Yamnaya block that was dominated by R-Z2103. The confusion is created by Cetina profiles because they absorbed a lot of Beaker aDNA when they took over the Adriatic from Beaker control.
The Cetina samples DNA are from the early onset of Cetina culture horizon, and the differences between males and females are drastic.

The difference of males and females for both Cetina and HRV MBA are of the same distance, by LBA this difference had subsided and the population profile had stabilized.

This how the samples score in the neolithic model.

Coastal Illyrians are very schizophrenic, sometimes non-sense noise is created such as Romanian neolithic, because of diverse inputs that make their profile. What stands out is the earliest J2b on the coast are Yamnaya, and inland neolithic, Cetina has good amount of Serbian neolithic similar to the Albanian MBA fellow, a good indication of their starting point and common origin. The females have obvious Beaker signal (Corded and Italian chalcolithic) and Albanian. The Albanian neolithic is not an error, HRV MBA samples are from near the Montenegrin border not far from Albania which before J2b showed up was dominated by R-PF7563, who carry a strong Alb neolithic component.

And to remove any doubt on the Alb neolithic component, R-PF7563 are the top scores and nearby non-Illyrian populations south-east of them.

1_Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
2_Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
POL_BKG_N:Avg,0.121600833333333,0.171793666666667,0.0336266666666667,-0.0614238333333333,0.0693461666666667,-0.0323976666666667,0.000391666666666667,-0.000230833333333333,0.0459496666666667,0.0785738333333333,0.0023545,0.009391,-0.0177153333333333,0.00309666666666667,-0.0301073333333333,-0.00556883333333333,0.0116476666666667,0.00287166666666667,0.0128631666666667,-0.0093795,-0.0042425,0.00748116666666667,-0.00796983333333333,-0.0190388333333333,-0.00347283333333333
POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg,0.128294857142857,0.170101357142857,0.0588578571428571,-0.0259092142857143,0.0830045,-0.0214147857142857,0.00129257142857143,0.00702164285714286,0.0525772142857143,0.0728814285714286,0.000464,0.0100946428571429,-0.0171702142857143,-0.0066255,-0.0132132142857143,0.000606142857142857,0.00724564285714286,0.00614428571428571,0.00683264285714286,-5.35714285714284E-05,0.00962578571428572,0.00711878571428571,-0.0137949285714286,-0.0258728571428571,0.000213928571428572
CZE_EE:Avg,0.127237964285714,0.17097175,0.0509921071428571,-0.0404442142857143,0.0819822142857143,-0.0237257142857143,-0.000654642857142857,0.00443392857142857,0.0550607857142857,0.0779645357142857,0.000144928571428572,0.0109027857142857,-0.022315,-0.00614885714285714,-0.0161603214285714,0.000895,0.0154737142857143,0.004122,0.00753732142857143,-0.00224225,0.00953217857142857,0.006483,-0.01290575,-0.0280934285714286,0.000440464285714286
CZE_ME:Avg,0.124392285714286,0.169956214285714,0.0544939285714286,-0.0342841428571429,0.0824109285714286,-0.0206178571428571,0.000419714285714286,0.00456571428571428,0.0517447142857143,0.0746646428571428,0.00145,0.00639064285714286,-0.0203134285714286,-0.00460057142857143,-0.0150649285714286,-0.0001135,0.0111852142857143,0.00594535714285714,0.00472271428571429,-0.00364464285714286,0.00912671428571428,0.00552028571428571,-0.0128618571428571,-0.0287389285714286,0.000350714285714286
CZE_N:Avg,0.125611857142857,0.1793135,0.0332404285714286,-0.0636540714285714,0.0725628571428572,-0.0344431428571429,-0.00334035714285714,0.000164857142857143,0.049933,0.0792597142857143,0.00394357142857143,0.0102338571428571,-0.0220018571428571,0.000186785714285714,-0.0274639285714286,-0.0030685,0.0150593571428571,0.00213557142857143,0.010442,-0.00544014285714286,-0.000641785714285715,0.00774578571428571,-0.0089355,-0.0144768571428571,-0.00251485714285714
HRV_N:Avg,0.120146555555556,0.181140333333333,0.0140232962962963,-0.0905238518518519,0.0603644814814815,-0.0414411111111111,-0.003203,-0.00304266666666667,0.0446619259259259,0.0861436666666667,0.00674807407407407,0.0135491111111111,-0.0230973703703704,-0.0010142962962963,-0.0379764814814815,-0.0122081111111111,0.0167615185185185,0.000957222222222222,0.0104841481481481,-0.00956937037037037,-0.0106200740740741,0.00504222222222222,-0.00389837037037037,-0.005516,-0.00431981481481481
ITA_N:Avg,0.1237256,0.1804595,0.0142173,-0.0789412,0.0601651,-0.0393792,-0.0045356,-0.0041076,0.0448929,0.0854687,0.0034102,0.014537,-0.0250643,-0.0053535,-0.0301435,-0.0051974,0.0187754,0.0022805,0.0079819,-0.0086792,-0.0063386,0.0032891,-0.0049669,-0.0119414,-0.0007425
ITA_CA:Avg,0.124067285714286,0.179603857142857,0.0323248571428571,-0.0631234285714286,0.0695074285714286,-0.0337458571428571,-0.00419642857142857,-0.00286814285714286,0.0490857142857143,0.0880982857142857,0.00183257142857143,0.0137662857142857,-0.0266104285714286,-0.00241814285714286,-0.0206488571428571,-0.00505728571428571,0.0129078571428571,-0.000343857142857143,0.00585414285714286,-0.006789,-0.00262028571428571,0.0106341428571429,-0.0100887142857143,-0.0191248571428571,-0.000616
ITA_Sardinia_CA:Avg,0.128269846153846,0.179905,0.0428467692307692,-0.0568728461538461,0.0794230769230769,-0.0307423076923077,-0.00287430769230769,-0.000816461538461539,0.0587141538461538,0.100173923076923,0.000312153846153846,0.016589,-0.0345236153846154,-0.0154242307692308,-0.0181028461538462,-0.000173461538461539,0.0137606153846154,0.00343030769230769,0.00431238461538461,-0.011621,0.000873384615384615,0.00211146153846154,-0.0112913846153846,-0.0284284615384615,0.000902846153846154
