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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Demetrios said:
@Jovialis, does I8215 (NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)) have a GEDmatch kit number? If not, can we create one by using the file from ENA, https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/SAMEA5229461? It would be interesting to test what @ihype02 mentioned. There are five samples from Empúries making the Aegean BA cluster (Empúries2), but I8215 is the one plotting the closest to the modern Sicilian, southern Italian, and Greek clusters. It also happens to be the oldest of the five, dated to 400-350 BCE.
Click to expand...
Mycenaean:I9041 is closer to Sicilians.
Mycenaean:I9006 and Mycenaean:I9033 are really close to the Thracian.
And the Mycenean left shifts towards Minoans.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...By-Eupedia-Team-WIP/page5?p=613378#post613378

Palermo Trapani in post 113 is only a bit closer to I9006 and I9033 than to Bulgaria_IA.


PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally on a microscopic level. On an other academic PCA with lots of South Italians samples shows Myceneans as Sicilian-like population running towards Minoans and not overlapping with Sicilians, but still very close though.
 
ihype02 said:
Mycenaean:I9041 is closer to Sicilians.
Mycenaean:I9006 and Mycenaean:I9033 are really close to the Thracian.
And the Mycenean left shifts towards Minoans.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...By-Eupedia-Team-WIP/page5?p=613378#post613378
Palermo Trapani in post 113 is only a bit closer to I9006 and I9033 than to Bulgaria_IA.
PCAs are not meant to be taken 100% literally on a microscopic level. On an other academic PCA with lots of South Italians samples shows Myceneans as Sicilian-like population running towards Minoans and not overlapping with Sicilians, but still very close though.
Click to expand...
I9006 along with I9010 are the ones furthest from the IA Thracian sample (I5769) both in the Dodecad K7b distance per population shared above by @Jovialis and the Eurogenes K15 PCA shared by me. I9033 and I9041 (along with the I9123 - Crete Armenoi) are plotting the closest to the IA Thracian sample. Anyway, i was referring to the Iberian samples from Empúries and more specifically to I8215. I would be interested to analyze it more.
 
Sorry Demetrios I mixed those samples. Two of those samples are really close to Thracians one of those is really close to Minoans.
I wonder from which region this Minoan shifted Mycenean comes from? Is the I9006 the Minoan-like one?
I8215 Empuries Greek settler - kit number FM5677291
One of the two Empuries is even closer than the 4 Mycenaeans samples are.
 
bigsnake49 said:
How well are the common people represented in ancient genetics? Are we just testing the elite and then generalizing about the farmers and the shepherds and the artisans? We know for sure that the Mycenaeans were bigger (taller and sturdier) than the common folk. Was there a stratification between the warrior class and the commoners? Were the commoners perhaps Pelasgians?
Click to expand...
Regarding the first question. In the case of our paper, and more specifically in the case of the Mycenaean samples, we are informed of the following in the Supplementary Information (pages 5-13). Specifically:

The chamber tombs at APATHEIA
I9010 = Mycenaean - Galatas Apatheia Peloponnese
I9041 = Mycenaean - Galatas Apatheia Peloponnese
Relevant quote: "Those tombs held the burials of ordinary people, judging by the few, common-type furnishings of the deceased." (page 6)

The chamber tombs at SALAMINA
I9006 = Mycenaean - Agia Kyriaki Salamis
Relevant quote: "In addition to a large number of clay vessels, the furnishings of the deceased included faience jewelry and some objects of bronze, indicating that the individuals buried in that tomb were wealthier than the average people, although they may not be viewed as members of a ruling elite, judging by the absence of any prestige items in the grave offerings." (page 7)

Mycenaean cemetery of the Peristeria citadel in Trifylia
I9033 = Mycenaean - Peristeria Tryfilia Peloponnese
Relevant quote: "The finds from the Peristeria tombs reveal that the deceased belonged to the ruling class." (page 12)

So, there is variety (from a social point of view) among the published samples. Nonetheless, it's always good to have a larger sample size, but in the case of ancient samples that's not always a possibility. Aside of the ancient remains being more limited altogether, there is also the aspect of quality, with many remains of ancient people lacking a number of alleles, rendering their analysis either difficult, deficient, or impossible.
 
ihype02 said:
Sorry Demetrios I mixed those samples. Two of those samples are really close to Thracians one of those is really close to Minoans.
I wonder from which region this Minoan shifted Mycenean comes from? Is the I9006 the Minoan-like one?
I8215 Empuries Greek settler - kit number FM5677291
One of the two Empuries is even closer than the 4 Mycenaeans samples are.
Click to expand...
No worries.

