• Don't want to see ads? Install an adblocker like uBlock Origin or use a Europe-based privacy-friendly browser like Vivaldi or Mullvad.

The Roopkund Lake Greeks again

Ok, Greeks and a few Salentini? :)

Seriously, I think Aegean Greeks with some mainland ones and maybe an Anatolian one makes the most sense. Armenian is silly. They're quite different.

I don't see why it's such a surprise. Greek merchants went everywhere. There are reports they were in India for centuries.
 
Angela said:
See:
https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2020...tter&utm_campaign=the-greeks-in-the-mountains
The New Yorker article Razib is discussing:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/12/14/the-skeletons-at-the-lake
Click to expand...
I disagree with razib
I don't think they were aegean or anatolian greeks
I think they were south italians....:thinking:
As mention by salento some of them carried mtdna h12
a mtdna type that is found in south italy and rare in aegean coast of anatolia....:thinking:

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h12_genbank_sequences.htm

Also one of individuals belong to e-fgc18401 this is an e-m84 branch who is found more in sicily calabria than aegean anatolia ..
In anatolia e-fgc18401 is much more prevelent in south east turkey
 
Deleted by me.
 
... if the dates are correct, there are two separate groups, I think they’re from the same place (matching haplogroups), ... probably common travel routes for these people, ... or a tragic rescue mission.
 
Angela said:
Ok, Greeks and a few Salentini? :)

Seriously, I think Aegean Greeks with some mainland ones and maybe an Anatolian one makes the most sense. Armenian is silly. They're quite different.

I don't see why it's such a surprise. Greek merchants went everywhere. There are reports they were in India for centuries.
Click to expand...

No, merchants don't really work, whether they were from southern Italy or the Aegean, as no trade goods were found, and the location is not on a trade route.

The historians of the area and time also insist there is absolutely no record of a group of 100 foreigners in that area during that time period. It was a pilgrimage site and there is no record of Mediterraneans converting to Hinduism.

The other possibility, a relic group of Greeks from antiquity was also investigated and didn't work because they're not related to any group living there now, and most important, their diet was "Mediterranean", which it wouldn't be if they'd been living isolated in Asia for centuries upon centuries.


"Could Roopkund B have come from an unsampled population in India descended from Greeks or a related group? In this scenario, an enclave of migrants to India never admixed with South Asians, and retained their genetic heritage. But the genetics of Roopkund B, showing no sign of isolation or inbreeding, ruled this out, too. And then there was the stubborn fact that the Roopkund B people ate a diet more consistent with the Mediterranean than with India. The evidence pointed to one conclusion: they were Mediterranean travellers who somehow got to Roopkund, where they died in a single, terrible event. "

I guess it's going to remain a mystery for a while.
 
... Kit re-upload

Chroma-Analysis:

I3404 (mt H12) and I3403 (y T1a2) have a relation on my chrome, and they're more Roman like than Greek.

... maybe 2 of my Haplos and chrome affinities with these “relatives” found in a frozen lake is just a huge coincidence :)

I also have chrome affinities with some of the other lost Travelers.


9KZFMhw.jpg


gMf4F3z.jpg


I3404 (mtDNA H12)
1. Italian_Abruzzo (7.000)
2. West_Sicilian (7.281)
3. Tuscan (8.005)
4. Greek (9.099)
5. Albanian_Tosk (9.192)
6. Central_Greek (9.730)
7. East_Sicilian (10.55)
8. South_Italian (11.00)

I3403 (y T1a2)
1. West_Sicilian (12.23)
2. Tuscan (12.93)
3. South_Italian (14.48)
4. Italian_Abruzzo (14.51)
5. East_Sicilian (15.27)
6. Central_Greek (15.57)
7. Italian_Jewish (15.63)
8. Greek_Thessaly (16.80)
 
It could be just conjecture, ...
It's strange that there aren’t any records on these missing groups of people, ... It wasn't that long ago.

No one noticed they went missing? ... maybe they weren't important enough, ... Now they've become important, good for them.
 
Salento said:
... Kit re-upload

Chroma-Analysis:

I3404 (mt H12) and I3403 (y T1a2) have a relation on my chrome, and they're more Roman like than Greek.

... maybe 2 of my Haplos and chrome affinities with these “relatives” found in a frozen lake is just a huge coincidence :)

I also have chrome affinities with some of the other lost Travelers.


9KZFMhw.jpg


gMf4F3z.jpg


I3404 (mtDNA H12)
1. Italian_Abruzzo (7.000)
2. West_Sicilian (7.281)
3. Tuscan (8.005)
4. Greek (9.099)
5. Albanian_Tosk (9.192)
6. Central_Greek (9.730)
7. East_Sicilian (10.55)
8. South_Italian (11.00)

I3403 (y T1a2)
1. West_Sicilian (12.23)
2. Tuscan (12.93)
3. South_Italian (14.48)
4. Italian_Abruzzo (14.51)
5. East_Sicilian (15.27)
6. Central_Greek (15.57)
7. Italian_Jewish (15.63)
8. Greek_Thessaly (16.80)
Click to expand...

Salento, are people from Crete, or Anatolian Greeks, in the reference sample?

Conversely, does anyone know if Southern Italians were included as references in the study which concluded they were Aegean Greeks?
 
Angela said:
Salento, are people from Crete, or Anatolian Greeks, in the reference sample?

Conversely, does anyone know if Southern Italians were included as references in the study which concluded they were Aegean Greeks?
Click to expand...