ITA_Broion_CA,0.123498,0.1822875,0.024136,-0.059755,0.0678585,-0.0446225,-0.0074025,-0.001154,0.0447905,0.0835555,0.0026795,0.015586,-0.0250495,0.0070875,-0.0177115,-0.0066295,0.011278,0.001774,0.0065365,-0.009567,-0.013913,0.0168165,-0.0100445,-0.0148215,0.003712
HUN_Baden_LCA:Avg,0.127969857142857,0.175396428571429,0.0319475714285714,-0.0624774285714286,0.0690238571428571,-0.0312755714285714,-0.00238371428571429,0.000296571428571429,0.045667,0.0793247142857143,0.003248,0.0140447142857143,-0.0224901428571429,0.000334285714285714,-0.0286948571428571,-0.00750085714285714,0.0141,0.002588,0.012498,-0.008379,-0.00504471428571429,0.00575885714285714,-0.00485928571428571,-0.017145,0.000615714285714286
HUN_LCA:Avg,0.121790666666667,0.168578,0.02753,-0.0580323333333333,0.0702693333333333,-0.0269596666666667,-0.00203666666666667,-0.00161533333333333,0.040973,0.07988,0.001624,0.00959133333333333,-0.019772,0.00133033333333333,-0.029587,0.0122866666666667,0.0246423333333333,0.00540533333333333,0.00905,-0.00650333333333333,-0.00486633333333333,0.00865566666666667,-0.006286,-0.0130943333333333,-0.000359333333333333
HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:Avg,0.127861333333333,0.177040666666667,0.0252673333333333,-0.0708446666666667,0.072321,-0.028726,-0.006502,0.000384666666666667,0.0489493333333333,0.080184,0.004276,0.007943,-0.0158076666666667,0.00477066666666667,-0.035785,-0.0132146666666667,0.00982233333333333,0.000126666666666667,0.0106006666666667,-0.00712866666666667,-0.00561533333333333,0.00255566666666667,-0.002917,-0.00887666666666667,-0.00303366666666667
ROU_N:Avg,0.1246365,0.18406475,0.0118795,-0.0973845,0.061396,-0.04894525,-0.00475875,-0.0047305,0.04637575,0.092075,0.006861,0.01442475,-0.0239715,0.0036815,-0.0477395,-0.01431975,0.019199,0.008203,0.01461225,-0.00912925,-0.01553525,0.006059,-0.00714825,0.0038255,-0.00874175
ROU_C:Avg,0.12548975,0.17060875,0.02413575,-0.063308,0.06578125,-0.03311825,0,-0.00080775,0.0411605,0.0726665,0.0031665,0.00966625,-0.0185455,-3.44999999999998E-05,-0.0303675,-0.0063975,0.0158415,0.00047525,0.013167,-0.00703475,-0.0031195,0.005348,-0.006686,-0.0146705,-0.0035925
Romania_Danubian_Avg,0.12206388,0.17239632,0.0131238,-0.07263624,0.0536468,-0.0339578,-0.0037788,-0.0011076,0.03319824,0.0707586,0.00535232,0.01061052,-0.01971836,0.00219084,-0.0328226,-0.00904268,0.0151506,0.0039122,0.00847196,-0.01024992,-0.00849008,0.00526256,-0.00603412,-0.01185212,-0.00199264
Rou_N_Bukovina_Average,0.119026571428571,0.174090857142857,0.0240278571428571,-0.0675992857142857,0.0573732857142857,-0.0287255714285714,-0.00271942857142857,-0.000593428571428572,0.0401451428571429,0.0737795714285714,0.00751614285714286,0.00854242857142857,-0.0177968571428571,0.00576028571428572,-0.0347057142857143,-0.0118192857142857,0.011101,-0.000271428571428571,0.00905028571428572,-0.00734271428571429,-0.00369,0.0127361428571429,-0.00271142857142857,-0.0101044285714286,-0.00410571428571429
Rou_N_Transylvania:Avg,0.1195145,0.17797175,0.0301695,-0.072029,0.06293475,-0.03116625,-0.00423,-0.00126925,0.04514825,0.07977375,0.005602,0.00809275,-0.024009,0.0051265,-0.0298585,-0.01382225,0.006291,-0.00053825,0.00817025,-0.0075975,-0.00383675,0.00608975,-0.00369725,-0.0170205,-0.00188625
SRB_N:Avg,0.129378666666667,0.183134,0.011188,-0.097869,0.0588826666666667,-0.0449943333333333,-0.00156666666666667,-0.00707666666666667,0.0407686666666667,0.0896603333333333,0.00319366666666667,0.015586,-0.0223486666666667,4.60000000000003E-05,-0.0417566666666667,-0.015513,0.0200356666666667,0.000253666666666667,0.0111033333333333,-0.0124643333333333,-0.00540733333333333,0.004328,-0.00772366666666667,0.00453866666666667,0.000279333333333333
SRB_CBA:Avg,0.1257745,0.1777175,0.02621,-0.071706,0.065243,-0.0355585,-0.0015275,-0.002308,0.0466315,0.0789995,0.003004,0.015436,-0.023414,0.004748,-0.0310125,-0.0127285,0.0215135,0.007728,0.007416,-0.004502,-0.006426,0.0057495,-0.0110305,-0.0181955,-0.0083225
ALB_MKD_NC:Avg,0.123687666666667,0.184149333333333,0.00251433333333333,-0.102175666666667,0.051394,-0.0469466666666667,-0.003525,-0.00246166666666667,0.040632,0.0840106666666667,0.00974333333333333,0.0125886666666667,-0.0262136666666667,0.00165166666666667,-0.0406706666666667,-0.0153803333333333,0.013299,0.002196,0.0104746666666667,-0.0162996666666667,-0.0124363333333333,0.00783133333333333,-0.00176666666666667,0.001205,-0.00782366666666667
GRC_N:Avg,0.11434043,0.17476338,-0.00569102347272727,-0.0961074378181818,0.0442878805454545,-0.0451802139090909,-0.00232870401818182,-0.00312569842727273,0.0294329064545455,0.0742363483636364,0.00602312088181818,0.0122209923,-0.0231369336363636,-0.00175160221454545,-0.0368419778181818,-0.00966696318181818,0.02345722,-1.1202545454546E-07,0.0101357883272727,-0.0137566630909091,-0.0164482572636364,0.00454137804545455,-0.003764604,-0.000832669090909091,-0.00628142412727273
GRC_Minoan:Avg,0.113823129172414,0.171239262413793,-0.0173345517862069,-0.0897720373793103,0.029013338862069,-0.0378425697586207,-0.00128038443793103,-0.00530746287241379,0.0129273328137931,0.0600625745517242,0.00485482718517241,0.0115913991055172,-0.0219761827103448,0.000930158292413793,-0.0310003162068965,-0.00806967234482759,0.0160507466013793,0.000825695220344827,0.0103895781103448,-0.0122084390589655,-0.0096295337,0.00387584341172414,-0.00334038353965517,0.00174102350517241,-0.00423666683482759