It's actually I9010 that has more drift towards the Neolithic sample of Diros (I2937) and some Minoan samples over some of the Mycenaean. I9006 is also a mixed case.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]6.26202843[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.95907658[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.15601005[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBC00, align: right"]9.45752610[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA300, align: right"]10.21212025[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.60008491[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.66426744[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.68671746[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4C00, align: right"]12.75754679[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1B00, align: right"]14.19720395[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001D, align: right"]15.85362419[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0025, align: right"]16.10267680[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0027, align: right"]16.14108423[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.39047894[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CE, align: right"]21.05229916[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F2, align: right"]22.11357049[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CF00FF, align: right"]23.91900082[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4300FF, align: right"]28.02748472[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]7.18185909[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]8.62114842[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.39226277[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]10.14442704[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9500, align: right"]10.62912038[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.66738018[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.41716252[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.08549579[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.45636652[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.71475118[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1F00, align: right"]14.09673012[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1B00, align: right"]14.19720395[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1400, align: right"]14.40315590[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001B, align: right"]15.78482499[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0023, align: right"]16.02519579[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003E, align: right"]16.81129382[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0062, align: right"]17.89619513[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F300FF, align: right"]22.85718705[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Also, it turns out that per Dodecad K7b the I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) sample doesn't have any greater drift towards the IA Thracian sample. It has a similar distance as the Crete-Armenoi sample.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]4.12739627[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]5.78120230[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]7.09888724[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]7.12860435[/TD]
[TD]I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAA00, align: right"]10.01396026[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6900, align: right"]11.92437000[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0015, align: right"]15.62154282[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001F, align: right"]15.91051225[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0034, align: right"]16.51574400[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0046, align: right"]17.05560612[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.64191033[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005E, align: right"]17.75222803[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B5, align: right"]20.31903541[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BA, align: right"]20.48286113[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.19864147[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DA, align: right"]21.41230020[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E6, align: right"]21.77132518[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FD, align: right"]22.45279047[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B600FF, align: right"]24.64989452[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5100FF, align: right"]27.62258315[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here it is as TARGET also, having the closest distance to I9041.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]1.46092436[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]5.84780301[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]7.12860435[/TD]
[TD]Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.33842911[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD000, align: right"]8.87579856[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC200, align: right"]9.29045747[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]9.58825323[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.05199529[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6C00, align: right"]11.81064774[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4A00, align: right"]12.81245488[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.91400403[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.46186466[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]14.00087854[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.70148292[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.85835792[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0002, align: right"]15.05638071[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.38226480[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.55694449[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59957526[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.21154167[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But per the Eurogenes K15 PCA it appears very slightly closer to the IA Thracian sample.

K15-V4-Balkan-Samples-CROPPED.png
 
Demetrios said:
No worries.

It's actually I9010 that has more drift towards the Neolithic sample of Diros (I2937) and some Minoan samples over some of the Mycenaean. I9006 is also a mixed case.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D5FF00, align: right"]6.26202843[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEF00, align: right"]7.95907658[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]8.15601005[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBC00, align: right"]9.45752610[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA300, align: right"]10.21212025[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9600, align: right"]10.60008491[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.66426744[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.68671746[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4C00, align: right"]12.75754679[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1B00, align: right"]14.19720395[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001D, align: right"]15.85362419[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0025, align: right"]16.10267680[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0027, align: right"]16.14108423[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.39047894[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00CE, align: right"]21.05229916[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00F2, align: right"]22.11357049[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CF00FF, align: right"]23.91900082[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #4300FF, align: right"]28.02748472[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]7.18185909[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]8.62114842[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBF00, align: right"]9.39226277[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA500, align: right"]10.14442704[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9500, align: right"]10.62912038[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.66738018[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7A00, align: right"]11.41716252[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.08549579[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.45636652[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2C00, align: right"]13.71475118[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1F00, align: right"]14.09673012[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1B00, align: right"]14.19720395[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1400, align: right"]14.40315590[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001B, align: right"]15.78482499[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0023, align: right"]16.02519579[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF003E, align: right"]16.81129382[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0062, align: right"]17.89619513[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F300FF, align: right"]22.85718705[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Also, it turns out that per Dodecad K7b the I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2) sample doesn't have any greater drift towards the IA Thracian sample. It has a similar distance as the Crete-Armenoi sample.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]4.12739627[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]5.78120230[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]7.09888724[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]7.12860435[/TD]
[TD]I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAA00, align: right"]10.01396026[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6900, align: right"]11.92437000[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0015, align: right"]15.62154282[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF001F, align: right"]15.91051225[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0034, align: right"]16.51574400[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0046, align: right"]17.05560612[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005A, align: right"]17.64191033[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005E, align: right"]17.75222803[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B5, align: right"]20.31903541[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BA, align: right"]20.48286113[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.19864147[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00DA, align: right"]21.41230020[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00E6, align: right"]21.77132518[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FD, align: right"]22.45279047[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B600FF, align: right"]24.64989452[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #5100FF, align: right"]27.62258315[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Here it is as TARGET also, having the closest distance to I9041.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I8215-NE_Iberia_Greek(Empúries2)[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #32FF00, align: right"]1.46092436[/TD]
[TD]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]5.84780301[/TD]
[TD]I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]7.12860435[/TD]
[TD]Balkans_IronAge:I5769_Bulgaria_IA[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]8.33842911[/TD]
[TD]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD000, align: right"]8.87579856[/TD]
[TD]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC200, align: right"]9.29045747[/TD]
[TD]I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB800, align: right"]9.58825323[/TD]
[TD]I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.05199529[/TD]
[TD]I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6C00, align: right"]11.81064774[/TD]
[TD]I9127_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4A00, align: right"]12.81245488[/TD]
[TD]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.91400403[/TD]
[TD]I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3400, align: right"]13.46186466[/TD]
[TD]I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]14.00087854[/TD]
[TD]I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0A00, align: right"]14.70148292[/TD]
[TD]I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.85835792[/TD]
[TD]I2495_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0002, align: right"]15.05638071[/TD]
[TD]I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.38226480[/TD]
[TD]I2499_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.55694449[/TD]
[TD]I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007A, align: right"]18.59957526[/TD]
[TD]I9128_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00D3, align: right"]21.21154167[/TD]
[TD]I2683_Bronze_Age_Anatolian_Harmanӧren-GӧndürleHӧyük_Isparta[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

