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Genetic Origins of Minoans and Mycenaeans

Jovialis said:
Greece_Neolithic vs Antonio M. et al 2019 samples.

Consider this block quote from the Antonio paper:




The closest are the Neolithic samples.

[TABLE="class: distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]7.72962483[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R9____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]8.68883767[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R18___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]9.90131809[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R3____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]10.96392266[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R17___Neolithic_____Ripabianca_di_Monterado[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]11.17630977[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]R8____Neolithic_____Grotta_Continenza[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD800, align: right"]8.64348888[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCD00, align: right"]8.97400691[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9300, align: right"]10.67560303[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4200, align: right"]13.06422596[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3F00, align: right"]13.15328096[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Pel oponnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]10.92806936[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6D00, align: right"]11.78013582[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5200, align: right"]12.59648364[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4E00, align: right"]12.70569557[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.30693804[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances, width: 0"]
[TR]
[TH="align: center"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: center"]I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Pelopo nnese[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.05129857[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7700, align: right"]11.49379398[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.67572483[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.48416031[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Sephardic_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0D00, align: right"]14.61318925[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I can't wait to see the Classical Era Greeks from Greece and the islands.
 
Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.
 
Angela said:
Great info. Thanks, Jovialis. I was pleased to see I got a bit from Ripabianca Neolithic. :)

Modern populations are pretty close to Mycenaeans, though.
Click to expand...


I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.
 
Pax Augusta said:
I don’t want to be the usual buzzkill but pretty close is something at least under 5 as distance.
Click to expand...

Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)

K12b

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #81FF00, align: right"]3.80336693[/TD]
[TD]TSI30[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]5.63808478[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C9FF00, align: right"]5.91498943[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.22841874[/TD]
[TD]N_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]8.70606685[/TD]
[TD]O_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC900, align: right"]9.07843048[/TD]
[TD]C_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0016, align: right"]15.65395797[/TD]
[TD]Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.55905464[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF005F, align: right"]17.79110733[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0067, align: right"]18.03087352[/TD]
[TD]S_Italian_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0068, align: right"]18.06927779[/TD]
[TD]Galicia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0078, align: right"]18.52765501[/TD]
[TD]Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF007F, align: right"]18.72087605[/TD]
[TD]Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0082, align: right"]18.81197491[/TD]
[TD]Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0098, align: right"]19.46430322[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF009D, align: right"]19.60699875[/TD]
[TD]Canarias[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00B7, align: right"]20.37582882[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_Y_Leon[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00BD, align: right"]20.56794594[/TD]
[TD]Spaniards[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EB, align: right"]21.91470739[/TD]
[TD]Cataluna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EE, align: right"]21.99649972[/TD]
[TD]Spanish[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00EF, align: right"]22.02617534[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF00FC, align: right"]22.39748870[/TD]
[TD]Ashkenazy_Jews[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F900FF, align: right"]22.67453197[/TD]
[TD]Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F500FF, align: right"]22.78799245[/TD]
[TD]Valencia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EE00FF, align: right"]22.99709547[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarians[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
dosas said:
Jovialis, the classical age Greek colonist from Emporion (Empuries) is the GEDMATCH kit #FM5677291, as far as I know, if you want to add it to your list. I don't know if it's still available (I don't use GEDMATCH) but it's worth checking it out.

PS. I would like to add also that Empuries was a colony of Phocaeans, from the city of Phocaea in Asia Minor. The Phocaeans (Central Greece) were mostly Dorian in their origin. A significant number of Phocic cities, however, had different origins. Nevertheless, all the cities of Phocis were gradually connected to the commonwealth because of common interests and common enemies.

So, even though we don't actually have a Dorian proper sample, if we use the Empuries2 sample as a proxy, it wouldn't seem that the Dorians were significantly different (ie, more 'northern-shifted') compared to the rest of the Mycenean cluster.
Click to expand...