BGR_Varna_Avg,0.122802444444444,0.171398666666667,0.0149591111111111,-0.0665021111111111,0.0528985555555556,-0.0321964444444444,0.000182777777777778,-0.004128,0.0332692222222222,0.0686625555555555,0.00739755555555556,0.00637755555555556,-0.0178061111111111,0.00142211111111111,-0.0304766666666667,0.000721888888888889,0.0215567777777778,0.00215377777777778,0.00970655555555556,-0.005183,-0.00375722222222222,0.00513844444444444,-0.00861366666666667,-0.0157851111111111,-0.00497622222222222
BGR_Yunanitse:Avg,0.120317705882353,0.175149058823529,0.00525735294117647,-0.0834290588235294,0.0516656470588235,-0.0372235882352941,-0.000207352941176471,-0.00244335294117647,0.0336261764705882,0.0753920588235294,0.00482394117647059,0.0118835882352941,-0.0232786470588235,0.000963235294117647,-0.0363650588235294,-0.00938264705882353,0.0167428823529412,0.00155011764705882,0.0111649411764706,-0.00871729411764706,-0.00971817647058824,0.00584817647058824,-0.00314647058823529,-0.00649988235294118,-0.00307811764705882
X_ME:sha009_Shahtepe_IRN_CA_Avg,0.0827116666666667,0.0954596666666667,-0.098554,-0.00721366666666667,-0.087914,0.00920366666666667,0.00705,-0.00930733333333333,-0.0695383333333333,-0.035961,-0.000216333333333333,0.008842,-0.00966266666666667,-0.005826,0.012622,0.0255456666666667,0.00551933333333333,0.00287133333333333,0.00758366666666667,-0.016091,0.00465866666666667,-0.00919166666666667,-0.00369766666666667,-0.0207256666666667,0.0122943333333333
X_ME:ulu117_Ulucak_TUR_CA,0.105855,0.160454,-0.033564,-0.070414,0.001231,-0.019522,-0.00047,-0.008307,-0.00225,0.036083,0.008607,0.02293,-0.019921,0.002752,-0.015065,0.008486,0.037681,-0.000633,0.007416,-0.016633,0.000499,0.000495,-0.016269,0.001325,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_Arslantepe_LC:Avg,0.102239941176471,0.152329352941176,-0.0560578235294118,-0.0869250588235294,-0.0119297058823529,-0.0295459411764706,0.00110588235294118,-0.00699070588235294,-0.0140881176470588,0.0170980588235294,0.00584594117647059,0.00141035294117647,-0.00782652941176471,0.00220188235294118,-0.0169332352941176,0.00223070588235294,0.0125474705882353,0.000253411764705882,0.00304641176470588,0.00200094117647059,0.000748647058823529,0.00417505882352941,-0.00283464705882353,-0.00584752941176471,-0.00190182352941176
X_ME:ARM_Masis_Blur_N:I3930,0.105855,0.153345,-0.066373,-0.086564,-0.016926,-0.034025,0.010105,-0.004384,-0.016975,0.015672,0.01153,0.001948,-0.011596,0.001376,-0.017915,0.009414,0.022426,-0.005828,-0.004525,0.006878,-0.002496,0.002968,-0.001972,-0.00494,-0.003113
X_ME:ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931,0.099026,0.127957,-0.07995,-0.059432,-0.047393,-0.009203,0.0094,-0.004154,-0.051335,-0.014943,0.006333,0.003297,-0.009514,-0.003441,-0.001764,0.014585,0.027902,0.002787,0.009427,-0.006128,0.013476,0.003833,-0.003944,0.002892,0.004311
X_ME:Levant_ISR_C:Avg,0.0883268666666667,0.166817533333333,-0.0497799333333333,-0.135381066666667,0.0152642666666667,-0.0625087333333333,-0.0117506,-0.0121532666666667,0.0520581333333333,0.0349528,0.0140736,-0.0152462666666667,0.0331512666666667,0.00417446666666667,-0.0157345333333333,0.00469373333333333,-0.0014778,0.00336986666666667,0.00239666666666667,0.0104716,0.0035936,0.0100323333333333,-0.0035248,-0.00216893333333333,-0.00403946666666667
X_ME:IRQ_Nemrik9_PPN:I6445,0.064879,0.13405,-0.080327,-0.07106,-0.048009,-0.015618,0.00423,-0.010384,-0.03211,-0.017312,0.00747,-0.007793,0.012042,0.003716,-0.007329,0.008353,0.006389,0.008995,0.000628,0.000375,0.016097,0.010263,-0.010106,-0.019641,0.00491
X_ME:TUR_E_Van_Urartian:I19612,0.099026,0.150298,-0.057699,-0.078812,-0.031083,-0.020917,0.003995,-0.003923,-0.009613,0.015672,0.006983,0.002248,-0.000446,0.00055,-0.013843,-0.011668,-0.006258,0.002914,0.001006,-0.009755,0.006364,0.001113,0.003081,-0.006145,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:Avg,0.1013028,0.1677656,-0.0296418,-0.1215134,0.02462,-0.0542722,-0.0085542,-0.003877,0.0224976,0.050844,0.0114646,-0.0008692,0.0029436,0.0021742,-0.0372958,-0.0118534,0.017367,0.0016976,0.0146062,-0.0011752,-0.0068382,0.0060342,0.0009858,-0.0057598,-0.0015806
X_ME:TUR_SE_Sirnak_C_A:I4483,0.072847,0.123895,-0.099183,-0.08398,-0.04647,-0.013945,0.001645,-0.003231,-0.024952,-0.011116,0.005846,-0.006294,0.013825,-0.001376,0.002307,0.012861,-0.016168,0.010008,0.018226,-0.019009,0,-0.001237,-0.001109,-0.025064,0.011496
X_ME:TUR_SE_Sirnak_C_B:I4622,0.08992,0.15436,-0.059962,-0.095608,-0.013849,-0.037092,0.001645,-0.017307,0.012067,0.011663,0.00682,-0.009891,0.011447,0.006055,-0.006107,-0.000133,0.000782,0.00266,0.006788,0.00075,0.002246,0.008037,-0.006409,-0.001084,0.010059
XX_ME:TUR_SE_Batman_Anc:I14635,0.101303,0.137096,-0.065242,-0.08398,-0.02739,-0.021753,-0.005405,-0.012923,-0.017998,0.003645,0.001299,0.00045,0.00669,-0.007294,-0.008958,0.020684,0.019297,0.001647,0.010056,-0.002751,0.000624,-0.000742,-0.007395,-0.001205,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_SE_Batman_C:I14627,0.086506,0.139128,-0.081081,-0.087533,-0.032621,-0.040718,-0.00141,0.001385,-0.017589,0.012392,0.00341,-0.006294,0.007582,0.007294,-0.016965,0.011403,0.001695,0.007855,0.011061,-0.014507,-0.002246,0,-0.005176,-0.009519,0.001916
Marocco_LN:KEB.4,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-0.0005,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191