But per the Eurogenes K15 PCA it appears very slightly closer to the IA Thracian sample.

K15-V4-Balkan-Samples-CROPPED.png
Click to expand...


Great data

Can you place sample R1 into the above................I would like to see how close it is from I3313 sample
 
torzio said:
Great data

Can you place sample R1 into the above................I would like to see how close it is from I3313 sample
Click to expand...
Do you mean I3499 (Vucedol) dated to 2884-2666 BCE, with Y-DNA R1b-Z2103? I would, but it falls in the category of those samples with outdated or deleted GEDmatch kits. For example the kit number i have, namely JM8436604, doesn't load and gives me the message "ERROR: Kit number |JM8436604| not found.".
 
I am looking foward the other Empuries. There are two of them. I will post the kit number when I find it.
 
ihype02 said:
I am looking foward the other Empuries. There are two of them. I will post the kit number when I find it.
Click to expand...
Great, i would like to add them as well. One of the two NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2), i believe I8216, is pretty much sub-clustering with the prior (I8215) sample i shared. Again, there are a total of five samples that make the Aegean BA (Empúries2) cluster. Specifically:
I8215 - NE_Iberia_Greek (Empúries2)
I8205 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2)
I8208 - NE_Iberia_Hel (Empúries2)
I8216 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2)
I8338 - NE_Iberia_RomP (Empúries2)
I don't think all of them have a GEDmatch kit number, but whatever you find will be appreciated.
 
Demetrios said:
Do you mean I3499 (Vucedol) dated to 2884-2666 BCE, with Y-DNA R1b-Z2103? I would, but it falls in the category of those samples with outdated or deleted GEDmatch kits. For example the kit number i have, namely JM8436604, doesn't load and gives me the message "ERROR: Kit number |JM8436604| not found.".
Click to expand...

no, I meant this one

R1, proto-Villanovan, 930 - 839 calBCE


Though sample I4332 , the bronze-age Dalmatian is closer than the other Dalmatians to myself
 
torzio said:
no, I meant this one

R1, proto-Villanovan, 930 - 839 calBCE


Though sample I4332 , the bronze-age Dalmatian is closer than the other Dalmatians to myself
Click to expand...
I see. Are you aware of its Eurogenes K15 coordinates or GEDmatch kit number because i cannot find anything relevant? From a quick search, i see that @Jovialis (here) was planning to share it after you asked for it some 9 months ago. Do you recall if it was published later in the thread?
 
I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:


Although “White” Supremacists like to be antisemitic, here is something Hitler would have hated: Ancient Greeks were genetically as close to Ancient Levantines as they were to the so called “Aryans”. It just happened that Ancient Greeks spoke an Indo-European language while Ancient Levantines spoke a Semitic one. Ancient Greeks, it turns out, have an Anatolian origin (and Levantines are mostly Anatolian and Iranian). This was shown in recent paper, Lazaridis et al. (2017) who looked at Bronze Age and modern Greeks. And modern Greeks descend mostly from Bronze Age Greeks. In other words, if you want to see how ancient Greeks looked like, go no further than your local diner in Astoria, Queens.

https://medium.com/east-med-project-history-philology-and-genetics/something-nordic-supremacists-will-not-like-44d99e8a4188
Click to expand...