He is very close to I9041

xzkB75g.png


Code: 
[FONT=Verdana]FM5677291(Gedmatch)_Greek_Colonist_Empuries,2.20,0,3.49,0.06,35.23,9.17,0,0,11.48,0,38.05,0.33[/FONT]
 
Angela said:
Well then, I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to Central Italians, who are at a 9 for me, and as for Southern Italians and Sicilians, they're not even from the same planet? :)
Click to expand...


Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0
 
Pax Augusta said:
Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0
Click to expand...

I've ran the Dodecad K12b Italian samples against the Ancient Roman samples;

Let's move discussion to a more appropriate thread:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/39706-Ancient-Rome-Test-V1-0?p=595087&viewfull=1#post595087
 
Pax Augusta said:
Central Italian in K12b is not an academic sample. All the averages on K12b labelled as _D are averages based on results collected by Diekenes himself through his own blog. _D means Dodecad of course.

Another average not based on academic samples is O_Italian.

I personally am not so convinced that K12b is the best calculator, and neither is its spreadhseet. Complex question in any case.

However, there is always a way to check through PCAs.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GWhNZcfTQ2hMSK9Ni1IqG7aXHB00SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit#gid=0
Click to expand...

I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

These are my results. I guess I'm not even "pretty close" to anyone south of Lazio.
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #66FF00, align: right"]2.99839957[/TD]
[TD]Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6BFF00, align: right"]3.15726147[/TD]
[TD]Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]3.38475996[/TD]
[TD]Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7DFF00, align: right"]3.67819249[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]4.30383550[/TD]
[TD]Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B1FF00, align: right"]5.21252338[/TD]
[TD]Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]6.16301874[/TD]
[TD]Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.22120567[/TD]
[TD]Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.24877588[/TD]
[TD]Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.80908217[/TD]
[TD]FrenchCorsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]7.16684031[/TD]
[TD]Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]7.74483053[/TD]
[TD]Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.55386462[/TD]
[TD]Friuli-VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB900, align: right"]9.55260174[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]10.37322997[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9C00, align: right"]10.40681507[/TD]
[TD]Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9700, align: right"]10.56576547[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8F00, align: right"]10.78628759[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.85248359[/TD]
[TD]Swiss-Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8100, align: right"]11.19184971[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.27902035[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7E00, align: right"]11.29719134[/TD]
[TD]Kosovo_Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7100, align: right"]11.66765186[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Eastern-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.33875196[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Plovdiv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.35486544[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.46015249[/TD]
[TD]Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.67167708[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Alexandroupoli[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.72158795[/TD]
[TD]Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.80389394[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.07666624[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_North-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3D00, align: right"]13.20890916[/TD]
[TD]North_Macedonian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.28875464[/TD]
[TD]Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.29574368[/TD]
[TD]Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.36336784[/TD]
[TD]Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3000, align: right"]13.58006259[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Kazanlik[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.74839991[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.87101294[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.87630715[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Southwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]13.93366427[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]13.99984821[/TD]
[TD]GR_Peloponese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1A00, align: right"]14.24799284[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.33496425[/TD]
[TD]Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.46980995[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Kavala[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0D00, align: right"]14.60548869[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0900, align: right"]14.72815331[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0800, align: right"]14.76043021[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Serres[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0600, align: right"]14.82099524[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0005, align: right"]15.13495953[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Andros_Island[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0007, align: right"]15.21457854[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Southeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0010, align: right"]15.46256447[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #84FF00, align: right"]3.86931518[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]4.23288318[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emiliaromagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]4.25635995[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #98FF00, align: right"]4.46072864[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]6.50442926[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]6.55881849[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.83303007[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]7.39247590[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]7.49916662[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEE00, align: right"]8.00542941[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Friuli[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]8.40202357[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCE00, align: right"]8.93296703[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBD00, align: right"]9.44547922[/TD]
[TD]Kosovo_Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBA00, align: right"]9.53782470[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.78762484[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.82057534[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.17207452[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.84424732[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.25753970[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]12.44466151[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]12.56755744[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]12.64764850[/TD]
[TD]GR_Peloponese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.91083653[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3D00, align: right"]13.21623623[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.88518275[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.
 