 

[torzio]

Target: JapodesG25
Distance: 0.0091% / 0.00912015
38.0 2_Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER)
19.4 SRB_N
12.9 ITA_CA
12.8 HUN_LCA
6.3 1_Yamnaya_Avg
5.5 CZE_EE
5.1 GRC_N



Target: PCA0113
Distance: 0.0369% / 0.03685003
51.6 ITA_Broion_CA
30.5 1_Yamnaya_Avg
8.4 SRB_CBA
3.8 XX_ME
3.3 X_ME
2.4 GRC_N


PCA0113 looks like a typical venetic sample

 

[blevins13]

In Anthrogenica there was a little dispute about unrealistic models, trying to force model Illyrian profiles through a steppe and Albanian neolithic combination. The model fails because Illyrians do not start out in Albania, the only samples that can be modeled with Albanian neolithic are the R-PF7562/3 samples, even the ones from Pylos show some preference for Albanian neolithic. I spend some time playing around with Illyrians BA samples, which is tough for Adriatic Illyrians because they are all over the place, they do however show certain patterns even in their schizo profiles, but it becomes apparent once they are divided between male and female.

I'll start with Albanian MBA sample which I am certain is not Cetina but Belotic-Crkva dervied Illyrian. First look is the supplementary material from southern Arc.

The models will reject Albanian neolithic simply because the profile did not evolve in Albania during EBA like R-PF7563 carriers did. This is what my model shows:

The neolithic components of this inland J2b-L283 fellar are strictly Serbian and Hungarian. The geography hints Belotic-Crkva, which was known to be very similar to Cetina in material culture, but inland version in eastern Bosnia and western Serbia. The two samples from Macedonia that show similarity to Alb MBA are have also origins from the same region during EIA. I will describe their journey in another thread and keep this thread J2b centric.

Both Cetina and Belotic-Crkva likely originate further north in a earlier time in the area of eastern Vinkovci. They broke off from the Yamnaya block that was dominated by R-Z2103. The confusion is created by Cetina profiles because they absorbed a lot of Beaker aDNA when they took over the Adriatic from Beaker control.
The Cetina samples DNA are from the early onset of Cetina culture horizon, and the differences between males and females are drastic.

The difference of males and females for both Cetina and HRV MBA are of the same distance, by LBA this difference had subsided and the population profile had stabilized.

This how the samples score in the neolithic model.

Coastal Illyrians are very schizophrenic, sometimes non-sense noise is created such as Romanian neolithic, because of diverse inputs that make their profile. What stands out is the earliest J2b on the coast are Yamnaya, and inland neolithic, Cetina has good amount of Serbian neolithic similar to the Albanian MBA fellow, a good indication of their starting point and common origin. The females have obvious Beaker signal (Corded and Italian chalcolithic) and Albanian. The Albanian neolithic is not an error, HRV MBA samples are from near the Montenegrin border not far from Albania which before J2b showed up was dominated by R-PF7563, who carry a strong Alb neolithic component.

And to remove any doubt on the Alb neolithic component, R-PF7563 are the top scores and nearby non-Illyrian populations south-east of them.