I don’t know Angela, ... but the established Messapi may have been a combination of Italic, Crete / Illyria and maybe a bit of Aegean-Anatolian, Full Circle, maybe there's some of these ancient connections to some of the Travelers :)

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapi
 
Michalis Moriopoulos over at Razib's blog posted ,among others, their closest populations using G25 coordinates.
https://i.imgur.com/o9MmrW1.png

Imho they look like perfectly normal Greeks. A couple of them seem to be closer to Italian populations and as I understand some have haplogroups more typical of them but as some say that could be just a part of the Aegean genetic variation...
There were and still are Greek Catholics on some islands of the Aegean too, most of them must have been locals who converted to Catholicism but a limited genetic contribution from Italian settlers can't be excluded.

In any case, having all these Aegean like samples along with the mainlander-like and Cappadocian outliers means that most Greeks should be easily modeled with just them and with great fits.

As an example, my Greek friend
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...sults-(ancestry-from-multiple-greek-regions-)
and his mother not only get very good models and fits but also the samples (and percentages ) chosen by the tool work very well as proxies for their ancestries. especially for his mother .

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Chris_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #78FF00, align: right"]0.02345751[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3404[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A0FF00, align: right"]0.03144237[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I2869[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]0.03294157[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3405[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]0.03424486[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6936[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B9FF00, align: right"]0.03621881[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6939[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03654188[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3403[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]0.03700118[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3348[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]0.03870508[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3345[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CAFF00, align: right"]0.03953774[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3350[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]0.04033429[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC000, align: right"]0.06244168[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]ChrisMom_scaled[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]0.02832175[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3348[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #94FF00, align: right"]0.02908161[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6937[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03645929[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3405[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03730029[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I2869[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]0.03737566[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6939[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]0.04109662[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3404[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]0.04182255[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3403[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04554642[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I6936[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F5FF00, align: right"]0.04803822[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3345[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05108572[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B:I3350[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF400, align: right"]0.05221342[/TD]
[TD]IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Distance: 1.3066% / 0.01306632
Target: Chris_scaled[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]47.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I3404[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I6939[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]14.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I3345[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I3348[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.9[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I6936[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I2869[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.9[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Distance: 1.7757% / 0.01775656
Target: ChrisMom_scaled[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]38.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I3348[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]18.5[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B_o:I6935[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]15.7[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I6937[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.7[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I3404[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I6939[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.9[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IND_Roopkund_B:I6936[/TD]
 
When I have time, I am going to process these Roopkund samples.

I see a lot of disinformation/confusion on Anthrogenica. Such as their labeling the ML Antonio et al. 2019 samples. They falsely assign "Eastern Mediterranean" to samples that are not in the C5 cluster, which is actually "Eastern Mediterranean". According to the actual study, they are C6. So my faith in their analysis is not that great to say the least.
 
According to the post, it is hard to tell the difference between Aegean Greeks, South Italians and Western Jews? Actually, I think it is very easy, if you analyze the samples with a 3D PCA. While they seem as though they cluster in a 2D representation, along with some shared source populations; the Z axis distinguishes them. Western Jewish populations, like their Middle eastern counterparts are shifted on the Z axis toward Natufians. Which is why they are shifted a closer towards modern North African populations, who also have Natufian-like heritage. The ancient Jews were surely descended partly from Natufians, and modern Western Jews are surely partly descended from Ancient Jews.

AlysaPz.png
 
Jovialis said:
According to the post, it is hard to tell the difference between Aegean Greeks, South Italians and Western Jews? Actually, I think it is very easy, if you analysis the samples with a 3D PCA. While they seem as though they cluster in a 2D representation, along with some shared source populations; the Z axis distinguishes them. Western Jewish populations, like their Middle eastern counterparts are shifted on the Z axis toward Natufians. Which is why they are shifted a closer towards modern North African populations, who also have Natufian-like heritage. The ancient Jews were surely descended partly from Natufians, and modern Western Jews are surely partly descended from Ancient Jews.

AlysaPz.png
Click to expand...

Excellent. Is it possible to label the Aegean Greek cluster?

There's no use paying attention to anything anthrogenica has to say on the subject. Data is never going to be allowed to get in the way of their dogmas.
 
Angela said:
Excellent. Is it possible to label the Aegean Greek cluster?

There's no use paying attention to anything anthrogenica has to say on the subject. Data is never going to be allowed to get in the way of their dogmas.
Click to expand...

I had composed the PCA with the aDNA samples I produced, (over 2,000, with more to come), along with the original Dodecad G13 populations from Dienekes' spreadsheet. I also added in the individual HGDP samples, which I obtained the CSVs from Genetic Geneology Blog's google drive.

There is a modern DNA study I found on the Reich Lab dataset list that I am meaning to do which includes a Crete sample. I want to expand on the modern population list as much as possible. However, it is actually more difficult to obtain modern DNA, than aDNA. Mostly due to getting permission from data banks.
 
Jovialis said:
I had composed the PCA with the aDNA samples I produced, (over 2,000, with more to come), along with the original Dodecad G13 populations from Dienekes' spreadsheet. I also added in the individual HGDP samples, which I obtained the CSVs from Genetic Geneology Blog's google drive.

There is a modern DNA study I found on the Reich Lab dataset list that I am meaning to do which includes a Crete sample. I want to expand on the modern population list as much as possible. However, it is actually more difficult to obtain modern DNA, than aDNA. Mostly due to getting permission from data banks.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, the only issue I have found is that these files are extremely large, some over 200 GBs. Which could be problematic for processing and producing raw data.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB9586
 
... from Post #13 (lacreme).

The G25 results of the samples with Haplogroups y T1a2 (I3403) and mt H12 (I3404 / I6937)

(Basilicata and Puglia border each other)
I’m not familiar with G25, ... anyway:

uQksgTa.jpg


... the first 2 samples could be at the edge of being either, ... I guess.

... maybe they’re Greek, with a chunk of Southern Italian ancestry, ... I guess.
 
Edit... deleted ...

IdrSkXx.jpg
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top