Angela said:
I used K12b because that's what was used to give a result of around 8 for some Mycenaeans to Southern Italians Sicilians.

I'm sure the data for the ancient Greeks can be converted to Eurogenes K13 for comparison.

These are my results. I guess I'm not "pretty close" to anyone south .
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #66FF00, align: right"]2.99839957[/TD]
[TD]Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #6BFF00, align: right"]3.15726147[/TD]
[TD]Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #73FF00, align: right"]3.38475996[/TD]
[TD]Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7DFF00, align: right"]3.67819249[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #92FF00, align: right"]4.30383550[/TD]
[TD]Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B1FF00, align: right"]5.21252338[/TD]
[TD]Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]6.16301874[/TD]
[TD]Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.22120567[/TD]
[TD]Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]6.24877588[/TD]
[TD]Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.80908217[/TD]
[TD]FrenchCorsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F4FF00, align: right"]7.16684031[/TD]
[TD]Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF700, align: right"]7.74483053[/TD]
[TD]Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDB00, align: right"]8.55386462[/TD]
[TD]Friuli-VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB900, align: right"]9.55260174[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9D00, align: right"]10.37322997[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9C00, align: right"]10.40681507[/TD]
[TD]Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9700, align: right"]10.56576547[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8F00, align: right"]10.78628759[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.85248359[/TD]
[TD]Swiss-Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8100, align: right"]11.19184971[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.27902035[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7E00, align: right"]11.29719134[/TD]
[TD]Kosovo_Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7100, align: right"]11.66765186[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Eastern-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.33875196[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Plovdiv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5A00, align: right"]12.35486544[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5600, align: right"]12.46015249[/TD]
[TD]Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4F00, align: right"]12.67167708[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Alexandroupoli[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4D00, align: right"]12.72158795[/TD]
[TD]Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4B00, align: right"]12.80389394[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.07666624[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_North-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3D00, align: right"]13.20890916[/TD]
[TD]North_Macedonian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.28875464[/TD]
[TD]Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3A00, align: right"]13.29574368[/TD]
[TD]Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3800, align: right"]13.36336784[/TD]
[TD]Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3000, align: right"]13.58006259[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Kazanlik[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.74839991[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.87101294[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.87630715[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Southwest[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]13.93366427[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2200, align: right"]13.99984821[/TD]
[TD]GR_Peloponese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1A00, align: right"]14.24799284[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_North-Macedonia-Highlander[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1700, align: right"]14.33496425[/TD]
[TD]Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.46980995[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Kavala[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0D00, align: right"]14.60548869[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0900, align: right"]14.72815331[/TD]
[TD]Portuguese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0800, align: right"]14.76043021[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian_Serres[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0600, align: right"]14.82099524[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Extremadura[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0005, align: right"]15.13495953[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Andros_Island[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0007, align: right"]15.21457854[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_Southeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0010, align: right"]15.46256447[/TD]
[TD]Turk_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


K15-I'm not even pretty close to the Veneto on this one...
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #84FF00, align: right"]3.86931518[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #90FF00, align: right"]4.23288318[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Emiliaromagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #91FF00, align: right"]4.25635995[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #98FF00, align: right"]4.46072864[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]6.50442926[/TD]
[TD]North_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]6.55881849[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]6.83303007[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FBFF00, align: right"]7.39247590[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00, align: right"]7.49916662[/TD]
[TD]France_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEE00, align: right"]8.00542941[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Friuli[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]8.40202357[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFCE00, align: right"]8.93296703[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBD00, align: right"]9.44547922[/TD]
[TD]Kosovo_Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBA00, align: right"]9.53782470[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB100, align: right"]9.78762484[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-South[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFB000, align: right"]9.82057534[/TD]
[TD]Albanian-North[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA400, align: right"]10.17207452[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8D00, align: right"]10.84424732[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Trentino[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.25753970[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]12.44466151[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5300, align: right"]12.56755744[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]12.64764850[/TD]
[TD]GR_Peloponese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4700, align: right"]12.91083653[/TD]
[TD]Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3D00, align: right"]13.21623623[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2600, align: right"]13.88518275[/TD]
[TD]Italy_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