1_Yamnaya_Avg:,0.120715777777778,0.0878996666666667,0.0439556111111111,0.113661111111111,-0.0293728888888889,0.0448704444444444,0.00420394444444444,-0.00333322222222222,-0.0553464444444444,-0.0740585555555556,0.000496055555555556,0.000366388888888889,-0.00175922222222222,-0.0232582222222222,0.0337866666666667,0.0136272222222222,-0.000992444444444444,-0.00304055555555556,-0.00233938888888889,0.0107411666666667,-0.00358394444444444,0.000583888888888889,0.0101952777777778,0.0198688333333333,-0.0037055
2_Corded_Ware_Early(POL_CZE_BALTIC_GER),0.1253507,0.10915866,0.056808809,0.089148191,0.0044132128,0.033087128,0.0037300426,0.00056465957,-0.028402702,-0.041441191,-0.0014857447,0.00009887234,-0.0056111064,-0.014620191,0.026595404,0.0083559362,-0.0093626809,0.0014421702,-0.0005696383,0.0058938085,0.0016965106,0.0034095532,0.0045051064,0.015449404,-0.0021528511
POL_BKG_N:Avg,0.121600833333333,0.171793666666667,0.0336266666666667,-0.0614238333333333,0.0693461666666667,-0.0323976666666667,0.000391666666666667,-0.000230833333333333,0.0459496666666667,0.0785738333333333,0.0023545,0.009391,-0.0177153333333333,0.00309666666666667,-0.0301073333333333,-0.00556883333333333,0.0116476666666667,0.00287166666666667,0.0128631666666667,-0.0093795,-0.0042425,0.00748116666666667,-0.00796983333333333,-0.0190388333333333,-0.00347283333333333
POL_Globular_Amphora:Avg,0.128294857142857,0.170101357142857,0.0588578571428571,-0.0259092142857143,0.0830045,-0.0214147857142857,0.00129257142857143,0.00702164285714286,0.0525772142857143,0.0728814285714286,0.000464,0.0100946428571429,-0.0171702142857143,-0.0066255,-0.0132132142857143,0.000606142857142857,0.00724564285714286,0.00614428571428571,0.00683264285714286,-5.35714285714284E-05,0.00962578571428572,0.00711878571428571,-0.0137949285714286,-0.0258728571428571,0.000213928571428572
CZE_EE:Avg,0.127237964285714,0.17097175,0.0509921071428571,-0.0404442142857143,0.0819822142857143,-0.0237257142857143,-0.000654642857142857,0.00443392857142857,0.0550607857142857,0.0779645357142857,0.000144928571428572,0.0109027857142857,-0.022315,-0.00614885714285714,-0.0161603214285714,0.000895,0.0154737142857143,0.004122,0.00753732142857143,-0.00224225,0.00953217857142857,0.006483,-0.01290575,-0.0280934285714286,0.000440464285714286
CZE_ME:Avg,0.124392285714286,0.169956214285714,0.0544939285714286,-0.0342841428571429,0.0824109285714286,-0.0206178571428571,0.000419714285714286,0.00456571428571428,0.0517447142857143,0.0746646428571428,0.00145,0.00639064285714286,-0.0203134285714286,-0.00460057142857143,-0.0150649285714286,-0.0001135,0.0111852142857143,0.00594535714285714,0.00472271428571429,-0.00364464285714286,0.00912671428571428,0.00552028571428571,-0.0128618571428571,-0.0287389285714286,0.000350714285714286
CZE_N:Avg,0.125611857142857,0.1793135,0.0332404285714286,-0.0636540714285714,0.0725628571428572,-0.0344431428571429,-0.00334035714285714,0.000164857142857143,0.049933,0.0792597142857143,0.00394357142857143,0.0102338571428571,-0.0220018571428571,0.000186785714285714,-0.0274639285714286,-0.0030685,0.0150593571428571,0.00213557142857143,0.010442,-0.00544014285714286,-0.000641785714285715,0.00774578571428571,-0.0089355,-0.0144768571428571,-0.00251485714285714
HRV_N:Avg,0.120146555555556,0.181140333333333,0.0140232962962963,-0.0905238518518519,0.0603644814814815,-0.0414411111111111,-0.003203,-0.00304266666666667,0.0446619259259259,0.0861436666666667,0.00674807407407407,0.0135491111111111,-0.0230973703703704,-0.0010142962962963,-0.0379764814814815,-0.0122081111111111,0.0167615185185185,0.000957222222222222,0.0104841481481481,-0.00956937037037037,-0.0106200740740741,0.00504222222222222,-0.00389837037037037,-0.005516,-0.00431981481481481
ITA_N:Avg,0.1237256,0.1804595,0.0142173,-0.0789412,0.0601651,-0.0393792,-0.0045356,-0.0041076,0.0448929,0.0854687,0.0034102,0.014537,-0.0250643,-0.0053535,-0.0301435,-0.0051974,0.0187754,0.0022805,0.0079819,-0.0086792,-0.0063386,0.0032891,-0.0049669,-0.0119414,-0.0007425
ITA_CA:Avg,0.124067285714286,0.179603857142857,0.0323248571428571,-0.0631234285714286,0.0695074285714286,-0.0337458571428571,-0.00419642857142857,-0.00286814285714286,0.0490857142857143,0.0880982857142857,0.00183257142857143,0.0137662857142857,-0.0266104285714286,-0.00241814285714286,-0.0206488571428571,-0.00505728571428571,0.0129078571428571,-0.000343857142857143,0.00585414285714286,-0.006789,-0.00262028571428571,0.0106341428571429,-0.0100887142857143,-0.0191248571428571,-0.000616
ITA_Sardinia_CA:Avg,0.128269846153846,0.179905,0.0428467692307692,-0.0568728461538461,0.0794230769230769,-0.0307423076923077,-0.00287430769230769,-0.000816461538461539,0.0587141538461538,0.100173923076923,0.000312153846153846,0.016589,-0.0345236153846154,-0.0154242307692308,-0.0181028461538462,-0.000173461538461539,0.0137606153846154,0.00343030769230769,0.00431238461538461,-0.011621,0.000873384615384615,0.00211146153846154,-0.0112913846153846,-0.0284284615384615,0.000902846153846154
ITA_Broion_CA,0.123498,0.1822875,0.024136,-0.059755,0.0678585,-0.0446225,-0.0074025,-0.001154,0.0447905,0.0835555,0.0026795,0.015586,-0.0250495,0.0070875,-0.0177115,-0.0066295,0.011278,0.001774,0.0065365,-0.009567,-0.013913,0.0168165,-0.0100445,-0.0148215,0.003712