I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
 
Last edited:
Jovialis said:
I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:




I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
Click to expand...

Consider the fact that Yamnaya is 40% CHG in this model. You could say so-call "Aryans", like the English, have a lot of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them too.

F77Fxe3.jpg
 
Jovialis said:
I found this article, and honestly, I think it has some inaccurate information in it:




I don't understand, people who are so-called "Aryans", i.e. Northern Europeans, also have of Anatolian and Iranian (CHG) in them, by way of Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, and CHG via Yamnaya ancestry. Also, he is not mentioning the fact that Ancient Levantines also have a lot of Natufian-like ancestry, which is not found in Ancient Greeks. Moreover, Ancient Greeks, are further distinguished by their Steppe component. I saw on Twitter that he said that J1 was found among the Myceaneans, but this was corrected by Lazaridis himself, who stated it was actually found among one of the SW Anatolians.

The Ancient Greeks were Southern Europeans. Period.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. You've hit all the reasons why he's wrong. It's a toss up whether he doesn't understand the genetics or is just deliberately ignoring it. Everybody in Europe has ancestry from Anatolian farmers, and everybody in Europe has ancestry from CHG, who are just Iran Neo with a little EHG added. The only thing that changes is the percentages.

He's considered, at least by himself, a prominent "public intellectual". :) The problem, and what makes him controversial, is that a lot of his opinions spring from his emotional reaction living as an "Arab" in what he considers a "Nordic/White" dominant world. He's just another Middle Easterner who wants to claim Greeks for his own ethnicity, no different from the Germans who wanted to do the same.
 
Angela said:
I couldn't agree more. You've hit all the reasons why he's wrong. It's a toss up whether he doesn't understand the genetics or is just deliberately ignoring it. Everybody in Europe has ancestry from Anatolian farmers, and everybody in Europe has ancestry from CHG, who are just Iran Neo with a little EHG added. The only thing that changes is the percentages.

He's considered, at least by himself, a prominent "public intellectual". :) The problem, and what makes him controversial, is that a lot of his opinions spring from his emotional reaction living as an "Arab" in what he considers a "Nordic/White" dominant world. He's just another Middle Easterner who wants to claim Greeks for his own ethnicity, no different from the Germans who wanted to do the same.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, that is what I get from it as well. I think it is a combination of ignorance, and perhaps willfully ignoring parts that he doesn't like.
 
^^also, I whole heartedly agree that this is just another case of an outside group trying to lay claim to the legacy of the Ancient Greeks. Nevertheless the truth is in the facts, no matter how people try to shoehorn their way into it. Under all the sophistry, the truth always lies in wait.
 
Last edited:
blevins13 said:
The interesting part is the Anatolian origin of the Greeks. I guess I am not the only one who sees this obvious connection.


https://medium.com/east-med-project...ordic-supremacists-will-not-like-44d99e8a4188


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
Click to expand...

Nassim Taleb is a polemicist, not a geneticist. He doesn't want the Lebanese to be "Arabs" so he makes incorrect claims about the amount of J1 in Lebanon, a claim which Haber had to correct.

He wants to claim the Greeks so he makes claims about how "Anatolian" they are, as if having Anatolian ancestry in Europe is a rarity or a surprise to anyone. Indeed, I'm shocked that it's a surprise to "you".

Did you look at the graph? It came out in 2015. Where have you been Blevin? The Spanish are heavy in Anatolian, as are Italians, and the Southern French, and Albanians like you, as a subset of Greek,s are just as high in it as Greeks. Even the English and the Germans are about 40% Anatolian in that graph. Then you can add in all the CHG.

So, I fail to see what point you're making.
 
Angela said:
Nassim Taleb is a polemicist, not a geneticist. He doesn't want the Lebanese to be "Arabs" so he makes incorrect claims about the amount of J1 in Lebanon, a claim which Haber had to correct.

He wants to claim the Greeks so he makes claims about how "Anatolian" they are, as if having Anatolian ancestry in Europe is a rarity or a surprise to anyone. Indeed, I'm shocked that it's a surprise to "you".

Did you look at the graph? It came out in 2015. Where have you been Blevin? The Spanish are heavy in Anatolian, as are Italians, and the Southern French, and Albanians like you, as a subset of Greek,s are just as high in it as Greeks. Even the English and the Germans are about 40% Anatolian in that graph. Then you can add in all the CHG.

So, I fail to see what point you're making.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't know either. I am not sure why he is linking an article by Nassim Taleb, that is refuted here by using logic, and evidence.
 
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