For K13 vs K15, how do I decide which is "better" or closer to the truth? Is it the one where I like the results better?

Of maybe it's semantics. Is a distance of 8 great? No, but it's the best score the Mycenaeans get with any modern population, and better than I get with some modern Italian populations. We'll see if the guys can change the data for the ancient Greeks to Eurogenes K13 and K15 if they have a chance to see if they're closer or further away.
Click to expand...


K13 is clearly more reliable and stable than K15.

Ancient Greek samples (Mycenaean) were uploaded to Gedmatch a long time ago and their results have been published several times.

Why should you be close to the Veneto? Veneto is one of the regions with perhaps the greatest internal differences, having Veneto maritime coasts, plains, hills, Alps and even linguistic minorities, and bordering with the the Germanic and Slavic world. This kinda variabilty is also reflected in the genetic results. So it is obvious that a Veneto average can vary a lot, and it depends on which samples from Veneto are used to represent it.


Just my humble opinion.
 
I thought better of it.

I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

The relationship is there, and nothing will change it.
 
Angela said:
There's nothing humble about your delivery, I must tell you.

You don't like any of the results from any of the calculators or any of the papers, really.

I think you should quit your day job and do your own research and analyses.

I'm waiting for your revelations with baited breach.
Click to expand...


I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.
 
Pax Augusta said:
I think Argumentum ad hominem could be avoided, Angela.

Of course, there is nothing humble in my opinion. I was just sarcastic.
Click to expand...

We can do without the sarcasm too.

My comment was absolutely accurate, as you have now confirmed.

If you're going to go down that road, expect a response.
 
Pax Augusta said:
At least I have a sense of humor about himself. You've changed your message, admitting you were wrong.
Click to expand...

I haven't changed my opinion at all, or admitted I was "wrong" about anything. (Not that I don't when I am). I said you're entitled to your own opinion. There's a difference.

"I thought better of it.

I'll just say that there's nothing humble about your delivery.

You don't think a distance of 8 is "pretty close". Great. You're entitled to judge for your own purposes what is "pretty close" for a modern comparison to ancients.

I'll repeat: The closest modern population to the Mycenaeans, at a respectable distance of 8 in Dodecad, given the age of the samples, is Southern Italians/Sicilians.

The relationship is there, and nothing will change it."

My comment that "I thought better of it" was about a rather blistering post which I deleted.

I don't think we need to carry on this unedifying display in front of the board any longer.

You have something to say to me personally, do it in private.
 
my results for K13 ancients

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]TorzioK13[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5.14279107[/TD]
[TD]IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.21271793[/TD]
[TD]CL36_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.47605511[/TD]
[TD]SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.54191620[/TD]
[TD]SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.62072831[/TD]
[TD]RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.71743481[/TD]
[TD]CL49_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.83749960[/TD]
[TD]DA195_Hungary_Scythian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.02793871[/TD]
[TD]SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.32675207[/TD]
[TD]DA199_Late_Medieval_Hungary[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.40845408[/TD]
[TD]SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.55622580[/TD]
[TD]SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.69714321[/TD]
[TD]SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.70789871[/TD]
[TD]CL23_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.38891900[/TD]
[TD]SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.47101367[/TD]
[TD]SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.66252038[/TD]
[TD]IA_Civitavecchia_R474[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.66802979[/TD]
[TD]SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.28309292[/TD]
[TD]I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.32287751[/TD]
[TD]scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.45008134[/TD]
[TD]CL94_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.54462896[/TD]
[TD]CL57_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.83154190[/TD]
[TD]ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11.10855526[/TD]
[TD]SZ18_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11.34702604[/TD]
[TD]CL47_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11.45461916[/TD]
[TD]I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