HUN_Baden_LCA:Avg,0.127969857142857,0.175396428571429,0.0319475714285714,-0.0624774285714286,0.0690238571428571,-0.0312755714285714,-0.00238371428571429,0.000296571428571429,0.045667,0.0793247142857143,0.003248,0.0140447142857143,-0.0224901428571429,0.000334285714285714,-0.0286948571428571,-0.00750085714285714,0.0141,0.002588,0.012498,-0.008379,-0.00504471428571429,0.00575885714285714,-0.00485928571428571,-0.017145,0.000615714285714286
HUN_LCA:Avg,0.121790666666667,0.168578,0.02753,-0.0580323333333333,0.0702693333333333,-0.0269596666666667,-0.00203666666666667,-0.00161533333333333,0.040973,0.07988,0.001624,0.00959133333333333,-0.019772,0.00133033333333333,-0.029587,0.0122866666666667,0.0246423333333333,0.00540533333333333,0.00905,-0.00650333333333333,-0.00486633333333333,0.00865566666666667,-0.006286,-0.0130943333333333,-0.000359333333333333
HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA:Avg,0.127861333333333,0.177040666666667,0.0252673333333333,-0.0708446666666667,0.072321,-0.028726,-0.006502,0.000384666666666667,0.0489493333333333,0.080184,0.004276,0.007943,-0.0158076666666667,0.00477066666666667,-0.035785,-0.0132146666666667,0.00982233333333333,0.000126666666666667,0.0106006666666667,-0.00712866666666667,-0.00561533333333333,0.00255566666666667,-0.002917,-0.00887666666666667,-0.00303366666666667
ROU_N:Avg,0.1246365,0.18406475,0.0118795,-0.0973845,0.061396,-0.04894525,-0.00475875,-0.0047305,0.04637575,0.092075,0.006861,0.01442475,-0.0239715,0.0036815,-0.0477395,-0.01431975,0.019199,0.008203,0.01461225,-0.00912925,-0.01553525,0.006059,-0.00714825,0.0038255,-0.00874175
ROU_C:Avg,0.12548975,0.17060875,0.02413575,-0.063308,0.06578125,-0.03311825,0,-0.00080775,0.0411605,0.0726665,0.0031665,0.00966625,-0.0185455,-3.44999999999998E-05,-0.0303675,-0.0063975,0.0158415,0.00047525,0.013167,-0.00703475,-0.0031195,0.005348,-0.006686,-0.0146705,-0.0035925
Romania_Danubian_Avg,0.12206388,0.17239632,0.0131238,-0.07263624,0.0536468,-0.0339578,-0.0037788,-0.0011076,0.03319824,0.0707586,0.00535232,0.01061052,-0.01971836,0.00219084,-0.0328226,-0.00904268,0.0151506,0.0039122,0.00847196,-0.01024992,-0.00849008,0.00526256,-0.00603412,-0.01185212,-0.00199264
Rou_N_Bukovina_Average,0.119026571428571,0.174090857142857,0.0240278571428571,-0.0675992857142857,0.0573732857142857,-0.0287255714285714,-0.00271942857142857,-0.000593428571428572,0.0401451428571429,0.0737795714285714,0.00751614285714286,0.00854242857142857,-0.0177968571428571,0.00576028571428572,-0.0347057142857143,-0.0118192857142857,0.011101,-0.000271428571428571,0.00905028571428572,-0.00734271428571429,-0.00369,0.0127361428571429,-0.00271142857142857,-0.0101044285714286,-0.00410571428571429
Rou_N_Transylvania:Avg,0.1195145,0.17797175,0.0301695,-0.072029,0.06293475,-0.03116625,-0.00423,-0.00126925,0.04514825,0.07977375,0.005602,0.00809275,-0.024009,0.0051265,-0.0298585,-0.01382225,0.006291,-0.00053825,0.00817025,-0.0075975,-0.00383675,0.00608975,-0.00369725,-0.0170205,-0.00188625
SRB_N:Avg,0.129378666666667,0.183134,0.011188,-0.097869,0.0588826666666667,-0.0449943333333333,-0.00156666666666667,-0.00707666666666667,0.0407686666666667,0.0896603333333333,0.00319366666666667,0.015586,-0.0223486666666667,4.60000000000003E-05,-0.0417566666666667,-0.015513,0.0200356666666667,0.000253666666666667,0.0111033333333333,-0.0124643333333333,-0.00540733333333333,0.004328,-0.00772366666666667,0.00453866666666667,0.000279333333333333
SRB_CBA:Avg,0.1257745,0.1777175,0.02621,-0.071706,0.065243,-0.0355585,-0.0015275,-0.002308,0.0466315,0.0789995,0.003004,0.015436,-0.023414,0.004748,-0.0310125,-0.0127285,0.0215135,0.007728,0.007416,-0.004502,-0.006426,0.0057495,-0.0110305,-0.0181955,-0.0083225
ALB_MKD_NC:Avg,0.123687666666667,0.184149333333333,0.00251433333333333,-0.102175666666667,0.051394,-0.0469466666666667,-0.003525,-0.00246166666666667,0.040632,0.0840106666666667,0.00974333333333333,0.0125886666666667,-0.0262136666666667,0.00165166666666667,-0.0406706666666667,-0.0153803333333333,0.013299,0.002196,0.0104746666666667,-0.0162996666666667,-0.0124363333333333,0.00783133333333333,-0.00176666666666667,0.001205,-0.00782366666666667
GRC_N:Avg,0.11434043,0.17476338,-0.00569102347272727,-0.0961074378181818,0.0442878805454545,-0.0451802139090909,-0.00232870401818182,-0.00312569842727273,0.0294329064545455,0.0742363483636364,0.00602312088181818,0.0122209923,-0.0231369336363636,-0.00175160221454545,-0.0368419778181818,-0.00966696318181818,0.02345722,-1.1202545454546E-07,0.0101357883272727,-0.0137566630909091,-0.0164482572636364,0.00454137804545455,-0.003764604,-0.000832669090909091,-0.00628142412727273
GRC_Minoan:Avg,0.113823129172414,0.171239262413793,-0.0173345517862069,-0.0897720373793103,0.029013338862069,-0.0378425697586207,-0.00128038443793103,-0.00530746287241379,0.0129273328137931,0.0600625745517242,0.00485482718517241,0.0115913991055172,-0.0219761827103448,0.000930158292413793,-0.0310003162068965,-0.00806967234482759,0.0160507466013793,0.000825695220344827,0.0103895781103448,-0.0122084390589655,-0.0096295337,0.00387584341172414,-0.00334038353965517,0.00174102350517241,-0.00423666683482759