Target: TorzioK13
Distance: 1.0498% / 1.04976470 | ADC: 0.25x
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]27.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]23.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]DA195_Hungary_Scythian[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ45.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]CL53_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH]trentinoClesK13[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4.99492743[/TD]
[TD]SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.58473993[/TD]
[TD]IA_Protovillanovan_Martinsicuro_R1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6.88456970[/TD]
[TD]SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.26103298[/TD]
[TD]ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.46621725[/TD]
[TD]IA_Civitavecchia_R474[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.58897226[/TD]
[TD]SZ36.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7.81855485[/TD]
[TD]RISE254_Szazhalombatta_Foldvar_Hungary_3631_years_GHIJK_Z12203_J1c9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.14178727[/TD]
[TD]I7424_morisco[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.14660666[/TD]
[TD]CL36_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.25780843[/TD]
[TD]I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.84250530[/TD]
[TD]SZ37_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8.90200539[/TD]
[TD]I7498_Muslim_Iberian_1000_1100_CE_E1b1b1a1b1a_H3a1_2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.50753385[/TD]
[TD]CL23_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.52839966[/TD]
[TD]I7424_morisco2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.57641895[/TD]
[TD]I12647_iberia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.73838282[/TD]
[TD]CL49_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.77061411[/TD]
[TD]I12647_iberia2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9.95622418[/TD]
[TD]SZ28_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.27542700[/TD]
[TD]SZ32_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.51157933[/TD]
[TD]scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.66541138[/TD]
[TD]I12516_iberia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.93564813[/TD]
[TD]SZ1.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]10.94344096[/TD]
[TD]IA_Civitavecchia_R473[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11.32243348[/TD]
[TD]CrusaderSI41KingdomofJerusalem[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11.95757919[/TD]
[TD]SZ27_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]



arget: trentinoClesK13
Distance: 0.9534% / 0.95336658 | ADC: 0.25x
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_6-th_century[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]11.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]CL49_collegno_italy_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]9.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ43.SG_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ6_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]1.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ31_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]SZ20_szolad_hungary_longobard[/TD]
 
dosas said:
How do we know the Dorians brought Z2103 into Greece, we don't have a sample from them. The classical age Empuries2 sample plots right into the Mycenean cluster.
Click to expand...

Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
 
Dianatomia said:
Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
Click to expand...

Yes, Greek colonists from Phocaea (Ionia) founded Massalia (modern-day Marseille, in France), Emporion and Rhoda (modern-day Empúries and Roses, in Catalonia, Spain) and Alalia in Corsica. They clashed against the Etruscans, but there is evidence that many Greek Phoceans artists and merchants had settled in southern Etruria after the Persian conquest of Ionia.
 
Dianatomia said:
Wasn't Empuries settled by Greeks from Asia Minor (Ionia)? Anyway, very hard to speculate on the origin of the specimen in the first place. Just a few samples of Hellenistic or Classical Greeks will do. Preferably from mainland Greece. Also some specimens from North/central Greece will also enlighten us somewhat. Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a few more Mycenaeans either. We have only got four. Oh well.
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Yeah, but Phocaea itself was founded by Phocian Greeks from central Greece, under the leadership of Athenians. Identity wise they can prove to be a mess, bearing in mind that the original Phocians were Dorians, but Phocaea of Asia Minor was Ionic-speaking. And above all that, Phocaea was essentially within the Aeolic region (of Asia Minor), or at the very least on the borders of it. As for the rest, we all agree, we are desperate for Classical Greek samples from a number of regions, and some more Mycenaeans shouldn't be out of the equation.
 
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