BGR_Varna_Avg,0.122802444444444,0.171398666666667,0.0149591111111111,-0.0665021111111111,0.0528985555555556,-0.0321964444444444,0.000182777777777778,-0.004128,0.0332692222222222,0.0686625555555555,0.00739755555555556,0.00637755555555556,-0.0178061111111111,0.00142211111111111,-0.0304766666666667,0.000721888888888889,0.0215567777777778,0.00215377777777778,0.00970655555555556,-0.005183,-0.00375722222222222,0.00513844444444444,-0.00861366666666667,-0.0157851111111111,-0.00497622222222222
BGR_Yunanitse:Avg,0.120317705882353,0.175149058823529,0.00525735294117647,-0.0834290588235294,0.0516656470588235,-0.0372235882352941,-0.000207352941176471,-0.00244335294117647,0.0336261764705882,0.0753920588235294,0.00482394117647059,0.0118835882352941,-0.0232786470588235,0.000963235294117647,-0.0363650588235294,-0.00938264705882353,0.0167428823529412,0.00155011764705882,0.0111649411764706,-0.00871729411764706,-0.00971817647058824,0.00584817647058824,-0.00314647058823529,-0.00649988235294118,-0.00307811764705882
X_ME:sha009_Shahtepe_IRN_CA_Avg,0.0827116666666667,0.0954596666666667,-0.098554,-0.00721366666666667,-0.087914,0.00920366666666667,0.00705,-0.00930733333333333,-0.0695383333333333,-0.035961,-0.000216333333333333,0.008842,-0.00966266666666667,-0.005826,0.012622,0.0255456666666667,0.00551933333333333,0.00287133333333333,0.00758366666666667,-0.016091,0.00465866666666667,-0.00919166666666667,-0.00369766666666667,-0.0207256666666667,0.0122943333333333
X_ME:ulu117_Ulucak_TUR_CA,0.105855,0.160454,-0.033564,-0.070414,0.001231,-0.019522,-0.00047,-0.008307,-0.00225,0.036083,0.008607,0.02293,-0.019921,0.002752,-0.015065,0.008486,0.037681,-0.000633,0.007416,-0.016633,0.000499,0.000495,-0.016269,0.001325,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_Arslantepe_LC:Avg,0.102239941176471,0.152329352941176,-0.0560578235294118,-0.0869250588235294,-0.0119297058823529,-0.0295459411764706,0.00110588235294118,-0.00699070588235294,-0.0140881176470588,0.0170980588235294,0.00584594117647059,0.00141035294117647,-0.00782652941176471,0.00220188235294118,-0.0169332352941176,0.00223070588235294,0.0125474705882353,0.000253411764705882,0.00304641176470588,0.00200094117647059,0.000748647058823529,0.00417505882352941,-0.00283464705882353,-0.00584752941176471,-0.00190182352941176
X_ME:ARM_Masis_Blur_N:I3930,0.105855,0.153345,-0.066373,-0.086564,-0.016926,-0.034025,0.010105,-0.004384,-0.016975,0.015672,0.01153,0.001948,-0.011596,0.001376,-0.017915,0.009414,0.022426,-0.005828,-0.004525,0.006878,-0.002496,0.002968,-0.001972,-0.00494,-0.003113
X_ME:ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931,0.099026,0.127957,-0.07995,-0.059432,-0.047393,-0.009203,0.0094,-0.004154,-0.051335,-0.014943,0.006333,0.003297,-0.009514,-0.003441,-0.001764,0.014585,0.027902,0.002787,0.009427,-0.006128,0.013476,0.003833,-0.003944,0.002892,0.004311
X_ME:Levant_ISR_C:Avg,0.0883268666666667,0.166817533333333,-0.0497799333333333,-0.135381066666667,0.0152642666666667,-0.0625087333333333,-0.0117506,-0.0121532666666667,0.0520581333333333,0.0349528,0.0140736,-0.0152462666666667,0.0331512666666667,0.00417446666666667,-0.0157345333333333,0.00469373333333333,-0.0014778,0.00336986666666667,0.00239666666666667,0.0104716,0.0035936,0.0100323333333333,-0.0035248,-0.00216893333333333,-0.00403946666666667
X_ME:IRQ_Nemrik9_PPN:I6445,0.064879,0.13405,-0.080327,-0.07106,-0.048009,-0.015618,0.00423,-0.010384,-0.03211,-0.017312,0.00747,-0.007793,0.012042,0.003716,-0.007329,0.008353,0.006389,0.008995,0.000628,0.000375,0.016097,0.010263,-0.010106,-0.019641,0.00491
X_ME:TUR_E_Van_Urartian:I19612,0.099026,0.150298,-0.057699,-0.078812,-0.031083,-0.020917,0.003995,-0.003923,-0.009613,0.015672,0.006983,0.002248,-0.000446,0.00055,-0.013843,-0.011668,-0.006258,0.002914,0.001006,-0.009755,0.006364,0.001113,0.003081,-0.006145,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:Avg,0.1013028,0.1677656,-0.0296418,-0.1215134,0.02462,-0.0542722,-0.0085542,-0.003877,0.0224976,0.050844,0.0114646,-0.0008692,0.0029436,0.0021742,-0.0372958,-0.0118534,0.017367,0.0016976,0.0146062,-0.0011752,-0.0068382,0.0060342,0.0009858,-0.0057598,-0.0015806
X_ME:TUR_SE_Sirnak_C_A:I4483,0.072847,0.123895,-0.099183,-0.08398,-0.04647,-0.013945,0.001645,-0.003231,-0.024952,-0.011116,0.005846,-0.006294,0.013825,-0.001376,0.002307,0.012861,-0.016168,0.010008,0.018226,-0.019009,0,-0.001237,-0.001109,-0.025064,0.011496
X_ME:TUR_SE_Sirnak_C_B:I4622,0.08992,0.15436,-0.059962,-0.095608,-0.013849,-0.037092,0.001645,-0.017307,0.012067,0.011663,0.00682,-0.009891,0.011447,0.006055,-0.006107,-0.000133,0.000782,0.00266,0.006788,0.00075,0.002246,0.008037,-0.006409,-0.001084,0.010059
XX_ME:TUR_SE_Batman_Anc:I14635,0.101303,0.137096,-0.065242,-0.08398,-0.02739,-0.021753,-0.005405,-0.012923,-0.017998,0.003645,0.001299,0.00045,0.00669,-0.007294,-0.008958,0.020684,0.019297,0.001647,0.010056,-0.002751,0.000624,-0.000742,-0.007395,-0.001205,0.00012
X_ME:TUR_SE_Batman_C:I14627,0.086506,0.139128,-0.081081,-0.087533,-0.032621,-0.040718,-0.00141,0.001385,-0.017589,0.012392,0.00341,-0.006294,0.007582,0.007294,-0.016965,0.011403,0.001695,0.007855,0.011061,-0.014507,-0.002246,0,-0.005176,-0.009519,0.001916
Marocco_LN:KEB.4,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-0.0005,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191

Model seems very different now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ghurier]

This paper is amazing.
Still, I'm always skeptical about language-based divergence-times estmations.

At least the proposal here of having IE-language being rooted in CHG/Iran-population is interesting.
Genetically speaking it can work.
But, everythng depends on the divergence-times, if later dates are favored, then potential cultural and/or DNA links are drastically changing.

In fact, I'm surprised to see them proposing a northern route for Indo-Iranic in their version (with the divergence time they have). Maybe they did it in an attempt to "play soft" on the southern solution.

 

[Glitch]

So I have no life and was going through ancient sample spreadsheets and came across a study of medieval German plague victims. Thus, we have three new samples from Ellwangen, Germany. I also included a fourth sample (ELW013 - J-M205) which could potentially be a misread:

[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Sample ID[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Age (ybp) *[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Country / Language[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Haplogroup (Y)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Haplogroup (Mt)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Source[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ELW013[/TD]
[TD]1,486–1,627 calAD[/TD]
[TD]CEU_EM[/TD]
[TD]J-M205[/TD]
[TD]T1a1b3[/TD]
[TD]https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/10/4059/6277413[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ELW025[/TD]
[TD]1,486–1,627 calAD[/TD]
[TD]CEU_EM[/TD]
[TD]J-Y15058[/TD]
[TD]T2b[/TD]
[TD]https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/10/4059/6277414[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ELW032[/TD]
[TD]1,486–1,627 calAD[/TD]
[TD]CEU_EM[/TD]
[TD]J-L283[/TD]
[TD]J2a1a1[/TD]
[TD]https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/10/4059/6277412[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ELW038[/TD]
[TD]1,486–1,627 calAD[/TD]
[TD]CEU_EM[/TD]
[TD]J-L283[/TD]
[TD]H10e[/TD]
[TD]https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/38/10/4059/6277411[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Also I've collected some other samples which through logical reasoning can be deduced to be J2b-L283 despite being low coverage samples:

[TABLE="width: 0"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Sample ID[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Age (ybp) *[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Country / Language[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Haplogroup (Y)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Haplogroup (Mt)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2F2F2"]Source[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]N20[/TD]
[TD]530-600 AD[/TD]
[TD]Netherlands_Merovingian[/TD]
[TD]J-M241[/TD]
[TD]?[/TD]
[TD]https://www.academia.edu/10159018/2...age_Archeologische_Monumentenzorg_222_211_220[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]I19031[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]2000-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]HRV_Cetina_BA[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]J-M102[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]J1c1[/TD]
[TD]https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]I19030[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]2000-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]HRV_MBA[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]n/a (low coverage)[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]J1c1[/TD]
[TD]https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]I19026[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]2000-1600 BCE[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]HRV_Cetina_BA[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]J-M102[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #F8F9FA"]J1c1[/TD]
[TD]https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]I14499[/TD]
[TD]1450-1250 BCE[/TD]
[TD]MNE_LBA[/TD]
[TD]J2(b-L283?) 2nd or 3rd degree relative to I13777 and I13169 L283 samples)[/TD]
[TD]H3z1[/TD]
[TD]https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]